Real Job Talk

Welcome Skye Waterson, coach for people working with neurodiverse teams and partners helping them to excel in the workplace. Skye is the founder of Unconventional Organisation and the ADHD Skills Lab Podcast, and she has dedicated her career to helping neurodiverse professionals manage their challenges and bring their superpowers into focus while at work. We thank Magic Mind for their support and help with clarity, focus, and sleep. Our friends at Magic Mind are giving our listeners 20% off their products (they have both clarity and sleep). If you want to try it, get 20% off the Magic Mind bundle with our link: https://www.magicmind.com/REALJOBTALK20 There’s a money-back guarantee, so try it if you’re curious. Diagnosed as a young adult, Skye had dedicated her life to teaching about ADHD and coaching business owners and leaders how to manage and grow without the burnout. She looks at what is happening and where people are feeling stuck and she helps them build systems to move forward and avoid burnout. Results happen quickly after that. The most common challenges Skye sees in professionals with ADHD are difficulty with time management, inability to “knock things out” without help, trouble with transition times, and more. That said, there are super powers around creativity. We asked why someone would want to have a boss with ADHD if they aren’t great at time and task management. Skye said that ADHD bosses are great for navigating choppy waters because they can think creatively out of choppy waters. If you don’t want to talk about your ADHD, make sure you share your preferences of how you work best with your boss and colleagues. If you don’t know what you need, how can you help people to best work with you? To understand how to staff around someone with ADHD is to understand the bottlenecks and make sure there are people who can fix them. Often with ADHD there isn’t a lot of process, so Skye will build it in, and they need help with administrative pieces and delegating. Another key to managing up with ADHD is to ask about prioritization. If they want to change direction, ask what you can drop. Be very specific with what needs to get done to meet company goals and how changes will affect the bottom line. ADHD folks do well with data-driven questions and this-or-that choices. ChatGPT is an amazing tool to come to your boss with 3 ideas and 1 suggestion to make sure you’re doing a good job and helping them prioritize. Confirming solutions and direction can be helpful in successfully navigating each others’ strengths and weaknesses. We discuss how brilliant neurodiverse minds can be. It’s so important to focus on the super powers and what is working vs what isn’t to remember the value add to a business, a community, and the world. People with ADHD are world-changers, so getting strategies that work help support their strengths. Another key to success with ADHD is to make sure you’re supported in a way that you won’t be overwhelmed. Folks with ADHD need to set themselves up for success with supportive structures in place and tools that work for them so that they don’t get overwhelmed and burnt out. We discussed managing up when the leader “sees squirrels”. Skye said to start acknowledging the squirrel. Then, show the timeline you’re under and what would have to be dropped in order to switch direction to follow the squirrel. Sometimes folks with ADHD haven’t thought about the consequences or step of a pivot, so pointing it out and showing the resources needed is a key to success. Coming straight in with negativity will backfire, but giving it a minute and doing some research to show the gives and takes and data around “following the squirrel” will help make informed decisions. Ultimately, if a leader isn’t able to delegate or prioritize, they are going to lose the employees who could be deployed to support them. Skye supports those leaders so that they can keep their teams and their companies can flourish. We give Skye a scenario...

We welcome Leanne Elliott, an organizational psychologist, to talk about how to manage fairly in our current divided world. We thank Magic Mind for their support and help with clarity, focus, and sleep. Our friends at Magic Mind are giving our listeners 45% off their products (they have both clarity and sleep). If you want to try it, get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle with our link: https://www.magicmind.com/REALJOBTALKJAN There’s a money-back guarantee, so try it if you’re curious. Leanne grew up knowing she always wanted to be a psychologist from a young age. After a friend lost her mom she saw how a psychologist helped kids understand and process their feelings. She wanted to help as many people as possible, so she learned how to help organizations build cultures that validate feelings, process difficult situations, and move forward through productive problem-solving and discourse. Leanne is the owner of Oblong HQ, a consultancy helping companies with their cultures and leadership as well as the co-host of the most popular Hubspot podcast (and one of our favorites) Truth, Lies, and Work (https://truthliesandwork.com). We were guests on Truth, Lies, and Work, and we are thrilled to have Leanne with us today. For Leanne, a positive outcome of the recent US election is that we know the winner and we can try to anticipate what things may look like going forward. A lot of anxiety was built up around that “who will win?” question; knowing the answer gives us a place to start. She calls out the exhaustion from the last few years with the economic and political instability. She says that burnout is happening at much higher rates with a compounded stress of life, cost of living, geopolitical change, and uncertainty. Leanne is focused on helping organizations avoid this burnout with some relatively simple culture shifts. There are things you can do to create a workplace culture. It’s not complex, but it needs to be approached with consistency, dedication, and intention. Talk about politics or religion can bring more tension. People talk about it because it impacts them. We can look at bringing teams back together and building cohesion around both tasks and social, starting with the tasks and insisting on civility. Make sure each team member knows that their role is to push work forward. Understanding each person’s contribution can build trust and camaraderie, which can then build social cohesion. Revisiting vision and values whenever you look at strategy will help to make sure your company is living the words they’re saying and that people understand the 'why' behind what they are doing. Making sure your team understands the WHY behind decisions and changes so that they can get on board (or not). Knowing the why gives people autonomy in their decisions. Managers impact our employee experience, and when managers communicate effectively, it drastically improves employee experience. Around the election, she talks about Trump transcending politics because he challenges the belief that leaders should stand for good in the world. His election makes us rethink everything in this geopolitical environment. We’ve seen far-right swings all over the world, not just in the US, but for all of us the acceptance of behavior we’ve been counseling against for our whole careers is unsettling. Kat advises to focus on what we can control. Leanne adds that the psychological transition between accepting what we can control and changing what we can control in a world that feels out of control is challenging. When we’re in the ending phase where our beliefs are challenged, there are uncomfortable negative feelings that we show both emotionally and physiologically. We need to process to move forward. Talking with a therapist, journaling- actually writing things down- and processing can really remove stress. We’re seeing a trend of employees wanting to move to a different state or country. HR leaders are trying to figure out what to do. Leanne encourages tring...

Our final episode in our series on employee experience is about helping people who are leaving the company have a positive experience as they move on. Helping someone leave gracefully, providing a great last few days, and transitioning their work smoothly does just that. (If you’re the person leaving, listen to RJT Episode 55: The Art of Quitting (https://realjobtalk.com/55-the-art-of-quitting)) When someone gives notice unexpectedly, what do you do? First, talk with them and understand their why. This is an opportunity for learning- could you have prevented it? What you learn could help you in retaining the rest of your people and recruiting new ones. Come in with curiosity, remorse, and ZERO defensiveness. This is a time to learn, and you need to calmly be wishing the person well. As the person leaving, you want to be consistent in your why- you’re going to be asked why you’re leaving by your manager, HR, upper management, and peers- have your story consistent so that others aren’t caught flat-footed when learning about your reason for leaving. If the person talks about things you could have prevented (for example, they were bored or felt stunted), sincerely apologize. Promise them that you will be better for the folks left behind. This helps with the leaver’s employee experience, but also they will help you by telling others things will improve (and you need to follow up on your promises!). Once you’ve learned, talk about how THEY want to transition. Do they want a party celebrating their time on the team? Have they thought about transitioning the work? What and who do they suggest to take on different tasks? You will learn even more from that conversation and understand the inner workings of the job and team which will help with managing the group moving forward. How you communicate the change to the rest of the team is important too. Talk about how the transition will work; if you’re recruiting, ask for referrals or interest; and make sure the messaging is consistent and clear for the team to know how to work together to move forward without this person. If the person doesn’t want people to know the real reason they are leaving (for example, a health issue), put together a clear and consistent message that the person is comfortable with. For HR and leadership, make sure that your processes for leaving are clear. Where do computers, badges, and other equipment go? What happens with benefits? Paychecks? Vacation? Make it easy for the person to leave by having clear processes. For HR folks, if you learn from a leaver that the manager is nasty, look into it and see if there are things you can learn and do to improve the team’s experience moving forward. While we’re against guilt trips for people who are leaving, we’re all for telling them that you liked working with them and making a plan to keep in touch. You don’t need to lose a friend because someone has left. And as a company, a big source of hires are bounce-backs - people who leave a company and then later return. Every person who leaves (either voluntarily or involuntarily) needs to be treated with dignity and respect and clarity for company reputation (unhappy people LOVE posting Glassdoor reviews), open the door for future hires, and putting good messaging out in the community.

Exciting new idea: we are doing a series on employee experience! Today’s episode is number 3 talks about the employee experience of every day life as an employee. This is about understanding what each employee needs and wants and providing the training, tools, mentorship, and guidance to help them be successful. And for employees, it means showing up and being the best you can be. Generally, people leave companies because of lack of a supportive manager and/or a fear about the company’s future. They also leave because of career development, compensation, and logistics like commutes. The #1 important thing about being an employee is the mutual understanding of what is expected and what it’s like to be in each role (meaning the manager needs to understand what their team member’s days are like). How do you find out? Do your 1:1 meetings and learn what their day is like. What do they like or not? Understand if your people are happy. One great question to ask in a 1:1 is: what surprises have come up? Another is: what surprises have you experienced? We share an example of a person having 2 jobs at competitors at once….and we blame the managers for not knowing they have the capacity for more. But, we also tell employees to communicate their capacity, their issues (along with solutions), and their goals so that their manager understands their role. Companies, groups, and managers need to create psychologically safe places to bring up issues and when bringing them up, ICs, try to bring solutions. Oh, and managers, you don’t have all of the answers so get your team to brainstorm together to come up with the best solution. Good managers understand an employee’s desire for challenge. Performance and career management are separate, but both related to employee experience which is why managers need to talk with employees to understand what they want from the job. You need to communicate with your manager about what you like and don’t like. Performance management and Career Management are NOT the same thing. That said, you have to do a good job in your current role, even if you’re not looking to move up the career ladder. Being able to communicate that you’re happy to stay in your current role and not take on new challenges should be safe (managers listen up!), but you need to perform in your current role or ask for time off/accommodations to keep your performance strong. A key piece of employee success is communication. Putting promised deliverables in a note or email, preemptively explaining missed deliverables, and keeping all stakeholders informed of progress. Getting stuck and not asking for help can lead to performance issues. We recommend you reaching out so that you don’t remain stuck in the mud, missing deliverables, and having poor performance. You’d help others, so check your ego at the door and let them help you. That said, don’t be the person always in crisis- it’s a performance issue. Being a team member is about give and take, so do your piece in the give and take of the team to avoid getting stuck. And when someone on your team is stuck, come up with solutions and try to help, even if there’s another solution that’s adopted. Net net, communication is the key to employee experience. Keep information, solutions, and updates flowing and your experience will be a good one.

We're doing a series of podcast episodes on employee experience! Today’s episode is number 2, which talks about the importance of the onboarding process. This episode is for EVERYONE AND ANYONE who is involved with the onboarding process -- managers, leaders, candidates, and interviewers. "Onboarding" is the term used for the plan and process for welcoming someone to a company and getting them trained up for their new role. Onboarding is a, if not THE, critical piece of employee success. According to a Jobvite 2020 survey, 1 in 3 hires leaves a job in the first 90 days. In a Bamboo HR report about onboarding, they found that 70% of people decide if a job is right for them in the 1st 30 days, and 20% decide in the first week. Given these overwhelming stats, onboarding is a critical piece of employee experience, and if not done well, it can lead to attrition, high costs, and overall hits to morale. First impressions are essential, and those first days are crucial in making a first impression about what a job will be like. Onboarding can be broken down into several layers: * Paperwork and logistics. HR will usually handle your paperwork (proof of ID, where to park, work hours, etc); it is more process-oriented and mechanical. * Training. Your team and manager (the focus of this podcast) Onboarding happens over a few months. Before you start. Hopefully, HR will send some material to inform you about the company and welcome you to the team - things like corporate logo swag, gifts, and welcome packages. That said, the key piece of welcoming someone before they start is the team supporting and welcoming someone as they go through leaving their old position and transitional activities necessary to start a new role. The silence between signing and starting brings anxiety to a new hire. Managers and folks on the team can call or email and say they can’t wait to see you. Every new hire should have an itinerary for their first day, including a lunch if they’re in the office. Managers should make a 30-60-90 outline (with input from the new hire) with people to meet, systems to log into, and projects to catch up on. Having a checklist is so helpful in letting a new hire know what they need to do. Managers, another tip is to assign your new person a buddy so that they have a “ask me anything and you won’t feel dumb” person. This will help the new hire get up to speed tremendously. Once the person has started, another way to welcome them to the team is to send an introduction to the company or team. Make sure the new hire has approved the information that you are sending out. Also, have a senior leader personally welcome them to the company. A 1-minute email or a 15-minute meet and greet makes a world of difference. Even if you're not their manager, do you have a new hire that has joined your team? Reach out and set up time with them. Be a self-appointed part of the welcoming committee and share your tips and tricks that made your onboarding successful. Another tip: make sure your new hire is invited to all relevant meetings (including the social ones), documents, and projects. We remember the helpers and the people who check in with us and include us while we’re onboarding. Have you heard of "the 3 week freak out?" In week 3 on a new job, you’ve learned enough about what you need to do and feel overwhelmed, and we PROMISE that feeling will be gone by month 3. Don’t let the 3 week freak out ruin a new job experience. Make sure you check in on new hires at 3 weeks to see how they’re doing and reassure them. Our mentor, J. Mike Smith, always uses the question, “What surprised you?”, in order to get more focused insights while reflecting on projects or processes. When you’ve onboarded someone, ask what surprised them -- and then make sure you adjust your onboarding program proactively for next time. Onboarding occurs throughout the first YEAR (each annual event and each seasonal activity is their first in the new role), so checking in and...

We had an exciting new idea -- with today's episode, we kick off a series of episodes looking at the employee experience from many different angles. Today’s episode is number 1 in the series. We start by talking about the very beginning of the employee experience: the recruiting process. Future episodes will include onboarding, being an employee, career development, and leaving a company. This episode is for EVERYONE AND ANYONE who is involved with the recruiting process -- managers, leaders, candidates, and interviewers. We've talked a lot about the recruiting process from the applicants perspective many times, but we also think looking through the eyes of folks inside the company is super informative, so in this episode, we look at that perspective as well. *What is employee experience? *Employee experience is just that - the experience of working somewhere. We believe this experience starts even before you’ve interacted with a company, with your thoughts on their brand as an employer, but it starts being solidified in the recruiting process with your experience as a candidate. The candidate experience starts with the application. Recruiters/hiring managers, have you checked out your application process lately? Is it up to date? Does it ask for a "Twitter" handle? If so, time to update. We recommend you apply to your jobs at least quarterly to make sure that it’s a smooth, easy, and pain-free process. Our list of advice for people that are hiring: GET BACK TO EVERY CANDIDATE. The least you can do is loop back with candidates who show interest, and especially who have participated in your interview process. Update candidates on the status of the job. Even if it’s a message that your process is taking more time than anticipated, some update is better than no update. Update when the job is closed or if it goes on hold too. If you ask for something in the process (a test, questions, a cover letter), make sure you actually look at it. Don't waste people's time. Feedback can be hard to get, so if you can give non-subjective feedback that can help the candidate, do it. Build an experience where every conversation is different. Don't waste the time of the applicant or the interviewers. Know your candidates and make sure every conversation is a different one that adds value and adds to how you both see each other. (It’s so nice we said it twice) Have a no ghosting policy. When you disappear and never get back to a candiate, you potentially lose business based on the way you treat people. Tell people where you are in the process and let them know what’s coming. It’s great as a candidate to know what’s coming next and how far you are along the journey. And, when you bring in someone later in your overall hiring process, let them know that others are farther along. Keep questions relevant to the job. Do do otherwise is potentially illegal, and non-relevant questions easily cross into topics that could make someone feel uncomfortable. Make sure you leave time for the candidate to ask questions to you, and answer honestly. Don’t blow smoke. Don’t tell someone they’re "perfect for a role," that you "want to work with them," or that can "see them on the team" if you’re not going to give an offer. You can say you like someone, but giving false hope or, even worse, asking a candidate to clear their calendar for onboarding and then turning them down is a bad candidate experience. Respond to thank yous! A “great to meet you too” goes a LONG way. It improves your employer brand and it helps prevent the candidate feel like they sent a useless note off into the void. Be decisive. There is no bench where you keep a candidate on hold. If you like someone, hire them. If you don’t, let them go. Make sure your whole team interviewing candidates is clear all the aspects of what you're doing: their role and part in the process, job description, ideal candidate profile, required skills, etc. Everyone should be aligned on expectations -- the hiring...

A special episode: Liz and Kat are guests on the Truth, Lies, & Work Podcast, where they talked about difficult conversations at work. Check out this episode with Liz and Kat on Difficult Conversations at Work (https://link.chtbl.com/ovhKymhi), epsiode 137 of the Truth, Lies & Work podcast (https://truthliesandwork.com). Listen to the episode right here or listen to this bonus episode right here in your Real Job Talk feed. Episode notes Welcome to Truth, Lies & Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. Join hosts Leanne Elliott, chartered psychologist, and Al Elliott, business owner, as they help you simplify the science of work. In today’s episode, we’re tackling one of the most challenging aspects of workplace dynamics - having difficult conversations. We’re joined by two outstanding experts in the world of people and culture, Kathleen Troyer and Liz Bronson, co-hosts of the Real Job Talk podcast. Together, they share practical advice on how to handle conflict, polarizing topics, and tough discussions at work. Meet Our Guests: • Kathleen Troyer is the CEO and Lead Consultant at Jigsaw Solutions Inc., where she specializes in leadership development and business strategy. Known for helping leaders engage in uncomfortable but necessary conversations, Kat shares her insights on creating psychologically safe workplaces. • Liz Bronson, a Global Professional in Human Resources (GPHR), has dedicated her career to fostering inclusive and supportive company cultures. Her experience spans companies like Barclays Global Investors, VMware, and ThriveCart. Key Discussion Points: The Impact of External Events on Workplace Dynamics Kat and Liz discuss how global events like political upheavals, economic instability, and distressing news have forever altered how we interact in the workplace. How to Defuse Tension and Maintain a Positive Culture In today’s polarized world, workplace conflict is inevitable. Our guests explore how leaders can guide difficult conversations, focusing on empathy, transparency, and respect. Bringing Your Whole Self to Work Kat and Liz debate whether this is truly feasible in today's diverse workplaces and discuss the importance of creating inclusive environments where everyone feels they belong, regardless of differing opinions. Aligning Company Values with Employee Behavior Kat and Liz stress the importance of living company values, not just displaying them on a wall. When to Have the Uncomfortable Conversation Our guests provide practical advice on how to approach difficult conversations when tensions rise in the workplace.

We have a letter! A listener asks us what they should do if everything is just good. They’re restless: work is good, they make good money, have work/life balance, but they're wondering if this is it. Our listener’s name is “Restless” and we explore how they should approach this mid-career moment. First - everything is relative. The grass can be greener on someone else’s hill, but your grass may be really green to someone else. We tell Restless that they need to explore why they’re feeling this way. What is at the root of their restlessness? Is there something they want to achieve that they haven’t? In the meantime, we told Restless to seek out some new projects, find out what other teams are working on, and see if he could participate or at least listen in. Career mid-life crises are just as common as life mid-life crises. So, what do you do? Assess what’s going well and what you don’t want, and see if you can learn something new or push yourself in a new area to keep yourself moving. We stress that learning and staying on top of trends and technologies is always important and going on a learning mission will help them feel fresh and less stuck. We send Restless on a journey to understand their internal desires as well as an external exploration of what they aren’t doing. Start asking people - internally and externally - what they are working on, and see if you can join in - or at least observe to learn and expand your knowledge. By learning about what others are working on, we can be inspired and think of new things that are exciting. We also tell Restless that sometimes in life we are all in at work, and sometimes we are doing our job and focusing on other things. Restless says they have work/life balance. We tell them to really lean into that and go to the baseball game, or appreciate that family time. Restless’ life sounds pretty awesome: good pay, work/life balance, remote work, and interesting projects. We caution them to be careful when framing their restlessness so that they open a dialogue and not annoy people. It’s a pretty sweet situation and while we love the candor for us, they need to be really aware of their audience and approach the conversation from a place of curiosity vs complaining. We tell Restless to lean into gratitude as an antidote for complacency and to look at work as a part of a whole, rich life.

We’re talking from experience about red flags, especially in the job search process, where your gut fits into decision making and how to listen for those flags. Kat tells her story from 20 years ago about her first HR Leadership role where she joined a company working for a husband and wife team. The offer was lower than her comfort zone with a bonus to get her there. She then needed to clock in, which is unknown in leadership roles. When Kat got home from her first week on the job, she said to her husband, “One week down, 51 to go”, but in reality, she left after 6 months to preserve her mental health and well-being. This decision led to Kat starting her own business which has been thriving for 21 years. Liz’s story is more recent. A recruiter sent an AI-written no-personality job description, and then there was a fast interview process which led to a funky feeling. The offer came with terrible benefits - a big red flag that shows you don’t care about people. The red flags were all true, and while she tried to focus on the positive, it ended up being untenable and her gut got a lot less twisty once she left. One big flag to point out is this: would you take the job if you had a job? If the answer is no, why? If it’s because things don’t feel right, listen to that! Official advice #1: The Job Description: Is it written by AI? Boring? Trying to help draw you in? Include company values? Do you know what the company does, what the job is, is there a career page selling you on the company? Official advice #2: The recruiting process. What’s it like? Do you feel they know you at all? Is there a decision process or does it go on forever? Have you met your boss, a few colleagues? It’s a red flag if you don’t feel like they know what they want and what they’re looking for. Official advice #3: Look at Glassdoor, PunchBowl, Reddit, and other sites that talk about the experience working at the company. Look for threads in the reviews- not just the 1 from an angry employee. Look at the recent feedback on what it’s like there. The score is important, but know that companies try to manipulate their score….pay attention if there are lots of positive reviews with zero substance. Official advice #4: Is the team diverse? Look on Linkedin and see who works there. Is everyone white and under 30 in suits and ties? Do they indicate that they want diverse teams and points of view? Official advice #5: Does the benefits package indicate that they care about their people? What’s covered? How much are they contributing? We’ve never seen a great place to work with terrible benefits. Official advice #6: Do they encourage your questions? Answer directly? Belittle you for asking questions? RED FLAG. If you ever feel like your requests are being blown off, word salad or more, it’s a huge indicator of what the company is like to work at. Official advice #7: Your gut is saying no. If you’re not excited about signing the offer, it’s for a good reason. It’s hard to not listen to your brain and your bank account, but let your gut have a say in the decision. If you do go against your gut, we’ve got some clear advice for you. Don’t announce it on Linkedin right away. Don’t stop interviewing >> if your brain and your bank account win out and you try something new, it’s ok to keep interviewing if you really don’t think it’s a fit. Be artfully honest when people ask you how things are going- lead with the positive, but tell people you’re still open to new opportunities. If it’s not a big fit, look for the good people you haven’t met, the story, the learnings. There are good things that come out of good stints.

We have a letter! One of our listeners wrote to us with a question. They are stuck with what to do with their golden hancuffs. Their current employer was acquired by a larger company. The company wants them to stay, and has given them a year-long series of bonuses and severance if they stay long enough. But they'd also like to look around to see if there are other opportunities. They don’t know what to do about their bonus package in the job search: can they disclose it? Can they use it as leverage it as part of a job negotiation? It’s a great question, and while we counseled them separately, we share our advice with each of you. What ARE golden handcuffs? They’re a way that a company incentivizes you to stay with them vs leave after a major change. For example, our listener’s company was acquired and they have golden handcuffs that pay them over the next 6 months to stay with the company vs leave for another job. For our listener, they get bonuses every 3 months and then another payment if you stay through the pre-determined transition period. Because our listener is early career, we advised them to stay and get experience with acquisitions and use the bonus package to accumulate a nest egg (assuming they can tolerate it). And we also advised them to not start looking for a new job right away, and instead to take time to make a must-have list, and then start searching 3 months before their last day. Can our listener use their package to get more money? If YOU are applying for jobs, you can’t use a retention program as leverage, but once someone is interested, or if you are being recruited, you may be able to use it. You can say “I’d love to be considered, but I have this retention package and am planning on staying through the end. Can you help keep me whole?” They likely won’t pay it all out, but maybe it will get you a sign-on bonus. Deciding what’s right to do? Look at your must-have list, look at what you want to learn, and as opportunities come your way, make lists of pros and cons guided by your must-have list to balance learning, opportunity, stability, and happiness. Another interesting opportunity may come from the new company, so doing your best post-acquisition and learning about the new company, new ways to do things, and meeting a new network of people is a huge opportunity. Post-acquisition retention is an incredible learning opportunity. You have the opportunity to see how a new company does things and also see new groups and meet new people. Use the opportunity to learn and grow. If you do get approached for a new job, tell them right away that you’re planning on staying through the period of your retention bonus and let them know what it looks like to see if they can help move you earlier. Stress that you’re most interested in learning, growth, and opportunity, and you’re willing to give up money for the right opportunity. If you know you’re talking with a recruiter, write notes and make sure you’re ready for a clear and open conversation. Be confident in who you are, what you’re looking for, and what’s important to you.

Today we’re talking about all things Company-Paid. We're here to help you understand and navigate the world of expenses. Here are the Real Job Talk guidelines for using your company credit card. Guideline 1: Look at your company handbook/rulebook and familiarize yourself with the company’s policies around expenses. There may be limits on hotels, guidelines around flights, and per diems for meals and drinks. If you see friends during time in a new city, that needs to be on your dime - just like when you see friends at home. Your per diem is to cover you because you’re there for work, not for your cocktails with friends. Guideline 2: If it isn’t told to you, ASK! Can you buy yourself a mouse, monitor, or new desk? Ask the recruiter or hiring manager what will be covered by the company. Guideline 3: Convenience is key. You are traveling for WORK, so any bookings you do (hotel, office etc) need to be close to the work you are doing, not to the nearby city you’ve always wanted to visit. If you travel to a city and you want to go sightseeing and learn about it, that's totally fine, but the time you spend as a tourist is on you -- because the company doesn’t need you doing it and it's not part of your job. That said, you can extend your trip with a later flight after your personal travel (the company owes you a round trip ticket, the dates are less important), but the hotels and food during your tourism are on you. Guideline 4: Treat the company’s money like your own. Want an upgrade for extra leg room, but that’s not in company policy? That’s on your dime. Think about saving up your per diem to buy your family dinner on your way home from the airport? The company doesn’t owe your family dinner -- and they could fire you or at least lose trust in you if they find out. Bottom line: it’s not smart to abuse expenses. You could get fired. Don’t be fired for something so avoidable. Guideline 5: If it’s not for work, it’s not expensable. If you’re not sure, ASK. If you choose to work at a coffee shop instead of home one day, it’s not expensable. If you’re having lunch with friends and they say “How’s work?”, that’s not expensable. If you take your team out, it probably IS expensable. And when you can expense something, don’t bust the budget or order the most expensive thing you can. Don’t take advantage. Guideline 6: Use the systems you’re told to use. Follow Finance’s guidelines. Keep receipts. Stay on top of it so that your expenses are up to date. If you pay attention to these guidelines - and to the guidelines of your company - you won't get into trouble with expenses at work.

Welcome back to Real Job Talk, Kat Kibben! Kat (pronouns they/them) is the founder of Three Ears Media, a speaker, advocate, and leader in the HR space around inclusivity and job descriptions. We're really pleased to have Kat join us for a second time on the podcast. (Check out their first appearance, Episode 38: Write a Resume that Gets Past the Screeners with Katrina Kibben (https://realjobtalk.com/38-write-a-resume-that-gets-past-the-screeners-katrina-kibben)) Every week, Kat writes a letter with their thoughts from that week. They started writing their letters as a marketing exercise, but found the letters got more personal and they eventually evolved to being about... life. Those letters are now a collection of stories titled This Was All An Accident focusing on their year of living in a van and traveling around the United States. According to Kat, the first step of accepting yourself is learning what it feels like to be happy. Kat started writing a list of what they were doing when they felt happy and then read the list every day and whenever they were feeling low. We unpack the word “should” and redefining boundaries in a way that works for us. Can a CEO live in a van and work 4 days a week? How did Kat redefine their norms to adjust to van life? Scheduling in van life has to be flexible, and not only did Kat have to adjust their idea of what work looked like, but their team had to adjust and refine their set up. Kat inspired Kat and John to take their own van trip. We discuss the planning of a van trip and how it’s a metaphor for life in that you can plan and plan, but you often run into and need things you don’t plan for. Both Kats learned that lesson in their van trips. Our lessons? Bring duct tape and an ax! We dive into vulnerability. Kat felt most vulnerable when they learned that their estranged father was reading their book. They wrote it for teenagers and people who could use the lessons they’ve learned in their life. What they found was that it felt most vulnerable when they knew people who they know in their personal life were reading it. They’re more used to people they work with knowing more about them from their work. Kat talks in their letters about hard things, but has very clear boundaries. Their rule is to not write about anything they aren’t certain about in their life. We talk more about boundaries and how they determine what to share and how to handle people who ask questions they aren’t ready to answer. Lastly we talked about staying realistically positive without being toxic. Kat’s answer is to focus on now vs the huge picture so that life isn’t overwhelming. One of Kat’s motivations is around helping kids, specifically queer and trans kids, feel comfortable and safe in their bodies. They mentor adults about being queer in the workplace and tell us some stories about how they help people live authentically. Get Kat's book, This Was All An Accident: Letters and Life Lessons (https://www.amazon.com/This-Was-All-Accident-Letters/dp/B0CGKR449L) on Amazon Kat's blog and personal site: katrinakibben.com (https://katrinakibben.com) Linkedin: katrinakibben (https://www.linkedin.com/in/katrinakibben/) Twitter/X: @KatrinaKibben (https://twitter.com/KatrinaKibben) Facebook: katrina.kibben (https://www.facebook.com/katrina.kibben) Instagram: @katrinakibben (https://www.instagram.com/katrinakibben/)

Welcome to Real Job Talk Robert Gilbreath! Robert talks to us about his career journey as a solopreneur, entrepreneur, and an employee and how he treats each role like he’s the owner of the company. Robert Gilbreath is an experienced solopreneur and entrepreneur, and joins the show to share his insights on work mindset, ownership of roles, networking, and evaluating side gigs. He has a diverse background that spans SaaS, ecommerce, partnerships, marketplaces, and product, with experience on both sides of the table across all those areas. Tune in as he delves into the importance of networking, being positive, and helping others. Robert shares his approach to evaluating new opportunities and emphasises finding purpose in what he does. We also touc “Act as if….” every company you work at is your own. Is a mantra (one of many) Robert Gilbreath brings into each role he has. It helps to guide him in making each organization better in some way from before he was there. Marketing is an interesting discipline because people throughout the company will have opinions on the work you are doing. The best marketers can switch industries- the academic side and the creative side and it’s about understanding your audience and how to connect with them. Success is often tied to taking ownership - of your role, your career, and your journey. That means saying “yes” in early career, trying new things, and owning both success and learning. We talked with Robert about side gigs and his approach to networking as a way to make sure he always has something interesting going on. Robert’s goal is to know everyone in Austin doing ecommerce so that he is always touching what’s happening in his space. Connect with Robert Gibreath Twitter/X: @robertgatx (https://twitter.com/robertgatx) Website: robertgilbreath.com (https://www.robertgilbreath.com/) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertgilbreath/

Welcome to Kelli Thompson! Kelli is a speaker, coach, author, and HR executive who left the corporate world to pursue her passion for helping women advance their careers. She is driven to help more women make it to the board room, advance their careers, and bring their best, most authentic selves to the office. Today we’re going to be focusing on talking with Kelli about the very important topic of salary negotiation. Kelli’s career started in banking, where in her journey in HR and leadership development she noticed that most of leadership were men. She found joy as an HR executive in helping people figure out paths to develop their careers. She then worked for a tech company where once again she found joy in helping with career development. She liked that so much so that she worked for a consultant who specialized in career development and broke out on her own to do one-on-one leadership coaching -- which also included less travel. We asked Kelli her thoughts on Lean In and how she feels about women’s journey into the boardroom. Kelli agreed with us that the “do it all” idea can burn women out -- especially since women tend to take on more unpaid and unpromotable administrative work at work and take on more at home. We all agreed that being an executive of any gender requires a ton of support at home and in life so that you can dump what’s not necessary, doesn’t give joy, and you need to delegate and create boundaries. In order to grow in the executive ranks, Kelli asks us how can we show up and do what we want to do without feeling resentful. We ask Kelli how she coaches a burned out person who wants to get ahead. She said they usually are ahead -- but that it’s not sustainable. She first asks where in their life they feel most resentful. They eliminate just that and focus on what needs to be addressed so they can focus. We ask about when salary should be discussed in the job search -- up front as early as possible. And salary transparency helps! The issue with salary transparency in the remote first world is that the range is inclusive of all areas, which means that the range can include the salary in Omaha and NYC, which won't be the same. What that does is encourage transparency in the conversation, but also, Kelli says to look up jobs listed locally to know what your range is. And if the range is less than you want, there’s no harm in having an initial conversation and seeing if there is any flexibility. That said, if the job is being upleveled, you want to know where that “lower level” work will go -- it may still sit with you. To get the most out of salary negotiation, you want to talk about what you bring to the company (not your personal needs), the skills you bring, and what the company can get from your skills (increase revenue, lower expense, reduce risk, lead change) in order to demonstrate what you’re asking for. And if the range is more than you were expecting, keep that poker face! Just say, “sounds good” and remember, that initial number is still negotiable. Get what you’re worth! What’s negotiable in a job offer? Probably not the benefits plan, but sometimes you can adjust the boundaries of hybrid/remote situations and often learning and development opportunities. By understanding the benefits packages you’ll know what you can/can’t negotiate. Usually that first offer isn’t the ceiling. You can try for more. The worst thing they can say is no. Good people get hired, promoted, and raises even in a bad economy. Good people also get let go. Show your value and make sure your skills are what your company and other companies need. The best negotiators, even in a down economy, acknowledge the environment and showed what they can bring. The best negotiators are kind, direct, and show their value. Also, don’t forget that we learn a lot about you during the negotiation process, but also you learn a lot about the company by how they behave during the offer process. What does confidence look like in salary...

Today we're talking about giving feedback at work. In talking with managers at work, Liz encouraged people to ask their people how they wanted to get feedback and how to deliver news positive and negative. Feedback, when given in a timely and kind manner, can be a gift. But often we forget key steps like finding out how someone likes to receive feedback or framing it in a way that makes sure your point is conveyed. Feedback tip #1 is to make it as timely as possible. When you finish something, talk about what went well and what could do better. When you’re in a team reflect as a team and as a manager give feedback fairly and in a timely manner so the person can learn in the moment. With performance reviews, if a manager doesn’t ask how you’d like to receive your review, for you to ask to see it up front (if that’s your preference). Ask for what you want/need in order to have the feedback discussion be as helpful as possible. Most managers will say yes, but if they don’t, you can say that you may not be as responsive or talkative because you need time to digest feedback to have the most impactful conversation. How do you respond to a review that is a surprise? Ask for some time to digest and ask for a follow up meeting. Then take a minute to reflect and write down your responses. You can write an emotional response as long as you throw it away and write a fact-based response. You don’t want to come across as emotional or reactive. Sometimes, if you believe a review is wrong or unfair, you need to consider the source and how much you respect their opinion on your performance. You thank them, respect their opinion, but then share your viewpoint and facts that back it up. Make your point with facts and evidence- be factual but not accusatory. The goal is to get closer aligned and share perception and meet in the middle. What if your manager refuses to talk about your review? The answer is “ok, I was hoping we could talk about it.” and then you need to make a career decision….When you realize there won’t be a conversation, you get out of the conversation as quickly and calmly as possible. You can give the rebuttal to your HR person to make sure your viewpoint is filed. What about less formal feedback? We talk about a friend whose boss unknowingly gave them really insulting feedback in front of peers. Our friend was LIVID and wanted to know what to do. We advised them to use the “When EVENT A happened I thought B and felt C” and to talk it though in the next 1:1. To then say that you know that’s not what they meant to do, and ask for them to give constructive feedback privately. Tell people how you want to communicate in real time. If you like Slack, say so. Same w email. Saying something like “I’m most organized in email, so please communicate with me there” doesn’t put them on guard but helps them know how to work with you. Ask people their preferences and honor them and that will help you build relationships. Your goal is to build real, authentic, kind working relationships and our communication style is on us to communicate.

We talk about a topic that has come up extensively over the last few months -- severance packages. What are they? What aren't they? Why do they exist? What do you do when you get them? Our goal is to answer all of the questions we get around them to help you learn and be prepared if you’re faced with them. Question 1: What is a severance package and what is the point of them especially if I’m an at will employee? "At Will" means that you don’t belong to the company. Why do companies give severance? To absolve blame and because it’s the right thing to do to get the person to their next job since looking may be unexpected. It is an agreement to keep quiet about fault, i.e., it’s money to say that this was a no-fault situation. It can have a combination of compensation and benefits, talks about your last day, and what needs to be done to earn it (like return your stuff or finish a project). Note that there is a timeline around signing it (45 days for over 40 if more than 1 person, different rules if WARN is enacted). Take your time to understand your package. Please know that people delivering the news are having a horrible day too. Question 2: Can I negotiate a severance package? Not really, unless you have very clear evidence that the company has done something wrong by you. It is usually determined by a formula. One exception is if you have a pending legal action or a documented legal case, or if you are an executive who has negotiated a separation ahead of time. Potentially yes, for sales commissions that close by a certain date. Don’t compare yours with the ones from other companies -- they’re all different and have different terms of their packages. Question 3: What can I expect once I hear I’m part of a RIF (Reduction in Force)? What the package is -- what it includes and what it doesn’t. Get a lot of paperwork (15-50 pages+) with all of the terms of the agreements. Last day and when and how to return your stuff. Expectations around what it takes to get severance and when you have to sign (don’t wait until the last day- it’s just annoying). COBRA information, which helps you stay on your benefit plan for 18 months after you leave the company. Question 4: Should I sue/get a lawyer? Not unless you have documentation that proves you’ve been harassed, etc. Have someone to review the paperwork. Know that a lawyer put your package together so it’s probably pretty sound. Question 5: Thoughts on posting my RIF on Linkedin/social media? You do you Being supportive to those affected is lovely, but you’re not RIFed, send direct messages and be supportive of people, but ndon't do a “I’m sad my colleagues are gone” posts. Share their profile, write a recommendation, and make the help about them, not you. Green circle on LinkedIn -- yes or no? YES! It makes you more searchable! Say what you want and leave your feelings to your inner circle. On Linkedin and social be positive and looking towards the future. Personal reach outs are better than big dramatic posts When you share desperation, people feel badly and helpless. Keeping it professional in professional groups and on Linkedin will help people know if and how they can help find the next job, but saying that if you don’t get a job soon you won’t be able to pay your mortgage makes people feel guilty and doesn’t work in your favor in professional circles. To wrap it up, being a part of a RIF is hard, scary, and heavy on the heart. To be prepared, listen to our Looking for a Job Learning Track episodes found on the resources page of our website (https://realjobtalk.com/resources). We recommend always having a current resume and Linkedin, and keeping your skills up-to-date in case you find yourself in an unexpected job search.

Liz and Kat Zoom in with Mpume Ncube-Daka all the way from South Africa to talk about change conversations. Mpume works with people to drive the best decisions in their growth and development. She is passionate about personal and professional development and learning through change. Mpume thought she’d be a doctor when she grew up, but realized she needed to change direction after a failed math class. She then became an accountant and has built a career on change. After laughing at humanities students in college, Mpume finds herself a student of people and passionate about psychology and human development. With careers in marketing, business strategy, accounting, and finance, she can see all sides of business problems and be able to connect with her clients. We ask Mpume about navigating workplace relationships - what advice does she give for navigating the modern workplace? She reminds us to take time to relate to people as human. Take out the noise and get to know someone as a human. Navigating a workplace culture is about navigating that company’s particular cultural nuances first. Once you understand that, you bring your authentic self into the space. First you want to observe how feedback is given and received- preferably at the interview- and see if it’s a place you want to work. We ask about navigating a full career change vs a just job change. The #1 thing is self-awareness. If you know yourself, you know what excites you, what you don’t want, and you want to do things that excite you and make you money. What skills and strengths do you have that are marketable? You may love to color, but it may not pay the mortgage. You don’t want to get all of the meaning of your life from work. We work to have the life that we want- all happiness can’t come from the workforce. Communicating effectively is a key skill to thrive in today’s work world. Mpume has ABCs of work communication. For her, #1 is interpersonal communication, which includes both verbal and non-verbal communication. We all want to be heard, no matter if someone agrees or not. If we feel heard and listened to we can work together. Be good at listening and giving the time to hear someone’s opinions. And it’s important to clarify that you heard the thing they were actually saying. They key to effective listening? Be present. Not checking email. Not checking Slack. Not prepping dinner. Clarify what they are saying to make sure you understand. We ask how do we stay present in today’s crazy world? Don’t make it about you. When it’s about understanding what the other person is saying, you can focus on their message. It comes to company culture- if everyone expects instant communication and people are Slacking during meetings, you’re not encouraging listening and being present. We ask for advice on behalf of our listeners who feel stuck in their career. Mpume wants you to look at what “stuck” looks like for you. Why do you feel stuck? Get to the bottom of why you’re feeling that way before you start to solve the problem. If you’re stuck, how do you getting out of the hole? Create goals to challenge yourself to get out of that space. Does being stuck feel different for women? Yes! Sometimes we need to make choices that work for us and what we want in our lives. That said, many women want to be super women and not drop anything, and we come at our situation from a guilt perspective. When we realize what we need and want and stop feeling guilty about what we aren’t doing, we find our power and our gratitude.

Today we’re talking about job abandonment -- something we’ve each seen a handful of times in our corporate careers. (Kat saw it more with people working in retail.) We want you to know what job abandonment is, how to avoid it, and what the ripple effect can be when someone abandons their job. What is job abandonment? Job abandonment is when you just disappear from work and nobody knows where you are for a certain period of time, even just a few days. It often leads to you losing your job. When someone doesn’t show up without any notice, management and HR starts asking around. Then they call, email, text, Slack, and try to get in touch with someone any way they can. HR gets involved when they resort to using personal and emergency contact info to get in touch. It’s a tough balance in trying to find the person and see that they are ok -- but you don’t want to set off too many alarm bells, just in case the whole thing was caused by a dead phone battery and an alarm not going off. At a point when the job abandonment is suspected, the authorities may be called to do a wellness check, hospitals may be called to see if someone’s there, and if someone knows the person’s kid’s school, the school may be called to see if the family is ok. Before letting someone go for job abandonment, management and HR will try to find them and make sure they are ok. Kat knew someone who just couldn’t deal with life and disconnected with their work. After trying to find them, the president of the company showed up at their house. Job abandonments are very stressful for managers and HR people, even when the person turns up OK.The worry that happens when someone disappears is very real, and companies want to avoid invoking their job abandonment policy. As the person who is managing your career, you do not want to be source of that stress and you want to be seen as responsible and reliable. If your company or manager doesn’t know that they can rely on you, your career in that role will be short-lived. And when you go to find your next job, it may be difficult to explain what happened if you simply burned your bridges and left. To avoid this, we have some tips to avoid noncommunication and miscomunication with your workplace when you really just can't come in. Someone you know will be aware if something is happening to you. Make sure they also have your manager’s contact info. You don’t have to tell work everything about your personal life, just what you need to communicate what to expect. For example, " need to go on medical leave" or "I need to take a week of personal leave." That's enough. Crazy concept: your company doesn’t pay you to not show up. BUT this has happened to other people before you, and because of that, the company likely has policies in place to support you if you can’t work. And your country may also have labor laws that cover this as well. You need to communicate enough to make sure that your job is protected. Don’t be the person who causes angst for others, and don’t have your decisions cause angst and disruption for your team or for coworkers depending on you. If you need time off, ask for it and take it. When people disappear from their job, projects get derailed, trust gets broken, the rumor mill goes nuts, and colleagues get overloaded. Don’t be the person who made this happen. Communicate, don't just ghost.

Welcome to Real Job Talk, Angela Loeb! We refer our clients who need their resumes done to Angela because she literally wrote the book(s) on resumes and job searching. Angela started out helping people to get into beauty school- she interviewed people and helped them get into classes. Angela got into recruiting by answering an online ad (a rarity!) and worked at an agency for many years until the 2009 recession. She wrote a book, conducted seminars, and hosted a radio show on “blog talk radio” on the job search process. We asked Angela about going out on her own vs working for agencies. Angela had a mentor who encouraged her to work from home and branch out beyond their agency. She started her business as a side gig (we highly recommend doing this first!) working with individuals until she realized that she could support herself with her own business. Angela helps people to brand themselves, write their resumes, and be able to tell their stories. You are marketing you, and you need to figure out your value proposition/branding statement. As a job seeker, you have to position yourself like a product. So how do you show resume readers what you can do for them? You think about what you mainly want _to do, and then highlight it with the rest of _what you can do sprinkled around the side. You want resume readers to see you how you want to be featured. If you start with your resume, it’s just an inventory of skills. If you lead with what you WANT to do, you tailor your resume to the job you want. If you assume everyone’s going to want to hire you, you’re not thinking about your target audience. Resume readers want skills, not adjectives. A lot of people come to coaches and resume writers to help them get clarity about how they can have impact. We asked Angela about the use of social media and how to be consistent in branding across different media so that your overall picture between your resume and social media is clear. Angela also says not to copy your job description on a resume, but agrees that you need to show that your experience matches the experience they are looking for. And, while many job descriptions talk about intangibles like “team player,” to say that you're a team player is white noise on your resume. You need to SHOW that you’re a team player, results driven or detail oriented in your accomplishments vs by listing those qualities. Front end work to get your strengths and goals clear is critical in a successful job search. Is the Great Resignation over? What’s the job market like today? Angela points out job cycles, and recommends that hard times cause companies to need different skills. We may end up in a limited hiring bubble, but right now companies are still screaming for talent. You may want to move to a role that feels stable for you. It comes down to knowing what you do that creates value and impact and can highlight it, you’re going to be more successful in your job search because you can pivot, modify, and adapt. If you have a skills gap, you need to fill it. Show companies you want to work for that you understand their business. You can get those gaps filled by volunteering, and also can expand your network that way too! Being a connector and getting to know other people can absolutely help you get your next job. Commenting on what you’re interested in and posting about it helps you become a thought leader in that space. Lastly, we asked Angela about video interviews and resumes. We’re seeing employers using more asynchronous video interviews. It’s convenient for the hiring managers and companies. Videos allow you to show people who you are, but it’s important to stand out and have an edge. Remember, you can’t have a video resume be too long or you’ll lose your audience. On video, you need to be “on”, engaging, and interesting. Watch examples of video resumes on sites like Bitable and use templates to get your message out there. Angela on Twitter: @angelarloeb (https://twitter.com/angelarloeb)

In this episode we advise on what to do when your company gets acquired. Most of us don’t know if our company is going to change structure, ownership, or leadership, so when something big is announced it can be a bit shocking and can cause us to ask, “What happens to me?” What do you do that day? Acknowledge your feelings - you’re going to get flooded with emotion. It’s scary. The number 1 thing you can do is take care of yourself. Continue to breathe. Take a walk. Understand that the feelings of uncertainty are normal and expected, but don’t pretend they aren’t there. That said, if you’re a manager or a leader, you need to take a deep breath and lead your people. You can tell them how you feel, but also exude confidence. Don’t make promises you can’t keep. Be as honest and forthright as you can. Admit what you don’t know. And save your meltdown for time away from your team. As an individual contributor, attend all meetings the company has for you, but make sure you keep getting your job done. Remember that being adaptable is the #1 skill that help people have successful careers. Being reliable is always helpful in staying a necessary resource. As an individual contributor you can control your adaptability, your attitude, your willingness to help, and your performance. Being the person who asks how you can help with the transition will make you invaluable. After day 1, learn about any upsides or golden handcuffs that come along with the deal. Are there bonuses for staying? Does anything happen to your pay? Your benefits? Your equity? Who at the new company does the same thing as you? Knowing your situation helps you assess where you can fit in the new org. That said, it’s a great time to brush up your resume and start exploring opportunities. Look for ways to help ease the transition in time of change. Post-acquisition layoffs happen. Be ready. Assess the culture of the new place. How did they announce it? What was the welcome like? How happy do the new people seem? Judge the new place against your must-have list. Be aware. Ask questions. Be a calm force looking at things objectively to best assess the situation. Look at how you’re welcomed- you learn a lot about a company when you see how they handle an acquisition. Is it employee first? Are you left in the dark? Are they focused on assuaging your fears? How is your manager handling it? Are there skill gaps between your old and new responsibilities? Try and fill them whenever possible if you want to stay and make yourself a stronger candidate for an internal or external search. Do whatever you need to do to be a great candidate for any job search. Figure out what this means to you, talk to your Board of Advisors for advice, and give it a chance to see if it can be a good change.