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Macroeconomics has never been so ... delish! Macro and Cheese explores the progressive movement through the lens of Modern Monetary Theory, with hot and irreverent political takes, spotlights in activism, and the razor sharp musings of Real Progressives Founder and host Steve Grumbine. The cheese will flow as experts come in for a full, four course deep dive into the hot queso. Comfort Food for Thought!

Macroeconomics has never been so ... delish! Macro and Cheese explores the progressive movement through the lens of Modern Monetary Theory, with hot and irreverent political takes, spotlights in activism, and the razor sharp musings of Real Progressives Founder and host Steve Grumbine. The cheese will flow as experts come in for a full, four course deep dive into the hot queso. Comfort Food for Thought!
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Macroeconomics has never been so ... delish! Macro and Cheese explores the progressive movement through the lens of Modern Monetary Theory, with hot and irreverent political takes, spotlights in activism, and the razor sharp musings of Real Progressives Founder and host Steve Grumbine. The cheese will flow as experts come in for a full, four course deep dive into the hot queso. Comfort Food for Thought!








Organizing, Democracy, and Modern Monetary Theory with Mitch Green

Mitch Green joins host Steve Grumbine to talk about his work with Democratic Socialists of America in Portland, OR, and the role Modern Monetary Theory can play in DSA. As an eco-socialist, Mitch’s focus is on the climate crisis, and as an economist, he uses MMT to answer the ubiquitous question concerning solutions: “how will you pay for it?” Even when people are not open to accepting MMT, he finds it effective to simply ask them the price of continuing to live like this. The standard...


The Role of Taxation in MMT with L. Randall Wray

In 1946, Beardsley Ruml, chairman of the NY Federal Reserve, published an article entitled “Taxes for Revenue are Obsolete.” According to Randall Wray this was consistent with the thinking of the time. In the 1930s and 40s, politicians and economists understood that taxes did not finance the federal budget. In fact, during World War II the government ran a deficit that was 25% of the GDP and a national debt equal to 100% of GDP. This 2017 interview begins with Wray giving credit to Warren...


A Green New Tomorrow: A Survival Guide with Rohan Grey

When we talk about debt, it’s not just what someone owes, it’s also that someone has something owed to them. That’s the absurdity of the World Debt Clock. If the entire planet is in debt, who will we pay? Jupiter? In the second half of our interview with Rohan Grey, he begins with the fact that all money is debt, but the cash in our pockets is not recorded as part of the national debt, which is concerned with debt instruments. He compares a $100 bill and a Treasury note to a checking...


The Legal Nature of Money and the History of the Federal Reserve with Rohan Grey

Surely Rohan Grey is one of the smartest guys in the world. It’s not just that he possesses an impressive amount of knowledge. He has a unique way of using analogies and metaphors to give shape to an idea. He illustrates his points with references to popular films, folklore and lyrical poets. With his experience in the realms of music, early childhood education, political economy, and jurisprudence, he brings Modern Monetary Theory to life in unexpected ways. Throughout this two-part...


Sustainability in a Modern Money Economy with Steven Hail & Phil Lawn

With climate catastrophes in the news on a regular basis, we thought this 2017 interview was worth revisiting. Drs Philip Lawn and Steven Hail are Australian modern monetary theorists who focus much of their work on the economics of resolving the climate crisis. As an ecological economist, Lawn believes that the economy cannot grow forever because growth requires continual use of resources and constantly generates waste. He claims that a non-growing economy can still improve and likens it...


Politics, Public Banking, and the Green New Deal with Andrés Bernal

We’re fortunate to have a close friend and advisor of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez as our guest for this episode. Andrés Bernal’s optimistic and expansive point of view is contagious and inspiring. Explaining the source of his optimism in this terrifying time, Andrés says he is influenced by historical struggles for justice: the Black struggle, from abolition to the civil rights movement and beyond, the struggle of indigenous communities, and the liberation movements of colonized nations. In...


MMT Basics with Eric Tymoigne

Have you seen Eric Tymoigne’s recent tweet destroying the top myths about Modern Monetary Theory? If not, listen to this episode and hear the myths evaporate. Tymoigne begins by giving an elegant explanation of MMT as a theoretical framework explaining how governments issuing their own currency, or monetarily sovereign, operate in the economy. Understand that and you understand the importance of government policies in promoting full employment and price stability. And now, the myths: #1...


Framing the Message For Economic Justice with John Harvey

Our guest this week is John Harvey, the alter-ego of everybody’s favorite Cowboy Economist. While this cowboy would be at home in any MAGA rally, we find that behind his homespun wisdom is a great deal of planning and analysis. John talks to Steve about his approach to framing macroeconomics in such a way as to break through our preconceived notions. In response to recent attacks on Modern Monetary Theory as a radical plan, John’s aim is to show that there’s nothing radical about it. It’s...


The Emergence of FinTech and the War on Cash with Brett Scott

It turns out that cryptocurrency is both more complex and more simple-minded than one would have thought. Or are we missing something profound? Is bitcoin just another speculative asset or will it soon be replacing money as we know it? Steve’s guest Brett Scott dispels the myths about bitcoin and gives us a brief history lesson on the development and uses of fintech (which simply means financial technology), blockchain, and cryptocurrencies, including bitcoin. Some of the misconceptions...


Overcoming the Orthodoxy with Scott Fullwiler

Trump keeps telling us that unemployment is at an all-time low. Even if that were true, it wouldn’t stay that way. As our guest Scott Fullwiler explains, the private sector isn’t about creating jobs; it’s about profitability. So even if there were enough jobs for everybody who wants one, it would be a coincidence. And how can we design an economic policy around a coincidence? In this special interview with host Steve Grumbine, Fullwiler says that we have a choice whether to have a buffer...


Wage Stagnation, Inflation and the New Normal with Mark Blyth

It’s not such a stretch to have Mark Blyth as a guest on our podcast. Although we normally feature proponents of Modern Monetary Theory, our interests are, above all, in the health of the planet and the social, physical, and economic health of our fellow citizens. In this episode, host Steve Grumbine and Professor Blyth find that they share two concerns of utmost import: austerity, as both an economic as well as an ideological system, and the climate crisis. Blyth is known for his pop...


Genuine Hope: Completing the Roosevelt Revolution with Pavlina Tcherneva

Who better to explain the Federal Job Guarantee than Pavlina Tcherneva, who wrote her first paper on the subject in 1996, when it was called the Employer of Last Resort? This was at the height of the Clinton “Goldilocks economy,” which boasted of full employment. Needless to say, the ELR did not capture the popular imagination. Now, almost a quarter of a century later, the conversation has shifted. The FJG is getting noticed. With the campaign season heating up, we are re-releasing this...


Propaganda, Revelations, & Prosperity: The End of Neoliberalism with Scott Ferguson

Here in the Macro ‘n Cheese clubhouse, whenever we think we fully comprehend neoliberalism, a guest comes along with a whole new range of insights. Scott Ferguson is just that kind of guest. His main area of interest is culture and he makes some surprising observations about our ingrained misunderstanding of money and how it relates to politics, art, and our very experience of modern life. Neoliberalism structures our innermost thoughts, feelings, and desires. Ferguson traces the roots of...


Reclaiming Europe: A Story of Monetary Sovereignty with Thomas Fazi

Steve is joined by Thomas Fazi, co-author of Reclaiming the State: A Progressive Vision of Sovereignty for a Post-Neoliberal World. Fazi believes there’s an undeniable connection between the historic defeat of the left over the past thirty years and the dissolving of national sovereign power as we’ve transferred the tools of economic policy to supranational organizations which are outside the control of citizens. The first part of the 20th century saw the gradual integration of the...


The Progressive Gambit and Labour in the Balance with Robert Hockett

We’re excited to welcome back the metabolically optimistic Robert Hockett, advisor to Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. Bob talks with Steve about a wide range of subjects that will thrill political junkies and educate those interested in exploring the depths of Modern Monetary Theory. They engage in the popular sport of punditry, looking at the recent Democratic Presidential Debates and surmising the calculations behind our favorite...


Climate Refugees and the Economic Solution to Xenophobia With Fadhel Kaboub

The evening news has stories of children in cages on the US-Mexican border. Again. Fadhel Kaboub, President of the Global Institute of Sustainable Prosperity, asks us to imagine the conditions that would make someone desperate enough to send their kids off to seek safety in a foreign land. The root causes of the refugee crisis are the same all over the world. Decades of neoliberal policies, climate chaos, the exigencies of empire, and unsustainable trade deficits have destabilized the...


The History of MMT with Mathew Forstater

There was a time when Mathew Forstater & Warren Mosler would conduct regular counts of MMT believers. There were 11 or 12, and they knew them all well. In this interview, Forstater takes us back to the late 1990s, when Modern Monetary Theory first took root in academia. Today he is Research Director of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity, but his story begins with his first post-doctorate teaching job. He secured a summer internship for an undergrad named Pavlina Tcherneva....


Our Money: From the Pulpit to the Street with Rev. Delman Coates

“We’ve been given the wrong answers to the right questions,” says Steve’s guest Reverend Delman Coates, founder of the new organization, Our Money. “As a faith leader, it’s time to reclaim a theology of economics.” Rev Coates recounts that being a pastor, he sees too many people who follow all the rules yet find themselves dislocated and struggling. Understanding that money can be distorted and manipulated, and its relationship to pain and poverty in the world today, he set out to learn...


The Compelling Case for Rent Control with Nathan Tankus

Rent control, redux. Back in 2017, Steve interviewed Nathan Tankus, of the Modern Money Network, shortly after the 1st MMT conference where Nathan spoke of the heterodox approach to planning housing affordability. With renters now the majority in major US cities, and homelessness on the rise throughout, we are re-releasing this as a podcast to introduce it to a whole new audience. The US is plagued with problems of housing insecurity, gentrification, and rents that are too damn high....


The Job Guarantee is Core MMT with Ellis Winningham

Back by popular demand! Ellis Winningham, MMT guru and educator with acerbic wit and acute intellect, joins Steve to dissect the federal job guarantee. Together they set the record straight on the myths and realities of the UBI then go on to explain how and why the federal job guarantee is more than mere policy. It is both a price anchor and economic stabilizer, making it an intrinsic component at the core of Modern Monetary Theory. Confused about NAIRU versus NAIBER? Don’t know the...