Law, disrupted

John is joined by Courtney Bowman, the Global Director of Privacy and Civil Liberties at Palantir, one of the foremost companies in the world specializing in software platforms for big data analytics. They discuss the emerging trends in AI regulation. Courtney explains the AI Act recently passed by the EU Parliament, including the four levels of risk it assesses for different AI systems and the different regulatory obligations imposed on each risk level, how the Act treats general purpose AI systems and how the final Act evolved in response to lobbying by emerging European companies in the AI space. They discuss whether the EU AI Act will become the global standard international companies default to because the European market is too large to abandon. Courtney also explains recent federal regulatory developments in the U.S. including the framework for AI put out by the National Institute of Science and Technology, the AI Bill of Rights announced by the White House which calls for voluntary compliance to certain principles by industry and the Executive Order on Safe, Secure and Trustworthy Development and Use of Artificial Intelligence which requires each department of the federal government to develop its own plan for the use and deployment of AI. They also discuss the wide range of state level AI legislative initiatives and the leading role California has played in this process. Finally, they discuss the upcoming issues legislatures will need to address including translating principles like accountability, fairness and transparency into concrete best practices, instituting testing, evaluation and validation methodologies to ensure that AI systems are doing what they're supposed to do in a reliable and trustworthy way, and addressing concerns around maintaining AI systems over time as the data used by the system continuously evolves over time until it no longer accurately represents the world that it was originally designed to represent. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Ben Lee, Chief Legal Officer of Reddit. They discuss Ben’s extensive career as a senior in-house lawyer in several of the most successful tech companies in the world. After earning degrees in physics and economics, Ben worked at IBM's research lab, where he was intrigued by the way lawyers grappled with the impacts of technology on society. Ben then went to law school and began his career as a litigator at a New York law firm but left to work at the Legal Aid Society. Financial realities eventually led him back to private practice and then to a career in-house. At AT&T and NEC, Ben worked closely with pioneering computer scientists and handled complex IP matters involving emerging technologies like machine learning and AI. When he moved to Google, Ben advised on major projects like Chrome, Android, and Google Cloud at very early stages when their success was far from assured. Ben later joined Twitter during its early, fast-paced growth phase, managing litigation, IP, employment, and regulatory issues. He led Twitter’s lawsuit against the U.S. government over transparency for national security requests. Later, at Airbnb, Ben tackled challenging regulatory landscapes worldwide, and at Plaid, he advocated for consumers’ rights to financial data. At Reddit, Ben now oversees all legal functions for a vast online platform with over 100,000 user-created and moderated communities. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act is vital to Reddit’s success. It provides that online users and platforms are generally not liable for content created by others. Section 230 protects Reddit’s content moderation decisions, the decisions of its volunteer community moderators and its individual users. Finally, Ben advises young in-house lawyers to remember that their job is not to just point out all potential legal risks in a project, but to help their teams manage those risks so they can build great products and move companies forward. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Susheel Kirpalani, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s New York office and founder and Chairperson of the firm’s Bankruptcy and Restructuring Group. They discuss restructuring litigation, including fraudulent transfer litigation and valuation disputes, and how it differs from commercial litigation. They also discuss the importance of building alliances with other stakeholders in the company, how much the practice is based on relationships and trust, and the opportunities that exist to design creative securities that allow a company to survive but also allow its creditors substantial recoveries. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John Quinn is joined by Jack Neumark, Managing Partner and Co-Head of Specialty Finance of Fortress Investment Group and founder of its Legal Assets Group. They discuss the emergence of legal assets as a distinct investment class. Fortress is a leading player in litigation finance with over $6.5 billion deployed in legal assets and a current portfolio of approximately $3 billion. While most litigation funders typically invest in individual cases, Fortress invests in diversified portfolios of litigation claims and contingent fee receivables. Fortress underwrites and finances these portfolios the same way it does other specialty finance products. To underwrite a portfolio, Fortress has lawyers examine the cases in the portfolio to determine how strong and likely to settle they are. They consider factors including the defendants and how creditworthy they are, the damage theories asserted, how far the case has progressed, what motion practice has revealed, and whether related criminal charges have been filed. They also consider the law firms involved, the judge, and the venue. Fortress also conducts quantitative analyses of the historical results of similar cases based on publicly available data and proprietary data it has accumulated in the 15 years it has invested in legal assets. Legal asset portfolios are attractive to many investors because the results of lawsuits are less subject to the performance of the economy in general than many other classes of assets. Also, because the market for legal assets is still developing, sophisticated investors can often obtain better returns than in more mature markets. Jack believes that as the industry matures, especially with potential regulatory changes around law firm ownership, litigation finance will become more mainstream and integrated into broader investment strategies. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Christian Athanasoulas, KPMG’s Global Head of International Tax and M&A Tax and U.S. Tax Practice Leader – Services. They discuss the groundbreaking shift in the U.S. legal industry arising from Arizona’s decision to allow non-lawyers to have ownership interests in law firms. This move aligns the U.S. with countries like the U.K. and Australia, where non-lawyers have been permitted to own law firms for years. KPMG has successfully operated legal practices in over 80 countries, but U.S. regulations previously prevented it from offering legal services alongside its consulting, tax, and advisory work. Arizona’s new rules allow KPMG to offer the non-legal services it typically offers clients together with related legal services performed by the new law firm. Previously, KPMG’s clients would have to retain law firms with no formal ties to KPMG for those services. Christian led the effort to establish KPMG U.S. Law, a wholly owned Arizona law firm under the KPMG umbrella. KPMG U.S. Law is an independent LLC with Arizona-licensed lawyers and a compliance officer to ensure adherence to legal ethics rules. Although owned by KPMG, the law firm maintains autonomy. It can assist clients with legal matters such as contract integration and regulatory compliance. KPMG U.S. Law leverages its parent company’s technological advancements, including AI-driven contract analysis and process automation, to improve efficiency in the provision of legal services. The new law firm will not engage in litigation. For matters outside of Arizona, it will co-counsel with lawyers admitted in the appropriate jurisdiction. While Arizona is currently the only state permitting non-lawyer ownership of law firms, other states are exploring the possibility of passing similar laws. The creation of KPMG U.S. Law could signal broader changes in the legal profession, potentially reshaping traditional law firm structures. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by John Nadolenco, Managing Partner of Mayer Brown’s Los Angeles office and Kelly Kramer, partner in Mayer Brown’s Washington, D.C. office. They discuss how John and Kelly won an eleven-year legal battle over the Bahia Emerald, the largest emerald in history. The 789-pound gemstone was illegally mined in Bahia, Brazil and smuggled into the U.S. The emerald first entered the U.S. in San Jose, California where the importers falsely declared it to be a piece of concrete with no value. It later surfaced in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, was transported several more times, and was eventually seized in Las Vegas by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department in 2014 when one party seeking to claim the emerald reported it stolen. This led to an action in Los Angeles Superior Court to determine the rightful owner. When news accounts of the action reached Brazil, the government contacted John and Kelly to intervene. They worked with the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) which filed a federal case in the District of Columbia invoking a little-known provision from the Patriot Act, which allowed the emerald to be frozen pending forfeiture. Meanwhile, Brazilian courts convicted those who illegally mined and exported the gemstone and, after years of appeals, issued a final forfeiture order. The DOJ then moved to enforce the Brazilian ruling, ultimately securing the emerald. The emerald is now set to be repatriated and displayed in a museum in Rio de Janeiro, bringing an end to one of the most extraordinary asset recovery cases in modern history. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Sean Fagan, the Chief Legal Officer of Citadel LLC, and a key legal figure at Citadel Securities. Citadel is the most profitable hedge fund globally while Citadel Securities is the dominant market maker, processing nearly one-third of U.S. equities and options trades. They discuss Sean’s insights into the unique legal challenges of these rapidly growing organizations. Sean has essentially four clients: Citadel, Citadel Securities, founder Ken Griffin, and Griffin’s family office. His responsibilities extend beyond legal oversight to include regulatory affairs and compliance and reflect the complexities of modern finance. Sean’s journey to Citadel was unconventional. He started as a litigator at Bartlett Beck, a boutique trial firm, where he spent nearly half his time in trial. He participated in high-profile cases, including Bush v. Gore, but ultimately realized that trial work was not his passion. A chance meeting with Ken Griffin led to an in-house opportunity at Citadel, where he has been for 20 years. In that time, Citadel has grown from 1,000 employees with $12 billion in AUM to 4,900 employees with $65 billion in AUM. The greatest challenges Sean has at Citadel are building the right teams to meet the demands of rapidly growing markets around the world, developing technology to ensure regulatory compliance across trillions of transactions every day, and maintaining high standards in an organization that is growing as rapidly as Citadel. Citadel has engaged in several high-profile legal battles, including lawsuits against the SEC and IRS, reflecting Citadel’s willingness to challenge regulations it views as unreasonable and unduly burdensome. In retaining outside counsel, Sean looks for lawyers with a strategic vision who can articulate a clear path to winning cases. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by David Elsberg, the Founding Partner of two law firms, most recently Ellsberg, Baker & Moruri. They discuss the experience of starting a law firm, including the motivations, challenges, and rewards of building a law firm from the ground up. David is a former Quinn Emanuel partner. He was inspired to start his own firms by the accounts of John and other Quinn Emanuel partners of the satisfaction they felt from building something new. He wanted the challenge of starting a firm and learning the business side of legal practice. Although running a law firm requires a different skill set from practicing law, starting a law firm is not particularly difficult compared to other businesses. Success depends primarily on assembling the right people. At first, David was intimidated by the non-legal aspects of starting a business, such as setting up payroll and office infrastructure, but found that hiring skilled professionals made the process manageable. The most critical factor for success is selecting lawyers who are not only talented, but work well together. Before starting a new firm, founders should carefully disengage from their current firm. They need to walk a tightrope in how they communicate their departure to their current firm’s management, colleagues, and clients. Boutique litigation firms now attract high quality associates because they offer young lawyers more trial experience and closer client relationships. Many clients also appreciate the hands-on approach of a smaller firm without the bureaucracy of a large organization. David’s firm prioritizes trial work, handling high-stakes disputes, particularly in finance. He has found that, while it involves risk, the rewards of independence and creativity in a start-up firm are significant. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

In the final episode in this series recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by Richard Ma, Founder of the Dahui law firm; Xiao Liu, Quinn Emanuel’s Chair of China Practice and Chief Representative of the Beijing Office; and Yixuan Zhu, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Beijing office. They discuss building their respective firms, establishing their firms’ cultures, global expansion strategies, and challenges in cross-border legal practice. Dahui was established to better serve clients, particularly in fast-evolving new economy industries like technology, media, telecommunications, and healthcare. Dahui adopted a boutique approach—being the best at what it did and providing full-service legal support to its clients. Expanding carefully, the firm analyzes whether expanding into a new city will assist its clients and whether it can attract top tier local talent. The Chinese legal market is also trending towards firms expanding into “second-tier” Chinese cities such as Wuhan, Nanjing, and Chongqing where an increasing number of disputes arise. Quinn Emanuel’s global expansion has been largely talent-driven and opportunistic, seeking exceptional lawyers to open offices rather than following a predetermined plan. In addition, the globalization of business has led to a globalization of disputes with proceedings in multiple jurisdictions and key witnesses living around the world. Firms with talented lawyers throughout the world are simply better suited to effectively represent clients in such cases. Both firms work to maintain firm cultures that emphasizes competitiveness and client service. Quinn Emanuel has a tradition of sending firm wide "victory emails" to celebrate case wins and instill a results-driven mindset. Dahui values commitment to precision and professionalism, ensuring high standards in legal work. On the evolving Chinese legal market, Dahui bridges the gap between international clients and China’s regulatory landscape, correcting misconceptions and ensuring successful investments and dispute resolutions. As Chinese companies continue to expand globally, demand for international dispute resolution will likely rise. Legal complexities stemming from U.S.-China tensions will also likely provide opportunities for experienced litigators to navigate shifting regulatory and geopolitical landscapes. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

In the second of a series of podcasts recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by three in-house lawyers from major Chinese and multinational corporations: Victor Shen, Chief Legal Officer of Henkel China; Liu Zhen, Vice President Legal Department of Xiaomi; and Li Hua, senior legal counsel of a Fortune 500 energy company. They discuss intellectual property, regulatory and compliance issues in China as well as the evolving legal market. Non-practicing entities (NPEs) or “patent trolls”, which do not share the interests that patent owners and implementors have in maintaining a sustainable IP ecosystem, are a problem in China just as they are in the West. Building a strong legal strategy for IP involves maintaining inter-disciplinary teams that combine legal talent with key scientists within the company. IP disputes increasingly involve proceedings in both the U.S. and Europe. Antitrust issues do not arise in IP cases nearly as much in China as they do in the U.S. Regulatory compliance issues, especially regarding U.S. export controls, sanctions, and data security laws, are very hot topics in China. Foreign investment restrictions and lengthy review processes in multiple jurisdictions have forced companies to abandon deals. In-house lawyers need to be mentally agile and proactive. Effective legal teams must also develop strong internal compliance frameworks and maintain close relationships with regulators. Western law firms have withdrawn from China because of reduced foreign investment, the increasing capabilities of Chinese firms, and the need to retain local Chinese lawyers to represent clients in court or before regulatory agencies. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

In the first of a series of podcasts recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by Professor Gao Xiqing, the former Vice Chairman, President and Chief Investment Officer of the China Investment Corporation, the largest Chinese Sovereign Wealth. They discuss Prof. Gao’s extraordinary career from his early days building a railroad in rural China during the Cultural Revolution to earning his JD at Duke and becoming the one of the first Chinese lawyers to pass the New York bar and work at a major Wall Street firm. Prof. Gao’s work on Wall Street led to him explaining, as a third year associate, the causes of the Black Friday stock market crash to Chinese business and government leaders. Later he was called back to China to design its first stock exchange and the Chinese regulator equivalent to the SEC. They also discuss Prof. Gao’s role in running the China Investment Corporation (CIC), one of the world's largest sovereign wealth funds. CIC invests only in private businesses outside of China, purchases less than a 10% stake in those companies, and splits its investments roughly evenly between publicly traded companies and private equity. Finally, they discuss Prof. Gao’s perspective on Sino-American relations. He believes that, viewed in perspective, the two countries have grown much closer since the days of the Cold War and that common cultural values, such as the drive to work hard and achieve, will lead to closer relations in the future. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by renowned criminal defense lawyer attorney Ben Brafman, Founder of Brafman & Associates. They discuss Ben’s 45-year career, trial strategies, and reflections on the criminal justice system. Ben, who has tried more than 75 cases, gained prominence in the 1980s and 90s when he defended major criminal trials, particularly organized crime and white-collar cases. He was in trial almost continuously for 11 years. He attributes his success to meticulous preparation and emphasizes that there are no shortcuts in trial practice. Ben describes the evolution of criminal trials over the last 40 years, noting that trials are shorter and less frequent today due to an increase in plea deals. John and Ben also discuss trial strategies. Many cases are won on cross. A successful cross requires deep knowledge of every piece of evidence in the case. He describes one case in which he essentially memorized months of taped conversations to dismantle a key witness’s credibility. Ben often uses cross-examinations of prosecution witnesses to establish parts of the defense and contradict the testimony of other witnesses. Most cases today are won or lost on emails or texts because they are so prevalent and an incriminating email or text by a defendant cannot be discredited on cross-examination. Ben also reflects on some of his most notable cases, including the acquittal of Sean "Diddy" Combs on gun and bribery charges in 2001 and the acquittal of nightclub mogul Peter Gation after an eight-week racketeering trial. Criminal defense often takes an emotional toll on the criminal defense lawyer, who is witness to the devastating impact criminal prosecutions have on families and personal reputations. Finally, John and Ben discuss criminal justice reform. Ben criticizes mandatory sentencing minimums laws and advocates for judicial discretion to prevent unjustly harsh sentences. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Michael Ng, partner at Kobre & Kim. They discuss the $604 million verdict Michael recently won in a trade secrets case in Alameda County Superior Court in California. The punitive damages phase of the trial is expected to take place in the Spring. The case centered on allegations that Phillips 66 misappropriated Propel Fuels’ trade secrets while conducting due diligence for a potential acquisition that ultimately did not proceed. Michael explains that Propel Fuels, a pioneer in renewable fuels, accused Phillips 66 of using proprietary data, including financial models, market research, and operational strategies, to replicate Propel’s business. Despite Phillips 66's claims that it had no need for Propel’s information, Michael and his team demonstrated that the trade secrets were not only accessed but directly used to launch Phillips 66’s renewable fuels business. The evidence Michael’s team presented included internal Phillips 66 documents and testimony that showed the rapid deployment of Phillips 66’s business mirroring Propel’s proprietary model. Michael reviews the strategic decisions he made that led to the verdict, including choosing to proceed in state court rather than federal court, providing a detailed pretrial trade secrets disclosure, selecting jurors with technical expertise, and proactively calling a key defense witness during Propel’s case-in-chief. He also describes how the trial team effectively explained the complex market and regulatory dynamics of renewable fuels through their clients’ testimony and expert witnesses. John and Michael also discuss Propel’s damages case, which was based on an unjust enrichment theory that emphasized the head start Phillips 66 gained by leveraging Propel’s trade secrets. Michael describes internal Phillips 66 communications stating that Propel’s information gave Phillips 66 a ten year head start on entering the renewable fuels market. Finally, John and Michael also discuss broader trends in trade secrets litigation, including the growing importance of trade secret law in emerging technologies like AI and machine learning, where trade secrets often offer more protection than patents. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Catrin Griffiths and Christian Smith, the Editor-in-Chief and Litigation Editor of The Lawyer. They discuss legal journalism in the UK. John, Catrin and Christian agree that UK legal reporting is more analytical and critical of law firm strategies than U.S. legal journalism. They attribute this to the UK’s centralized legal market in London and a British journalistic culture that favors accountability and critical analysis. They explain that The Lawyer, originally a print magazine, has evolved into a digital platform combining news, data, and insight, providing in-depth analysis of law firms' performance and strategy. The publication operates like a financial news outlet dedicated to the legal sector, reflecting the industry’s significant contribution to the UK economy. It covers everything from major legal trends to firm strategies and even lighter, cultural stories within firms. They also discuss the growing dominance of U.S. law firms in London, noting that American firms often outpace UK firms, perhaps due to longer working hours and more streamlined management. Catrin explains that UK firms historically thrived with strong infrastructure and global networks, though they now face challenges adapting to market changes. They also address cultural differences, such as the early retirement age at UK firms, contrasting with U.S. firms where partners often work well into their 70s. Catrin and Christian also explain the importance of maintaining authenticity when law firms engage with journalists. They advise against corporate jargon and encourage honest dialogue. Finally, they discuss how stories about small quirky aspects of a firm’s culture can often reflect broader trends and resonate with readers. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Jacob Buchdahl, partner at Susman Godfrey. They discuss the landmark $1.6 billion judgment Jacob recently won in New York state court on behalf of BML Properties against China Construction America, Inc. (CCA). The case concerned allegations of fraud and breach of contract over the failed development of the Baha Mar Resort, a luxury property in the Bahamas. Jacob explains that BML Properties envisioned the Baha Mar Resort as a competitor to the Atlantis resort in the Bahamas. Following the 2007 financial crisis, BML secured funding from a Chinese policy bank, which required hiring CCA as the contractor as part of China’s Belt and Road initiative. CCA, a subsidiary of the state-owned China State Construction Engineering Corporation, also became an investor in the project. The relationship soured as construction delays mounted, culminating in late 2014 when CCA promised that the resort would open in March 2015. Relying on these assurances, BML incurred significant expenses to prepare for the opening. However, internal CCA documents obtained during discovery showed that CCA knew it could not meet the deadline and withheld this information. Worse, the documents suggested CCA intentionally delayed completion to maintain leverage over BML, leading to a liquidity crisis, bankruptcy, and the loss of BML’s $800 million investment. Jacob explains his legal strategy, including narrowing the case to focus on fraudulent acts at the critical late stages of the project and contractual breaches that were clearly distinguishable from the fraud allegations. He explains that the trial featured crucial evidence from internal communications and expert testimony on damages and financial mismanagement. He also explains that the judgment is nearly twice BML’s damages because of New York’s high pre-trial interest rates. Despite CCA’s appeal and potential bankruptcy, Jacob remains optimistic about enforcing the judgment and securing justice for his client. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Mark your calendars for January 5, 2025, as we bring the legal world’s most exciting conversations to life in Beijing! Join John Quinn and some of China’s most prominent legal figures for an exclusive live podcast series recording and fan meetup. John and his guests will discuss the opportunities and challenges of Chinese companies going global, the evolving trends in the legal markets of China and the U.S., and John’s own extraordinary journey as a leading litigator and the founder of the “Most Feared Law Firm in the World.” Stay tuned over the next few days as we unveil a lineup of special guests! 📅 Date: January 5, 2025 (Sunday afternoon) 📍 Location: Chaoyang District, Beijing (Details upon registration) Register NOW! Seats are limited—don’t miss your chance to engage with the brightest minds in the legal industry! 2025年1月5日，我们与您相约北京，共赴法律界的视听盛宴！ 昆鹰创始合伙人John Quinn将携手几位中国法律界的重量级嘉宾，为您带来一场别开生面的“中国特别系列”线下播客录制活动和粉丝见面会。John将和几位嘉宾“神仙对谈”，畅聊中国企业全球化的机遇与挑战、中美法律市场的新趋势，以及John Quinn自己作为诉讼律师及“全球最令人畏惧的律所”创始人的精彩故事。接下来几天，神秘特邀嘉宾将陆续揭晓，精彩不容错过！ 📅 时间：2025年1月5日周日下午 📍 地点：北京朝阳区（具体地点报名后通知） *本次活动不进行直播，届时现场将提供同声传译 席位有限，立即报名，与法律界顶尖人物面对面交流！ Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by one of the most famous litigators in the world, David Boies, Chairman and Founding Partner of Boies Schiller Flexner. They discuss David’s career, unique aspects of trial work, and the challenges of transitioning leadership in law firms. David describes his early years at Cravath, Swaine & Moore, LLP, where he became a partner in 1972, and his founding of Boies Schiller in 1997. He candidly discusses the aging process, especially the balance that exists between somewhat diminishing memory and the ever-improving judgment that comes with experience. Despite plans to step down as Chairman of his firm at the end of the year, David remains engaged in high-stakes litigation, particularly cases which may improve society, such as marriage equality and sex trafficking litigation. John and David also discuss trial advocacy. David believes that trials are both morality plays and peculiar searches for truth, shaped by a unique decision-making process that excludes jurors with specialized knowledge and forbids them from seeking knowledge in the ways they are accustomed to. They also discuss the unique pressures on courtroom lawyers, including the need to say everything right in real time, having a professional constantly trying to make you look bad, a jury that studies everything you say or do, and clients watching whose fortune or liberty depends on your performance. John and David also discuss the business of law, critiquing the hourly billing model and reflecting on the challenges of aligning client and firm interests in alternative fee arrangements. They agree that legal practice, while demanding, remains intellectually and personally rewarding. David also offers his thoughts on his late friend and sometimes adversary Ted Olson, whose integrity, warmth, and professionalism left a lasting impact. Finally, John and David discuss the possibility of a follow-up to David’s book Courting Justice, which chronicled significant cases from his career in light of the major cases he has had in the years since the book was published. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Dennis Hranitzky, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s New York office and Head of the firm’s Sovereign Litigation Practice; Alex Loomis, senior associate in Quinn Emanuel’s Boston office; and John Bash, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Austin office and Co-Chair of the firm’s National Appellate Practice. They discuss sovereign debt litigation, particularly the challenges of enforcing judgments against sovereign entities, and the team’s recent success executing on over $310 million in assets to enforce in judgments against Argentina. Dennis describes his decades-long history of enforcing judgments against Argentina, starting with a case for Elliott Management in 2002, where strategies like freezing Argentina out of capital markets and exposing corruption were key to recovery. The team’s recent case focused on the collateral for Argentina's “Brady” bonds, instruments from the 1990s designed to make sovereign debt more tradable. The enforcement litigation was not over the collateral itself, but on Argentina’s "reversionary interest" in the collateral. Alex explains how the team discovered and leveraged admissions from Argentina's SEC filings to identify attachable assets, including Argentina’s reversionary interest in zero-coupon bonds held in New York and Germany. The legal arguments involved nuanced interpretations of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, including whether the reversionary interest qualified as commercial property subject to attachment and whether its situs (location) was in New York or Germany. John Bash describes the appellate process, in which the Second Circuit upheld the attachment, agreeing that Argentina’s reversionary interest was a commercial asset located in New York. The discussion highlights the intellectual rigor required in such cases, involving intricate property law and sovereign immunity issues. The podcast concludes with reflections on Argentina’s expected attempt to obtain review by the U.S. Supreme Court and the professional satisfaction the team derived from winning such a unique and challenging case. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Robert Giuffra, Co-Chair of Sullivan & Cromwell. They discuss key challenges and strategies in the law firm industry. Robert highlights the evolving dynamics of law firms, noting that while traditional litigation practices are shrinking at some major firms, Sullivan & Cromwell has maintained and grown its litigation practice. This balanced approach has helped ensure consistent profits, even during economic downturns like 2008, by leveraging the firm’s strengths in financial, regulatory, and litigation work. They also discuss the complexities of managing equity partnerships and maintaining profitability amid changes in client-law firm relationships structures and the consolidation in the client marketplace. It is important to adapt to new market demands, such as expanding tech-related work and diversifying international outreach to include regions like Southeast Asia, India and the Middle East. John and Robert emphasize that it is also necessary to maintain a consistent firm culture that delivers high-quality legal services, noting that clients value creativity, cohesion, and competence. Robert shares anecdotes of being called in to resolve issues mishandled by other firms, attributing Sullivan & Cromwell’s success to the exceptional quality of its attorneys. They also discuss recruitment strategies, emphasizing the importance of attracting top talent and mentoring that talent as it develops, as well as carefully evaluating potential lateral hires to ensure they fit within the firm’s culture. The discussion concludes with reflections on leadership and the critical role of teamwork in professional services organizations. Robert references Harvard professor Jay Lorsch’s book Aligning the Stars and discusses its insights to managing talented individuals with strong egos. Ultimately, both John and Robert agree that a firm’s reputation rests on the quality of its people and their ability to consistently deliver superior results for clients. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Bill Price, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Los Angeles office, and Steig Olson, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s New York office. They discuss the landmark $110 million jury verdict, trebled to $330 million under antitrust law, Bill and Steig recently won in the U.S. District Court for the District of Northern California. The award will be increased to compensate for the costs and attorney's fees incurred by the plaintiff. The dispute arose when Commercial Metals, a Texas-based competitor of Pacific Steel, purchased and shut down California’s only rebar mill, creating a regional monopoly in the rebar market—a critical component in construction. Pacific Steel planned to disrupt this monopoly by building a state-of-the-art, environmentally friendly steel mill using advanced Italian technology. However, Commercial Metals allegedly pressured the Italian supplier to block plaintiff Pacific Steel from accessing the necessary technology by creating a 500-mile radius “exclusivity” zone for the Italian technology around the steel mill they bought and shut down. Victory at trial hinged on simplifying a complex antitrust narrative into a clear, compelling story. Bill and Steig narrowed their case by focusing on the core issues, cutting extraneous expert testimony to streamline the presentation. They used an adverse witness, the former CEO of Commercial Metals, to expose the company's internal communications, which highlighted its intent to maintain market dominance by obstructing Pacific Steel's plans. Bill’s cross-examinations proved pivotal in exposing contradictions and discrediting the defendants’ narrative. The defendants primarily argued that the relevant market extended beyond California and that their exclusivity agreements were standard competitive practices. However, the jury found these defenses unconvincing, especially in light of evidence of deliberate efforts to suppress local competition and inflate prices. They also discuss the skillful collaboration between Steig, a rising young trial attorney, and Bill, a seasoned litigator renowned for his many trial victories. This case underscores the importance of strategic focus, persuasive storytelling, and adaptability in high-stakes litigation. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm Host: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis Hyde Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi