Chinese Whispers

Michael Gove and Madeline Grant launch Quite right!, The Spectator’s new podcast promising sanity and common sense in an increasingly unhinged world. This week, they talk about Labour’s deputy drama, discuss whether Britain is sliding into a revolutionary mood a la France and investigate the claim in a new book that Margaret Thatcher was autistic. To hear the full episode, search Quite right! wherever you get your podcasts, or go to www.spectator.co.uk/quiteright Quite right! is also on our YouTube channel SpectatorTV. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As Chinese Whispers comes to an end, here is a compilation of some of the best discussions Cindy Yu has had across the podcast to understand modern China and President Xi. On this episode you can hear from: journalist Bill Hayton on what it means to be Chinese (1:10); writer and actor Mark Kitto and author Alex Ash on being foreign in China (13:07; professor of international history Elizabeth Ingleson on whether China’s economic boom was made in America (23:08); professor of Chinese studies and former diplomat Kerry Brown and professor of history Steve Tsang on how the cultural revolution shaped China’s leaders today (47:05); journalist Bill Bishop and professor of political science Victor Shih on how Xi took complete control at the 20th party congress in 2022 (58:13); journalist and advisor Noah Barkin on the relationship between Europe and China (1:10:04); and, professor of China studies William Kirby and former diplomat Charles Parton on why China won’t invade Taiwan (1:19:56). To stay abreast of Cindy’s latest work, subscribe to her free Substack at chinesewhispers.substack.com Produced by Cindy You and Patrick Gibbons.

** Chinese Whispers is coming to an end. Later this year, Cindy Yu will be joining The Times and The Sunday Times to write a regular column on China. To stay abreast of her latest work, subscribe to her free Substack at chinesewhispers.substack.com ** The term ‘old friend of the Chinese people’ might seem a colloquial, almost sentimental, phrase to appear in official diplomatic language, but in the Chinese context, those words have a very specific meaning. Most often, they refer to high profile foreigners whose actions have helped the Chinese Communist Party in one way or another. The most famous of these is Henry Kissinger, who led the way for American rapprochement with China. That the CCP gives various foreigners this honour is revealing of China’s priorities over the decades, but also of its attempts to co-opt foreign forces to its cause. Think back to the United Front strategy, which we looked at on the podcast earlier in the year. To discuss this honorific, I’m joined Professor Anne-Marie Brady, a China expert at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand, who was among the first to look at China’s old friends as a serious political concept some 20 years ago, and Ryan Ho Kilpatrick, a journalist based in Hong Kong.

** Chinese Whispers is coming to an end. Later this year, Cindy Yu will be joining The Times and The Sunday Times to write a regular column on China. To stay abreast with her latest work, subscribe to her free Substack at chinesewhispers.substack.com ** It’s easy to forget that, as recently as the start of this century, the US was China’s biggest ally. Washington saw Beijing as a necessary bulwark against Moscow, and consistently supported China’s entry into the world economy ever since rapprochement in the 1970s, including its accession to the World Trade Organisation. These days, the relationship couldn’t be more different. Why have relations cooled quite so fast? When was the turning point? And can we now say that rapprochement was a strategic mistake from the US? Bob Davis is a former senior editor at the Wall Street Journal, who was posted to China between 2011 and 2014. In recent years, he has been conducting a long running series of interviews - with dozens of high level officials over successive American administrations - for the online magazine, The Wire China. He has interviewed defense secretaries, ambassadors, national security advisors, treasury secretaries and more. Now, these interviews have been collated into a new e-book released by The Wire China: Broken Engagement. Through these interviews, we can see the changing direction of US-China relations through the eyes and words of those at the very heart of America’s decisions. Bob joins this episode to tell us all about it.

Walking around Taipei a couple of years ago, I spotted a familiar sight – a bronze statue of a moustachioed man, cane in his right hand, left leg striding forward. The man is Sun Yat-sen, considered modern China’s founding father. I recognised the statue because a larger version of it stands in the city centre of Nanjing, the mainland Chinese city that I was born and raised in. That one figure can be celebrated across the strait, both in Communist PRC and Taiwanese ROC, is the curious legacy left behind by Sun. March 12th this year is the centenary of Sun’s death, so what better opportunity to look at his legacy, and who better to discuss Sun than the historian Rana Mitter, who needs no introduction with Chinese Whispers listeners. Further listening: Japan’s role in the making of modern China What is it to be ‘Chinese’?

Just before the end of 2024, Chinese state media Xinhua slipped out an announcement – the long discussed mega-dam in Medog County, Tibet, has been greenlit. When built, it will generate three times more energy than China’s Three Gorges dam, currently the largest in the world. The Xinhua write-up gave few other details, but the news has caused reverberations across Asia as the river on which the dam would be built, the Yarlung Tsangpo, flows into both India and Bangladesh. The existence of the dam could, as we will hear in this episode, have extensive impact on these downriver countries. To break down the complicated water politics of the region, I’m joined today by Chinese Whispers regular, the journalist Isabel Hilton, who founded the climate NGO Dialogue Earth (formerly known as China Dialogue); and Neeraj Singh Manhas, an expert on transboundary rivers and Asian water politics, currently at South Korea’s Parley Policy Initiative.

Beginning in the first Trump presidency and expanded under Joe Biden, the US has taken a strategy of technologically containing China through restricting its access to cutting edge semiconductors. As Chinese Whispers has looked at before, these chips form the backbone of rapid advances in AI, telecoms, smartphones, weaponry and more. Washington’s aim was clear: to widen the technological gap between the two powers But has this strategy worked? Lately this has become a hot topic of debate as Chinese tech companies such as Huawei and DeepSeek have nevertheless made technical strides. Some even argue that the export controls have spurred on Chinese innovation and self-reliance. In this episode of Chinese Whispers, two very informed and smart guests debate this issue. Ryan Fedasiuk is U.S. Director of The Future Society, an independent nonprofit organization focused on AI governance, and former Advisor for U.S.-China Bilateral Affairs at the US State Department. Steve Hsu is Professor of Theoretical Physics at Michigan State University and a start-up founder. He also hosts the podcast, Manifold. Produced by Cindy Yu and Joe Bedell-Brill.

** Chinese Whispers is nominated in the Political Podcast Awards 2025. Vote for it to win the People's Choice category here ** When Chinese spy scandals break, like the latest involving Prince Andrew and his Chinese business associate, one organisation often comes up – the United Front. Mao Zedong had dubbed it one of the Chinese Communist Party’s three ‘magic weapons’. So what is this mysterious ‘United Front’ and how important is it to advancing the CCP’s agenda? Joining the podcast is Charlie Parton, a former British diplomat in Beijing and a special advisor on China to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. He is now chief advisor to the Council on Geostrategy’s China Observatory.

** Chinese Whispers is nominated in the Political Podcast Awards 2025. Vote for it to win the People's Choice category here ** Among the casualties of Donald Trump’s trade war with China in his first presidency was the telecoms giant Huawei. Founded by former military engineer Ren Zhengfei, the company is a world-leading manufacturer of everything from telecoms equipment to smartphones. But it fell foul of the Trump administration as it tried to become integral to the world’s rollout of 5G, leading to a backlash in the West and even the house arrest of Ren’s daughter. At the centre of the row is a suspicion that Huawei is essentially a state-owned company, working at the behest of the Chinese Communist Party. So as Trump prepares to go back to the White House, this episode tries to get to the bottom of the telecoms giant. Is it an arm of the Chinese state? How has it found such world dominating success? Can it survive a second Trump presidency? Cindy Yu speaks to Eva Dou, technology reporter for the Washington Post. Her new book is the House of Huawei: Inside the Secret World of China’s Most Powerful Company.

Why do so many Chinese people choose such curious English names? You must have come across this phenomenon – whether they are names from a past century, or surnames, nouns or even adjectives used as first names, or words that aren’t real at all. I have a particular interest in this because my English name – Cindy – isn’t exactly in vogue these days. You might think this is a bit of a trivial question, but I think the question of English names goes deeper than just some odd words. I think these names reveal something about the China that gave rise to them. So I was pleased to come across another China watcher recently who is also obsessed by the question. Peter Hessler is an award winning journalist whose 2001 book River Town was highly influential for its depiction of life in a changing China. I spoke to him recently upon the publication of his latest book, Other Rivers. Tune in to hear where I also reveal the origins of my English name.

More than a year after Xi Jinping purged two senior generals in the People’s Liberation Army Rocket Force unit, China’s investigation into its military seems to be ongoing, with more scalps taken. In recent weeks, Miao Hua, another senior general who had been a member of the Central Military Commission, has been suspended; while reports abound that the country’s current defence minister, Dong Jun, is under investigation too. If suspended, Dong would be the third consecutive defence minister that Xi has removed. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, to lose one defence minister may be regarded a misfortune; to lose three looks like carelessness. So what is happening at the top of the PLA? Is all of this movement a sign of Xi failing to get on top of corruption within the military or, in fact, a sign that he is gearing up for serious military action, perhaps over Taiwan? Just how effective have the military reforms that Xi instigated in 2015 been? Joining the podcast today are Oriana Skylar Mastro, an expert on the Chinese military at Stanford University and author of Upstart: How China Became a Great Power, and Demetri Sevastopulo, US-China correspondent for the Financial Times.

The Darien Gap is a 60 mile stretch of jungle that hundreds of thousands of migrants from all over South America trek through in order to reach the US-Mexico border. From there, they enter America in search of better lives. These are usually migrants from Venezuela, or Colombia or Panama. But in recent years, a new group of people have appeared at the border, having paid people smugglers and hacked through the jungle. They often bring young children, clutch on to smartphones with which they check their routes, and watch social media videos that set out, step by step, the journey they are embarking on. These are the Chinese, which in the last two years have been the fastest growing group of migrants being encountered at America’s southern border – over 37,000 last year, up from under 4,000 the year before. This year, there have already been over 21,000. What brings them, and how unusual is this method of emigration when it comes to people from China? On this podcast are Professor Meredith Oyen, an expert on US-China migration, and Amy Hawkins, senior China correspondent at the Guardian, who has come across a similar phenomenon on Europe’s borders.

** This episode of Chinese Whispers was recorded in front of a live audience as a part of the Battle of Ideas Festival 2024. ** Is China in decline? I was born in China in the 90s, and growing up it felt like the future was always going to be brighter. My parents were wealthier, more educated, better travelled than their parents, and it seemed assured that my generation would only have even better life chances. But in the 2020s, China’s economic growth has slowed down. Some of the once-bright spots in its economy, like real estate, are in slow motion meltdown. In the last couple of years foreign direct investment into the country has been falling at a record pace. The youth unemployment rate from this summer shows that just under a fifth of people under 24 are jobless. So how much of this is a considerable decline in the progress that China has made in the last miraculous half century, or is it just perhaps 'western bias' that’s blinding us to what is still a very positive picture? On this live podcast, I discuss this question with a lively and experienced panel of China-watchers: Tom Miller, a senior analyst at Gavekal Research and author of two books on China; Isabel Hilton, a veteran international reporter and founder of the website China Dialogue; and Austin Williams, an architect by training who is also the author of numerous books on China, and teaches at the Xi'An Jiaotong-Liverpool University.

** On October 19, Cindy Yu and a panel of special guests will be recording a live Chinese Whispers at London's Battle of Ideas festival, talking the latest on China’s economic slowdown and asking – what are the social and political implications? Is China in decline? Chinese Whispers listeners can get a 20 per cent discount on the ticket price with the code WHISPERS24. Click here to find out more and get your ticket. ** The release of ChatGPT in late 2022 brought home the sheer potential of artificial intelligence and the speed with which developments are being made. It made AI the hot topic from business to politics and, yes, journalism. This was true in China too, despite the fact that ChatGPT has never been allowed to be used within Chinese borders. Instead, China has a rich landscape of homegrown AI products, where progress is being led by tech giants like search engine Baidu and TikTok’s owner, ByteDance. So already we are seeing a bifurcation in the AI worlds of China and the West – just like with social media and e-commerce. This episode will peek over the Great Firewall to update listeners on China’s progress on AI. The country is fast becoming an AI superpower even as it limits the freedoms its generative models can have and keeps out some of the world’s leading companies. Could this be the next arms race? I’m joined by the researcher Matt Sheehan, fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a long time watcher of China’s tech scene.

Trump is tough on China, but what really motivates his hawkishness? Does he care at all about China's human rights abuses? Or is he fundamentally a foreign policy disentangler, hoping to rein back America's overseas commitments? How much does the China policy of a second Trump presidency depend on which advisors the president surrounds himself with? On this episode of Chinese Whispers, The Spectator's China podcast, assistant editor Cindy Yu talks to deputy editor Freddy Gray and Jordan McGillis, economics editor at the Manhattan Institute's City Journal. Produced by Cindy Yu and Patrick Gibbons.

Whenever I go back to China, I try to eat as much as I can – delicious Chinese food that I can’t have outside of the country, whether childhood favourites or the latest food trends. But I’m often struck by my relatives and friends who turn their noses up at many of these delicious dishes – they commonly say ‘不敢吃’ – ‘I’m scared to eat it’. The Chinese middle class can now be very discerning about the food that they eat, and who can blame them? In the last twenty years, there seems to have been a steady stream of food safety and hygiene scandals – most infamously melamine-laced milk powder in 2008, which poisoned tens of thousands of babies. Since then, we’ve heard about pesticides being put into steamed buns to improve their texture, used cooking oil being retrieved from gutters to be reused, and lamb meat that might contain rat or fox. The latest scandal, breaking over the last couple of months, is that of fuel tankers being used to carry cooking oil without the tankers being cleaned in between. So what gives? Are these scandals a particularly Chinese phenomenon? Why hasn’t government regulation or punishment worked? And how does this impact political credibility in the eyes of the middle class? I’m joined by two brilliant guests to discuss all of these questions and more. Dali Yang is a political scientist and sinologist at the University of Chicago, whose research has focused on Chinese regulations when it comes to food and medicine. His latest book is Wuhan: How the Covid-19 Outbreak in China Spiralled Out of Control. James Palmer is deputy editor at Foreign Policy and author of numerous books on China. He worked for years as a journalist inside China. For further listening, check out the Chinese Whispers episode on the gig economy – another huge labour rights issue in the country today: Algorithms and lockdowns: how China’s gig economy works.

‘Swifties’, as Taylor Swift’s fans are known across the world, are extremely dedicated to the cause, and often estimated to drive up local economies wherever they flock, and Chinese fans are no different. Swift didn’t perform in China on the latest global tour, but that didn’t stop more wealthy fans flying to Singapore to see her; or the less wealthy, going to cinemas in China to watch the Taylor Swift Eras Tour documentary – which has broken box office records in China. All this got me thinking – how popular is American, and western, pop music in China in general? Is it considered mainstream, or something a bit more indie compared to Chinese pop? Is the language barrier a problem, or censorship? On this episode I'm joined by two people very much in the know. Alex Taggart is an artist manager who has previously worked as a DJ and a Nightlife columnist in China. Jocelle Koh also works in the music industry and founded the media platform Asian Pop Weekly. They tell me about Chinese opera-style covers of Adele and explain how an American missile system brought down K-Pop in China... We also mention a range of our favourite viral videos featuring western pop in China. Links here: Vlogger Lorelei in Singapore Countryside Nicki Minaj 'Low low low your boat' Last Emperor Puyi dancing to Harry Styles Chinese opera Adele

The EU and US are turning up the pressure on Chinese made electric cars, as I discussed with my guest Finbarr Bermingham on the last episode. On this episode, I want to take a closer look at how China has come to dominate the global electric car market. Chinese EVs make up 60 per cent of worldwide sales, and a third of global exports. Its leading brand, BYD, now regularly gives Tesla a run for its money in terms of number of cars sold. How much of a role do subsidies play, versus other factors like its control of rare earths or lower labour costs? Is there really an overcapacity issue that suggests a flooding of Chinese cars globally? On this episode, I'm joined by Zeyi Yang, China tech reporter at MIT Technology Review, who is an expert on the genealogy of China’s EV industry.

The EU and China are in the foothills of a trade war. After a seven month investigation, the European Commission has announced tariffs of up to 38 per cent on electric cars from China, citing that they’ve found ‘subsidies in every part of the supply chain’. In retaliation, China has ramped up its own investigations into imports from the EU. This, of course, comes after the US has announced its own 100 per cent tariff on Chinese electric cars. Listeners will know that Chinese electric cars are becoming ever more competitive. In just three years, the value of the EU’s imports of Chinese EVs have surged tenfold – from $1.6 billion in 2020 to $11.5 billion last year. The Commission has warned that Chinese electric cars could make up 15 per cent of the EU market by next year. What are the ramifications of these new tariffs? Is there anything that will reverse this new tide of protectionism? On this episode, I’m talking to Finbarr Bermingham, Europe correspondent at the South China Morning Post, who patches in from Brussels.

In less than a month’s time, Britain may well have a new prime minister – and a different ruling party. Under 14 years of the Conservative party, the UK’s approach to China has swung from the sycophancy of the golden era to fear and loathing under Liz Truss, stabilising in the last couple of years to a compete but engage approach, all while public opinion on China has hardened following the Hong Kong protests and the pandemic. What will a new government bring? Will the managerialism of Keir Starmer change UK-China relations much from the managerialism of Rishi Sunak? This is not a hypothetical question as Labour looks set to win the election and the question, now, is how big the Conservative losses will be. I’m joined in this episode by someone who has spent years looking at this issue. Sam Hogg is a political analyst who has covered China as seen by Westminster for years, under the newsletter he founded, Beijing to Britain. He last came on the podcast to discuss Liz Truss’s views on China – a lot has changed then. Produced by Cindy Yu and Joe Bedell-Brill.