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Macroeconomics has never been so ... delish! Macro and Cheese explores the progressive movement through the lens of Modern Monetary Theory, with hot and irreverent political takes, spotlights in activism, and the razor sharp musings of Real Progressives Founder and host Steve Grumbine. The cheese will flow as experts come in for a full, four course deep dive into the hot queso. Comfort Food for Thought!

Macroeconomics has never been so ... delish! Macro and Cheese explores the progressive movement through the lens of Modern Monetary Theory, with hot and irreverent political takes, spotlights in activism, and the razor sharp musings of Real Progressives Founder and host Steve Grumbine. The cheese will flow as experts come in for a full, four course deep dive into the hot queso. Comfort Food for Thought!
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Macroeconomics has never been so ... delish! Macro and Cheese explores the progressive movement through the lens of Modern Monetary Theory, with hot and irreverent political takes, spotlights in activism, and the razor sharp musings of Real Progressives Founder and host Steve Grumbine. The cheese will flow as experts come in for a full, four course deep dive into the hot queso. Comfort Food for Thought!








Propaganda, Revelations, & Prosperity: The End of Neoliberalism with Scott Ferguson

Here in the Macro ‘n Cheese clubhouse, whenever we think we fully comprehend neoliberalism, a guest comes along with a whole new range of insights. Scott Ferguson is just that kind of guest. His main area of interest is culture and he makes some surprising observations about our ingrained misunderstanding of money and how it relates to politics, art, and our very experience of modern life. Neoliberalism structures our innermost thoughts, feelings, and desires. Ferguson traces the roots of...


Reclaiming Europe: A Story of Monetary Sovereignty with Thomas Fazi

Steve is joined by Thomas Fazi, co-author of Reclaiming the State: A Progressive Vision of Sovereignty for a Post-Neoliberal World. Fazi believes there’s an undeniable connection between the historic defeat of the left over the past thirty years and the dissolving of national sovereign power as we’ve transferred the tools of economic policy to supranational organizations which are outside the control of citizens. The first part of the 20th century saw the gradual integration of the...


The Progressive Gambit and Labour in the Balance with Robert Hockett

We’re excited to welcome back the metabolically optimistic Robert Hockett, advisor to Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. Bob talks with Steve about a wide range of subjects that will thrill political junkies and educate those interested in exploring the depths of Modern Monetary Theory. They engage in the popular sport of punditry, looking at the recent Democratic Presidential Debates and surmising the calculations behind our favorite...


Climate Refugees and the Economic Solution to Xenophobia With Fadhel Kaboub

The evening news has stories of children in cages on the US-Mexican border. Again. Fadhel Kaboub, President of the Global Institute of Sustainable Prosperity, asks us to imagine the conditions that would make someone desperate enough to send their kids off to seek safety in a foreign land. The root causes of the refugee crisis are the same all over the world. Decades of neoliberal policies, climate chaos, the exigencies of empire, and unsustainable trade deficits have destabilized the...


The History of MMT with Mathew Forstater

There was a time when Mathew Forstater & Warren Mosler would conduct regular counts of MMT believers. There were 11 or 12, and they knew them all well. In this interview, Forstater takes us back to the late 1990s, when Modern Monetary Theory first took root in academia. Today he is Research Director of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity, but his story begins with his first post-doctorate teaching job. He secured a summer internship for an undergrad named Pavlina Tcherneva....


Our Money: From the Pulpit to the Street with Rev. Delman Coates

“We’ve been given the wrong answers to the right questions,” says Steve’s guest Reverend Delman Coates, founder of the new organization, Our Money. “As a faith leader, it’s time to reclaim a theology of economics.” Rev Coates recounts that being a pastor, he sees too many people who follow all the rules yet find themselves dislocated and struggling. Understanding that money can be distorted and manipulated, and its relationship to pain and poverty in the world today, he set out to learn...


The Compelling Case for Rent Control with Nathan Tankus

Rent control, redux. Back in 2017, Steve interviewed Nathan Tankus, of the Modern Money Network, shortly after the 1st MMT conference where Nathan spoke of the heterodox approach to planning housing affordability. With renters now the majority in major US cities, and homelessness on the rise throughout, we are re-releasing this as a podcast to introduce it to a whole new audience. The US is plagued with problems of housing insecurity, gentrification, and rents that are too damn high....


The Job Guarantee is Core MMT with Ellis Winningham

Back by popular demand! Ellis Winningham, MMT guru and educator with acerbic wit and acute intellect, joins Steve to dissect the federal job guarantee. Together they set the record straight on the myths and realities of the UBI then go on to explain how and why the federal job guarantee is more than mere policy. It is both a price anchor and economic stabilizer, making it an intrinsic component at the core of Modern Monetary Theory. Confused about NAIRU versus NAIBER? Don’t know the...


Leveling the Playing Field. Reparations & Baby Bonds with Darrick Hamilton

The reality and repercussions of racial oppression are mostly absent from political discourse in the US. Steve and his guest Darrick Hamilton address it head-on in this thoughtful and detailed 2018 discussion of the range of solutions. Hamilton, professor of policy, economics and sociology at OSU, explains why reparations cannot be simply about handing out cash. The first requirement is a detailed acknowledgment of the harm done, which must be specific to the victimized group. When...


Bond Markets in a Modern Money Economy with Brian Romanchuk

Steve’s guest is Brian Romanchuk, founder of the blog, He is known for, among other things, his detailed technical rebuttals to critics of Modern Monetary Theory. Brian became interested in MMT because, as a data analyst in the bond market, it was the first macroeconomic theory that made sense. It actually matched what he saw, on a daily basis, in the real world. After a look at the history of post-Keynesian thought, Steve asks him to delve into the nuts and bolts of...


MMT Theory of Exchange Rate with Ivan Invernizzi

Steve’s guest, Ivan Invernizzi, co-founder of Rete MMT in Italy, explains that currency has an “exchange rate” within a nation’s borders. In fact it has several, because there are different levels of discrimination in access to currency. With geographical and class differences, the balance of power shifts because of the way the state organizes banking, and who the state supplies with currency. The corporations and individuals who receive payments directly from the government are in a...


Breaking The Chains of Oppression with Prof. Sandy Darity

Professor William A. Darity, Jr. also known as 'Sandy' is an American economist and researcher. He is currently the Samuel DuBois Cook Professor of Public Policy, African and African American Studies, and Economics and the director of the Samuel DuBois Cook Center on Social Equity at Duke University. Darity maintains that people are out of work in the US not because of personal defects but because the economy doesn’t generate enough jobs. He tells Steve why we need a federal job guarantee,...


Public Money & The Right to a Job with Raul Carrillo

Steve Grumbine’s guest is Raul Carrillo of the New Economy Project and Modern Money Network. As an anti-poverty & economic justice attorney he has a unique perspective on the monetary system. Raul talks about his seminal article, “The Dangerous Myth of Taxpayer Money,” and the legal history of taxation, citing the Supreme Court ruling that the gov’t has power to issue money backed only by the full faith & credit of the US gov’t - not backed by gold, taxes, or bonds. He reveals some...


Debunking Economic Illiteracy in the Progressive Movement with L. Randall Wray

Steve's guest is L. Randall Wray, a professor of Economics at Bard College and Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute. In this 2017 interview, Wray looks at the Global Financial Crisis from both sides now. The celebrated economist tells Steve how the rise of shadow banking led to banking deregulation, opening the door for massive fraud, leading to the global financial crisis. He then explains in detail how globalism affected average Americans, suppressing their wages for 40 years and...


An Overripe Economy with Alan Nasser

Alan Nasser joins Steve to discuss his new book Overripe Economy: American Capitalism and the Crisis of Democracy. Alan is Professor Emeritus of Political Economy & Philosophy at The Evergreen State College. His prediction of a new economic crisis is substantiated by a thorough exploration of the history of capital development as it passed from its most productive stage, the “Golden Age” from 1949 to 1973, into this new financialized economy, where massive profits are no longer invested in...


Game Theory with Warren Mosler

Steve’s guest is Warren Mosler, the originator of Modern Monetary Theory and author of The 7 Deadly Innocent Frauds and Soft Currency Economics II. Mosler contends that the labor market is an unfair game. Real wages gravitate towards subsistence level and remain there, even when unemployment comes down. It’s a systemic problem that can only be addressed through government intervention. An immediate and universal job guarantee will level the playing field & support wages from the bottom...


The State of MMT Activism Around the World with Christian Reilly

UK economic activist, musical comedian and co-host of the MMT Podcast Christian Reilly joins Steve to talk about their joint mission to spread MMT to the international activist community. Reilly explains the motivation that led him to create the seven point MMT Manifesto. They agree that the debate about including the Job Guarantee as an intrinsic component of MMT has been settled; it's not a political plank, it's an economic necessity. In a wide ranging discussion, they look at ways to use...


Across the Pond MMT in the UK with Patricia Pino

Steve’s guest, straight from the UK, is Patricia Pino, a founder of the Gower Institute for Modern Money Studies and host of the MMT Podcast. The topic of the day is Brexit, and Patricia explains why it can be as confusing to citizens of the UK as it is to those of us on the outside. Understanding how the eurozone furthers the neo-liberal agenda goes a long way toward untangling the political posturing and mainstream media coverage. With MMT, the UK can avoid Brexit's pitfalls and control...


The World of MMT with Professors Stephanie Kelton & Bill Mitchell

Two of the key developers of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) talk about its past, present and future state. Stephanie Kelton defines the difference between deficit hawks & doves (a la Krugman) as the choice between austerity now or austerity later. Bill Mitchell explains how MMT applies to both large closed economies like the US and small open economies like Australia as well as countries that don’t issue their own currencies. Despite different histories & institutional structures,...


12 Years with Dr. Steven Hail

Dr. Steven Hail teaches economics at the University of Adelaide, Australia. He and host, Steve Grumbine, unpack the IPCC report on the global climate threat and discuss ways to avert the coming crisis. Policy & technology wonks are in for a treat as Dr. Hail talks of the possibility of pulling carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and averting solar radiation. Hail insists on the need for public investment in renewables. Not only do we need green electricity, we need to actually use it. He...