Getting Unstuck – Cultivating Curiosity

Guest Hurley Winkler is a writer and editor from Jacksonville, FL. Her newsletter, "Lonely Victories," is among the top Substack publications in the Literature category. She teaches creative writing at Flagler College. Summary In this episode, I speak with writer and teacher Hurley Winkler about journaling, creative practice, and building a sustainable writing life. Hurley traces her path to writing back to childhood anxiety and early journaling inspired by Harriet the Spy, and describes how writing eventually became her preferred independent art form after early interests in theater. She discusses her work as a writing teacher and how her philosophy balances encouragement with challenge while meeting students where they are. A central focus of the conversation is Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way, Hurley once interviewed Julia Cameron, including morning pages, artist dates, and creative accountability. Hurley shares how working through the program — especially with partners — helped her cultivate courage, clarify goals, and move forward with major creative and life decisions. The discussion also explores resistance, practical strategies for writing through it, and the value of containers like timed sessions and word counts. Finally, Hurley also reflects on leaving social media due to its addictive nature, how that decision led to an ADHD diagnosis and treatment, and how reclaiming attention is an ongoing process. Throughout, she emphasizes writing community, "lonely victories," and the importance of writer friendships in making the creative journey less solitary. The critical takeaway Writing may produce "lonely victories," but building writer friendships and community makes the creative journey more resilient and sustainable. Referenced The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron Website: https://hurleywinkler.com/ Substack: https://lonelyvictories.substack.com/ The language of Letting Go by Melody Beattie

Guest Heather Lende is the author of four books centered on her life in Haines, Alaska: If You Lived Here, I'd Know Your Name, Take Good Care of the Garden and the Dogs, Find the Good: Life Lessons from a Small-town Obituary Writer, and, most recently, Of Bears and Ballots, about her adventures in local politics. Heather served as Alaska Writer Laureate from 2021-2023, has an honorary Ph.D in Humane Letters from the University of Alaska, Anchorage, and is the recipient of the Middlebury College Alumni Award. Summary In this, my 400th episode, I sit down with writer Heather Lende to talk about how she approaches her craft and what it means to write from, and for, a real community. Living in the small town of Haines, Alaska (pop ~2000), Heather sees writing less as performance and more as an act of careful observation, listening, and responsibility. Our conversation touches on her long-running obituary column, which requires her to listen carefully, get the details right, and tell people's stories with humility and care. She sees herself as "an observer of life," while her careful attention to people and their details has earned her the label of "story catcher." We talk about what changes when you write about people you know—or at least know of. We explore what I call Heather's nonlinear writing process, her discomfort with neat conclusions, and how grief, memory, and daily observation shape her work. We also explore doubt, discipline, and the tension between creative ambition and ordinary life. Throughout the conversation, writing emerges as a way of staying connected—to place, to people, and to the small, meaningful moments that make up a life. We dive deeply into the story "Alaskans Dear" from her book, If You Lived Here, I'd Know Your Name, to understand her writing process and what it means to live in a small town. The Essential Point Storytelling for Heather is not just creative work, but a relational act that binds her to the community she serves. Social Media Website:https://www.heatherlende.com/ Referenced See the audio file of what Heather is reading in the show notes for this episode at https://www.queticocoaching.com/blog

Guest Adam Bronstein grew up exploring the Adirondack Mountains of upstate New York and knew from a young age that he wanted to work to protect wild places. He received a BS from SUNY College of Environmental Science & Forestry in Environmental Studies and Geographic Information Technologies. Adam first joined the Western Watershed Project staff in 2020. Outside his capacity at WWP, Adam hosts and produces Our Public Lands podcast, advocates for Wilderness, and is a dedicated public lands hunter and angler—always looking for that elusive cow-free habitat. Summary In this episode of Getting Unstuck: Cultivating Curiosity, Jeff speaks with Adam Bronstein, Oregon Director of the Western Watersheds Project and host of the Our Public Lands podcast, about long-standing and emerging threats to America's public lands. Adam places today's controversies—grazing, land sell-offs, road building, logging, and political pressure on land-management agencies—within a deeper historical context, showing that these conflicts are not new but recurring. Much of the conversation centers on livestock grazing in the arid West, which Adam argues is ecologically unsustainable, heavily subsidized, and responsible for widespread watershed and habitat degradation, despite supplying only a small fraction of the nation's beef. The discussion also explores how language such as "restoration" and "ecosystem health" is often used to justify extractive practices that further damage public lands. Adam highlights brighter spots, including dam removal and beaver restoration, as examples of how ecosystems recover when human pressures are reduced. Throughout the episode, he emphasizes that public lands belong to everyone and that meaningful reform will require public vigilance, political engagement, and a willingness to rethink how these landscapes are managed. The critical takeaway The central takeaway is that many of today's public-lands crises stem from entrenched, subsidized extractive practices—and that ecosystems recover most effectively when lands are protected, pressure is reduced, and the public actively defends its shared ownership. Referenced Websites https://westernwatersheds.org/ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/our-public-lands/id1752585783 https://wildernesswatch.org/ https://johnmuirproject.org/ https://www.backcountryhunters.org/ https://www.standingtrees.org/ Articles/Substacks https://open.substack.com/pub/westernwatersheds/p/a-backdoor-land-grab-signed-in-plain?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email https://open.substack.com/pub/morethanjustparks/p/everything-the-trump-administration?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web Books Battle for the Wilderness: https://a.co/d/h2C43MK This America of Ours: https://a.co/d/jc832WT A Wilderness Original–The Life of Bob Marschall: https://a.co/d/fXZ4RvX

Guest April Obersteller is a people-centered leader, operator, and founder of And Not Or, a community and leadership platform built around the belief that we don't have to choose. She has led customer and employee experience across iconic consumer brands, including YETI and woom, and now leads community and experience at Recess. April also hosts The AND Podcast, where she shares real conversations about leadership, growth, and humanity. Summary In this episode, Jeff talks with April Obersteller, co-founder and CEO of And, about what it really takes to build companies that succeed by investing in people as much as products. Drawing on her experience at fast-growing brands like YETI and her work with startups and scale-ups, April challenges the false choice between caring for employees and driving business results. Instead, she advocates for an "and" philosophy—holding space for profitability and people, clarity and uncertainty, action and reflection. April explains why internal customers are often overlooked, how intentional care doesn't require flashy programs, and why culture can't be faked with posters or slogans. She also discusses brave leadership, emphasizing awareness, courage, and the willingness to act amid discomfort. Throughout the conversation, April highlights how focusing on employee success ultimately creates better customer experiences, stronger teams, and more resilient organizations. The episode offers a thoughtful exploration of leadership, scalability, and how curiosity and creativity emerge when leaders resist either-or thinking and instead embrace the complexity of building something meaningful. The Essential Point Sustainable business success comes from embracing "and" thinking—supporting people and performance together—rather than treating employee care as secondary to growth or profit. Social Media & Referenced LinkedIn Website

Guest Hal Herring is a long-time contributing editor and writer at Field and Stream magazine and has covered conservation and the environment for national and international publications for almost thirty years. His work was featured in the Patagonia documentary Public Trust in 2020, and he is at work on a book about the American public lands. Summary In this episode of Getting Unstuck: Cultivating Curiosity, Jeff speaks with writer and public-lands advocate Hal H. about renewed political efforts to weaken protections for America's public lands. The conversation centers on three major flashpoints: Senator Mike Lee's failed attempt to sell off federal lands under the guise of affordable housing, the Department of Agriculture's proposal to rescind the 2001 Roadless Rule, and a quieter movement to transfer federal public lands to state control. Hal explains how these efforts fit into a long historical pattern of privatization attempts, driven by ideology and commercial interests rather than public benefit. He walks through why the Roadless Rule was created—highlighting watershed protection, crumbling road infrastructure, wildfire risk, and taxpayer cost—and why the evidence overwhelmingly supports keeping it in place. Throughout the discussion, Hal emphasizes that public lands are a uniquely American idea, central to clean water, wildlife, recreation, and democratic access. The episode closes with a reminder that public voice matters: citizen pressure has stopped land grabs before, and continued vigilance is essential to protect lands held in common for future generations. The three takeaways Efforts to sell, develop, or transfer public lands are not new—they are part of a long-running campaign to privatize shared resources. The Roadless Rule protects watersheds, wildlife, and taxpayers by limiting costly, damaging road construction that agencies cannot maintain. Public lands endure only when citizens actively defend them; public pressure has proven effective in stopping harmful policies. References / Links Hal's website

Summary In this episode, Cultivating Curiosity host Jeff Ikler reflects on his love of year-end "Best Books" lists and why reading sits at the heart of his podcast and personal life. He welcomes lists from institutions like The New York Times and the New York Public Library, seeing them as both a defense against book banning and a source of discovery, connection, and generosity. For Ikler, books spark curiosity, deepen empathy, and create bonds—whether through gifting or thoughtful conversation with authors. He also underscores podcast hosts' responsibility to read their guests' work in full, arguing that preparation honors both listeners and writers. Ultimately, Ikler finds himself drawn to books that slow him down through careful observation and reflection, or expand his understanding through deeply researched history, reinforcing reading as both nourishment and refuge. Three Major Takeaways Reading lists are acts of resistance, curiosity, and connection—not just recommendations. Thoughtful reading is essential to meaningful conversation, especially in podcasting. The most rewarding books either sharpen our attention to the present or deepen our understanding of the past. Jeff's favorite books in 2025 Crossings – How Road Ecology is Shaping the Future of Our Planet by Ben Goldfarb. Quoting from the book jacket, "Creatures from antelope to salmon are losing their ability to migrate in search of food and mates; invasive plants hitch rides in tire treads, road salt contaminates lakes and rivers; and the very, very noise of traffic chases songbirds from vast swaths of habitat." In this beautifully crafted book, Goldfarb makes the case that overpasses and underpasses are essential for reducing the deaths of animals and humans who inevitably come into brutal contact with one another. One of the chief takeaways in our era of divisiveness is that road ecologists and other scientists, insurance companies, and government officials are working collaboratively to solve problems. They have different goals for doing so, but they're working effectively at the intersection. You can access my two-part podcast interview on Getting Unstuck–Cultivating Curiosity with Ben in episodes 347 and 348. The Comfort of Crows – A Backyard Year by Margaret Renkl. This title came from one of last year's best books, and it did not disappoint. Quoting from the book jacket, "Margaret Renkl presents a literary devotional: fifty-two chapters that follow the creatures and plants in her backyard over the course of a year." How often do you read a chapter or passage because the writing is so moving? If you're interested in slowing down and seeing more of your immediate world, this is a great place to start. This small volume is a course in observation and reflection. Challenger – A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space by Adam Higginbotham. Like many Americans who watched the Space Shuttle Challenger break apart just seventy-three seconds into its mission, I thought I knew the story, but I was so wrong. As the book jacket explains, "…the Challenger disaster was a defining moment in twentieth-century history–one that forever changed the way America thought of itself and its optimistic view of the future. Yet the full story of what happened, and why, has never been told." I was moved to head-shaking anger after reading how decisions were made and bungled. Higginbotham's explanation of a highly complicated topic is beautifully presented. The book is a primer on the dangers of overly complex and competing bureaucracies and ego. Remember Us – American Sacrifice, Dutch Freedom, and a Forever Promise Forged in World War II by Robert M. Edsel with Bret Witter. Remember Us documents twelve lives connected to the American Military Cemetery near the small village of Margraten, Netherlands. Approximately 8,300 Americans who helped liberate the Netherlands from the Nazis and the grip of fascism during World War II are buried there. One of these...

Guests Why are school children more anxious, aggressive, and shut down than ever before? We first heard answers from educators Tamara Neufeld Strijack and Hannah Beach in April 2020. Hannah takes us up to the present in this update episode. Tamara is the academic dean of the Neufeld Institute, where she develops and delivers courses and workshops that support parents, teachers, and helping professionals around the world in making sense of children through developmental science. Tamara works as a registered clinical counsellor, parent consultant, and sessional instructor for several universities, where she lectures for the faculties of education and counseling. Hannah is an award-winning educator, author, and keynote speaker. She was recognized by the Canadian Human Rights Commission in 2017 as one of five featured change-makers in Canada. She is a Neufeld course facilitator, delivers professional development services across the country, provides emotional health consulting to schools, and speaks at national and international conferences about the power of bringing more feeling and human connection into the classroom. Together, they are the authors of Reclaiming Our Students: Why Children Are More Anxious, Aggressive, and Shut Down Than Ever―And What We Can Do About It – a book about restoring the emotional well-being of children. As stated in the book's preface, "Academics can no longer be divorced from matters of the heart." Summary The core takeaway is this: children today are emotionally overloaded and under-supported, and until adults—especially teachers—reestablish themselves as consistent, caring, emotionally safe anchors, academic learning will continue to fall short. Tamara and Hannah argue that modern cultural shifts—loss of free play, constant entertainment, diminished time with adults, and the dominance of technology—have deprived kids of the natural outlets and relationships they need to process alarm, frustration, and sadness. Schools cannot "fix" behavior through discipline or curriculum tweaks alone. The starting point is restoring emotional connection, safe expression, and relational leadership in the classroom. Listen for: Why are our kids in the position today of being more anxious, aggressive, and shut down than ever before? What has been the impact of children losing time for free play – and of entertainment becoming the substitute for free play? What are "void moments," and what purpose do they serve? How can one teacher make a huge difference in the risk factors of children? What are the characteristics of the "caring leader"? Why we need to provide children with outlets for expression, and why are those outlets especially important in the online learning environment we find ourselves in today? — Hannah Connect with Hannah and Tamara Reclaiming Our Students on Amazon Book website, including the "Inside / Outside Handbook Hannah on LinkedIN Hannah's website Tamara's website Recommended The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt The Myth of Normal by Gabor Mate

Update: If you listened to last week's podcast, you know that today's episode about the historic Apollo 8 mission to the moon in late December 1968 was one of my most popular of 2024. The lessons from that mission, which I discussed in episode 344, are just as important, if not more so, today in episode 394. An artist's rendering of Apollo 8 as it photographs "Earthrise." Summary In this episode, I reflect on the Apollo 8 mission to the moon in late December 1968 and the turbulent year that preceded it. The episode highlights enduring lessons on inequality, collective problem-solving, and environmental stewardship. It urges renewed respect for history and a commitment to addressing modern challenges with the same ingenuity that defined the space race. Three Takeaways Historical Literacy: The mission symbolizes humanity's capacity for courage, teamwork, and ingenuity, offering hope and a sense of shared accomplishment amidst turmoil. Historical Inequality: The unresolved issues of racial, gender, and economic inequities persist, echoing the divisions of 1968. Environmental Responsibility: "Earthrise" underscores the planet's fragility, emphasizing the need for collective stewardship over self-interest. Social Media Rocket Men by Robert Kurson

Summary This coming February, Getting Unstuck—Cultivating Curiosity will start its eighth year. My goal with this podcast is to host guests who will make us think, "I didn't know anything about that," or "That's something I hadn't considered," or "I might be able to apply that to some aspect of my life." In each case, "that" refers to the topic being discussed. And the topics will vary widely. Unlike other shows that focus on a single topic, such as politics, entertainment, or leadership, Getting Untuck's focus is eclectic. This year, I offered episodes about how to inspire student curiosity, the healing powers of fly fishing, writing, the Holocaust and World War II, marketing, and a score of other topics. Getting Unstuck—Cultivating Curiosity continues to rank in the top 3 percent of all podcasts globally, where just over 4 million options are vying for your ears' attention. We just published our 392nd episode, which is notable given that most podcasts don't reach ten episodes. I say "we" because a special thanks goes to my engineer, Neil Hughes. He manages all the back-end publishing logistics and makes every episode sound professional. He also welcomes me to pull up a virtual chair for periodic emotional therapy when needed. To say I would be lost without him doesn't begin to do his services justice. As we approach the end of the year, I want to thank you, my listeners. I wouldn't be able to continue doing this show without your interest and support. Thank you. I'm going to recap 2025 in three parts: Part One: The three episodes that you listened to the most. Part Two: The one episode that was particularly special to me. Part Three: The three most popular backlist episodes. Part One: The three episodes that you listened to the most. (In no particular order.) 1. Episode 344 - "Earthrise"—What Apollo 8 Should Have Taught Us This episode reflects on the Apollo 8 mission's iconic "Earthrise" image in late December 1968 and the turbulent year that preceded it. It highlights enduring lessons on inequality, collective problem-solving, and environmental stewardship. The episode urges renewed respect for history and a commitment to addressing modern challenges with the same ingenuity that defined the space race. This episode's popularity doesn't surprise me, so I'm going to devote next week's episode to replaying it. 2. Episode 348 - Breaking Barriers: Men, Vulnerability and Emotional Growth In this episode, I talked with Bob Reece, a mental health counselor and fly fishing guide, about his work addressing the mental health of men and at-risk teens. We discussed overcoming societal stigmas around vulnerability, providing men with tools to manage emotions, and the transformative impact of connecting with nature through fly fishing to improve relationships and professional lives. Bob emphasized the need to normalize vulnerability among men, challenging traditional notions of masculinity and fostering healthier emotional expression. This episode's popularity did not surprise me, given what I've read about the crisis single white men are experiencing. 3. Episode 369 - From Heart Attack to Health: A Plant-based Transformation In this episode, I talked with Byron Edgington, a Vietnam Veteran and commercial helicopter pilot. Byron shared his journey to a whole food, plant-based diet after a heart attack. He and his wife experienced dramatic health improvements almost immediately, including weight loss and the elimination of prescription medications. Our conversation expanded to explore the environmental impact of meat production, animal cruelty in factory farming, and how food choices can shape personal health and global sustainability. Two other episodes deserve mention. Episode 345 - Living with Purpose—Eastern and Western Insights Into Habits and Growth In this episode, Dr. Tamsin Astor, an author and habit scientist, discussed her approach to habit formation and the integration of Western and Eastern...

Guest Leah Ellis is a mom of four, writer, wedding officiant, Girl Scout leader, and founder of The Society of Child Entrepreneurs. Her life blends family, creativity, and leadership, from giggling over business plans at the breakfast table to mentoring kids through hands-on entrepreneurship. With her children as her compass, Leah is reminded daily that growth is messy, love is work, and compassion changes everything. Through SoCE, Nerdy Nuptials ICT, and Girl Scouts, she creates spaces where kids, couples, and communities are empowered to lead with authenticity. Leah believes in making room for both the mess and the magic of becoming. Melody Ellis is a young artist, child entrepreneur, and community leader who blends creativity, curiosity, and confidence in everything she does. As one of the first members of The Society of Child Entrepreneurs, Melody has grown up alongside SoCE, learning how to turn ideas into action through real-world business experiences. From designing artwork and products to helping at events, she leads with imagination and heart. Guided by creativity and compassion, Melody is learning that growth takes courage, mistakes are part of the journey, and kids are capable of amazing things right now. Through SoCE, Girl Scouts, and her own creative ventures, Melody is already making her mark as a leader in the making. Summary This episode explores how Leah Ellis and her daughter, Melody, turned a four-year-old's curiosity into a thriving business and, ultimately, a youth entrepreneurship movement. When the pandemic forced Leah to close her daycare, she pivoted into financial coaching—training that Melody absorbed from the living-room TV. Soon, Melody announced she wanted to start a business, launching a contact-free drip-art venture at age four. As her work grew, Leah recognized the need for a community of young entrepreneurs. She created the Society of Child Entrepreneurs, a structured program teaching business skills, financial literacy, adaptability, and leadership through hands-on experience. Kids learn pricing, budgeting, opportunity cost, and problem-solving, culminating in selling their products publicly. The conversation highlights extraordinary creativity—like kids designing a robot to stop porch pirates—and the confidence that grows when adults step back and ask questions rather than set limits. Leah also discusses the proposed "SoCE Law" to ease restrictions on kids starting businesses. Throughout, Melody reflects on how entrepreneurship has made her more adaptable, expressive, and willing to share her work. Together, they illustrate what happens when young people are empowered to build real businesses. The Essential Point The core message is that children are far more capable than adults often assume. Creativity, business sense, and problem-solving emerge naturally when they are given space, the ability to ask questions, and trust. Leah rejects the idea that "kids are the future," arguing instead that they are powerful now. By letting kids start real businesses, handle real challenges, and make real decisions, the Society of Child Entrepreneurs helps them develop confidence, adaptability, and an entrepreneurial mindset that carries into every part of their lives. Social Media & Referenced The Society of Child Entrepreneurs

Guest Jonathan Gluck is a writer and editor whose work has appeared in The New York Times and The Washington Post. He was deputy editor of New York magazine for ten years, after which he worked as managing editor of Vogue. He currently works at Fast Company. His work has been recognized with multiple National Magazine Awards. He is the author of An Exercise in Uncertainty, a memoir of how his journey with incurable cancer has reshaped his identity, marriage, and daily life. Summary In this deeply candid conversation, journalist and author Jon Gluck recounts his 22-year journey living with multiple myeloma, an incurable but treatable bone-marrow cancer. He describes the shock of his diagnosis at age 38 and the long, winding road of tests, remissions, relapses, and emerging treatments that have kept him alive. The discussion explores how Gluck navigates profound uncertainty, the illusion of control, and the emotional toll that chronic illness places not only on the patient but also on family and relationships. He and his wife confronted the strain of living in medical limbo, ultimately turning to therapy to rebuild connection during what he calls becoming "cancer zombies." The conversation also highlights the restorative role of fly fishing, which Gluck describes as one of the few activities capable of placing him entirely in the present. This genuine flow state quiets fear and anxiety. He shares broader lessons about empathy, how to speak to someone with a serious diagnosis, and the importance of intentionally pursuing joy, connection, and meaning while living alongside uncertainty. The Essential Point The heart of the discussion is Jon's insight into living meaningfully in the face of uncertainty. His story shows that while we cannot control the inevitabilities of illness or life's unpredictability, we can control how we show up—seeking information, accepting our limits, nurturing relationships, and embracing activities that restore us. His emphasis on intentionally choosing joy, connection, and presence—even in the shadow of chronic illness—offers a universal lesson for anyone facing their own uncertainties. Social Media Facebook https://www.facebook.com/jon.gluck.3 LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-gluck-b32b6898/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jbgluck/

Guest Hunter Seim is a thirty-year veteran of the Bureau of Land Management. His current role is a range and wild horse advisor to the District Manager of the Northwest District, Colorado BLM. During his career, he worked as a land survey technician and an outdoor recreation planner specializing in wilderness management in Palm Springs, California, and as a rangeland management specialist and an assistant field manager in Craig, Colorado. His duties have given him exposure to almost every aspect of managing public lands. I received a Bachelor of Science in Range Management from Texas Tech University in 1992. Range management and rangeland ecology are my primary background and where the bulk of my career and professional interests lie. Summary Hunter Seim brings three decades of experience from the Bureau of Land Management to this conversation about managing America's public lands. With a background in range management and ecology, Hunter explains how the BLM oversees 245 million acres across the western states, balancing diverse and often conflicting interests—from wilderness preservation to resource extraction, livestock grazing, and wildlife habitat protection. The discussion reveals the BLM's unique challenge: its mission is so broad that "somebody's always going to be disappointed." Hunter describes managing everything from wilderness boundaries in California to oil and gas reclamation in Colorado, emphasizing that collaboration is essential to success. Rather than dictating policy, the BLM works as a neighbor to thousands of private landowners, state agencies, and various other stakeholders. Particularly fascinating is Hunter's work with outcome-based grazing, which demonstrates how properly managed livestock grazing can coexist with—and even benefit—sensitive habitats, such as sage grouse environments. The wild horse program presents one of the agency's most emotionally charged challenges, as the BLM attempts to balance animal welfare with ecosystem health while facing intense public scrutiny amplified by social media. From fire management to water rights, mineral extraction to animal crossings, the BLM operates at the intersection of conservation and commerce. Hunter emphasizes that these public lands benefit all Americans, whether they ever visit them or not—from the resources they provide to the simple knowledge that vast, undeveloped wilderness still exists. His recommended reading, Wallace Stegner's "Beyond the 100th Meridian," captures the essential challenge of managing the arid West. The Essential Point The most critical insight is that successful public lands management requires constant collaboration and a balancing act between competing interests. The BLM cannot simply dictate policy—it must work as a neighbor with thousands of stakeholders, from ranchers to environmentalists, state agencies to private landowners. This collaborative approach, exemplified by outcome-based grazing initiatives that benefit both livestock operators and wildlife habitat, demonstrates that conservation and commerce need not be mutually exclusive. Social Media & Referenced Bureau of Land Management Beyond the 100th Meridian

Guest Spencer Seim owns and operates ZiaFly guide service in Taos, NM. He's been tying flies since age eight and just finished his 23rd season guiding the southern Rockies. Spencer is well known for his classic Atlantic salmon flies, as well as his own patterns for fishing the Taos area. Spencer lives with his wife, Sophia, daughter Olivia, and son Ivo. From hopping freight trains, bouncing throughout the Rockies looking for fish, to tying flies, making hooks, and dyeing feathers, Spencer is always eager to share his hard-earned knowledge with others. Spencer's work has been featured in America's Favorite Flies, The Drake magazine, Smithsonian magazine, and The Feather Thief. In addition to Getting Unstuck, he has been a guest on numerous podcasts, including Destination Angler, Wet Fly Swing, Getting Unstuck, Ask About Fly Fishing, and This American Life. Summary In this riverside conversation, fly-fishing guide Spencer Seim reflects on how his lifelong passion for fly fishing has shaped his identity, philosophy, and environmental ethics. From his early fascination with anglers in the southern Rockies to his work guiding others on Colorado and New Mexico rivers, Spencer sees fly fishing not just as a sport but as a spiritual and meditative practice—a way to connect deeply with nature and oneself. He describes the river as "a living thing" and "the ultimate connection to nature," teaching humility, adaptability, and respect. Each day on the water is a dialogue between person and place, one that demands observation and openness rather than mastery or control. Spencer explains that true success on the river—and in life—comes from learning through failure, adapting to changing conditions, and maintaining realistic expectations. The "frontier of the mind," as he calls it, is the mental space where curiosity and growth thrive, often nurtured by time spent in solitude outdoors. As a parent, he uses these same lessons to teach his daughter resilience, kindness, courage, and the value of learning from mistakes. He also extends his stewardship ethic to conservation, recounting a story of helping prevent gas drilling in the Valle Vidal wilderness and emphasizing that "Mother Nature is not a resource, she's the source." Ultimately, Spencer frames both fly fishing and life as opportunities for "quiet lessons"—moments of discovery, humility, and connection that flow like the river itself. The Key Takeaway Spencer's central insight is that fly fishing mirrors life: success comes through humility, awareness, and adaptation. The river teaches us to listen to nature, to others, and to our own inner dialogue. Social Media https://www.ziafly.com/spencer-seim

Guest Dr. Karen Sobel-Lojeski is a pioneer in understanding how technology shapes human connection at work and beyond. She created the award-winning framework, Virtual Distance, a proven and practical set of predictive analytics that target problems and predictably strengthen trust, collaboration, and productivity across remote, hybrid, and in-person teams. As the founder of Virtual Distance International, she has advised Fortune 500 companies, government agencies, and institutions, including Coca-Cola, the US Navy, DARPA, and the World Economic Forum. A trusted advisor, former professor and researcher with affiliations at Princeton's Institute for Advanced Study, Wharton, and the Stockholm School of Economics, she is the author of Uniting the Virtual Workforce, Leading the Virtual Workforce, and The Power of Virtual Distance. Her insights have been featured in Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, Forbes, The Wall Street Journal, NPR, and other prominent publications. She is a sought-after speaker, known for energizing audiences worldwide. She holds degrees in Computer Science and Applied Mathematics from SUNY Albany and a Ph.D. from Stevens Institute of Technology, where her dissertation, Virtual Distance: A New Model for the Study of Virtual Work, won the Best Dissertation of the Year Award. Summary In this follow-up conversation, Dr. Karen Sobel-Lojeski—creator of the concept of "virtual distance"—discusses how technology continues to shape, and often erode, human connection, particularly in education. She defines virtual distance as the measurable sense of separation people feel despite being physically close, a phenomenon driven by technology-mediated communication. The model comprises three layers: physical distance, which has the least impact on outcomes; operational distance, representing the day-to-day barriers to smooth communication; and affinity distance, the emotional and relational disconnect that most strongly undermines trust, learning, and collaboration. Dr. K and Jeff revisit ideas they first discussed during the COVID-19 pandemic, when schools shifted to remote learning. While educators solved many operational challenges, they largely ignored the emotional and social costs—students' inability to connect, play, and learn together. Dr. K likens this to Isaac Asimov's story "The Fun They Had," a cautionary tale about robotic education devoid of joy and connection. The discussion shifts to current policies that restrict cell phone use in schools. Dr. K argues these measures, while well-intentioned, misidentify the real problem. Locking up phones doesn't undo decades of cultural conditioning around technology. Students' sense of self and connection has already been rewired; removing the device without addressing underlying social and emotional needs merely produces deprivation, not engagement. She urges educators to prioritize relationships, empathy, and social learning—what she calls "reconnecting to our direct experience of being human." AI, she warns, intensifies virtual distance by outsourcing creativity and meaning-making. Ultimately, she calls for a cultural and educational rebalancing that centers human connection in an increasingly digital world. The Essential Point Technological fixes—whether online learning, AI, or banning cell phones—cannot mend what they helped fray: our capacity for human connection. True learning and creativity depend on empathy, direct experience, and social bonds. Social Media klojeski@virtualdistance.com www.thepowerofvirtualdistance.com www.virtualdistance.com +1.551.580.6422

Guest Jodi Scott is a purpose-driven business leader and entrepreneur passionate about bridging the gap between natural wellness and modern innovation. As the co-founder of Green Goo, she's helped pioneer plant-based alternatives in categories traditionally dominated by synthetics, from first aid to personal care. With a background in science, sales, and sustainability, Jodi brings a fresh perspective to how businesses can grow with integrity, lead with empathy, and stay true to their mission even in fast-changing industries. Summary In this episode, Jeff speaks with Jodi Scott, co-founder of Green Goo, a family-run company that produces plant-based first-aid and wellness products. The conversation traces Green Goo's origins from her sister's early herbalism experiments to a thriving business built around natural healing and sustainability. Jodi shares how her family's blend of skills—her sister's herbology, her mother's tech entrepreneurship, and her own background in health psychology—converged to create a purpose-driven company focused on high-efficacy, natural alternatives to chemical-laden over-the-counter products. She explains the rigorous process behind Green Goo's product formulation, including the FDA's growing recognition of botanical ingredients and the company's commitment to transparent labeling. Beyond product development, Jodi highlights the deeper values that guide the company: spreading goodness, supporting community, and cultivating trust among consumers skeptical of plant-based efficacy. The heart of the conversation comes when Jodi recounts selling the company to a seemingly aligned partner—only to watch it collapse after the buyer's scandal. Forced to lay off her family and staff, she describes the emotional devastation and eventual resilience that followed as they fought to buy the company back. That experience reshaped her understanding of resilience—not as relentless grit, but as the ability to pause, get present, and move forward with clarity. Now, with Green Goo reborn and expanded into a broader wellness portfolio, Jodi continues to advocate for purpose-driven leadership and mindful living, encouraging others to "keep showing up" even when the path is uncertain. The Essential Point Jodi's essential message is that resilience isn't about endless drive—it's about presence, reflection, and finding purpose even amid loss. Her journey with Green Goo shows how values and mindfulness can sustain both people and businesses through profound challenges. Social Media www.greengoo.com | www.southernbutter.com | www.ovamoon.com | www.fambotanicals.com

Guest Dennis and Ali Pitocco lead 360° Nation, a global media platform dedicated to uplifting humanity. For over 15 years, the couple has focused on showcasing humanity's best aspects and driving positive change. Their philosophy emphasizes presence, belonging, and compassionate service, allocating resources for the greater good. They believe in the power of media to benefit society, employing a purpose-driven "for good" vs. for-profit business model that highlights the human potential for creativity, compassion, and collaboration. Summary In this episode, Dennis and Ali reflect on their 500-mile walk along the Camino de Santiago, a six-week pilgrimage through northern Spain that became one of the most profound experiences of their lives. Initially drawn to the Camino less for its religious tradition than for its potential as a reflective journey, the couple sought quiet, connection, and space away from the noise of everyday life. Along the way, they discovered what they call a “symphony of silence”—a meditative calm in which layers of distraction and obligation fell away, revealing a more profound sense of self and purpose. Dennis describes how walking each day with nothing but their thoughts and nature’s rhythms stripped away life’s “varnish,” exposing what truly matters: authenticity, relationships, and wonder. Upon returning home, he and Ali found themselves changed. Dennis reached out to each of his siblings, determined to cultivate genuine, not transactional, relationships—an impulse he attributes directly to the Camino. They also wrote the book we occasionally dip into during this episode to record for themselves and inspire others to approach the Camino as a journey of introspection rather than endurance. The conversation touches on lessons about slowing down, embracing simplicity, and rekindling awe in the everyday. For Dennis, the Camino became a metaphor for life—an act of “unbecoming” all that is false so one can return to one’s most authentic self. As he puts it, “Pain is temporary, but the accomplishment of doing it lives with you forever.” The Essential Point The Camino taught Dennis that transformation often comes through subtraction—not adding more, but shedding distractions and illusions to rediscover authenticity, connection, and the quiet beauty of being fully present. Social Media LINKTREE

Guest Christopher Schaberg, PhD., is the Director of Public Scholarship at Washington University in St. Louis, as well as a founding editor of Object Lessons, a book series on the secret lives of ordinary things. Chris is the author of ten books, including one really good one on fly-fishing. Summary In this wide-ranging conversation, Chris reflects on curiosity, confusion, and the value of paying attention to small things. He begins by adapting Norman Maclean’s line from A River Runs Through It—“Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.” by suggesting that “confusion” or “mystery” runs through his own life and work—a reminder that lingering in uncertainty can be a fertile state for creativity and learning. Chris also discusses his fascination with airports, where he once worked, and how those complex spaces became both a professional subject and metaphor for human experience. He also explores his “Object Lessons” book series, which celebrates the hidden lives of ordinary things, and his broader intellectual project of focusing on the small, the local, and the limited—an intentional counterbalance to a culture obsessed with scale, speed, and expansion. This theme carries through his writing on fly fishing, Adventure: An Argument for Limits, and Little Data, all of which urge closer attention to what’s near, tangible, and often overlooked. As director of public scholarship, Chris works to help academics communicate their research clearly and meaningfully to general audiences, fostering what he sees as a moral imperative for universities: to re-engage with the public in accessible, authentic ways. He and I also reflect on teaching, the challenges of student preparation, and the evolving role of curiosity in an AI-driven age. Chris closes by describing fly fishing not as an escape but as a way to recenter attention and rediscover connection—with nature, with others, and with himself. The Essential Point Chris’s essential insight is that confusion and uncertainty are not obstacles but opportunities—spaces where curiosity deepens, learning expands, and meaningful connections between art, scholarship, and everyday life emerge. “The best essays leave you more puzzled about a topic in a constructive way. It’s okay to be confused—linger there.” Social Media https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-schaberg-812923282/

Guest Lyle Kirtman has been a leadership development consultant for more than 30 years. As CEO, of Future Management Systems Inc., he has worked on developing leaders to increase results for students in 500 school districts in 15 states. Kirtman’s focus on innovation in education is a key element of his presentations, keynotes, and publications. His field-based research has already made major contributions to the educational leadership arena through his “7 Competencies for High Performing Leaders,” the use of leadership assessments for self-reflection and hiring, and the importance of getting a “C” in compliance to increase focus on results for student achievement. He is the author and co-author of numerous books, including Leadership and Teams: The Missing Piece of the Educational Reform Puzzle and Shaping the Future: Four Leadership Pivots for Lasting Educational Impact, which we discuss in this episode. Lyle earned a bachelor’s degree in psychology from the State University of New York (SUNY) and a master’s degree in counseling with a concentration in career development from SUNY and Fairfield University, Connecticut. Why This Episode Matters Lyle Kirtman's new book, Shaping the Future for Leadership Pivots for Lasting Educational Impact, aims to help educational leaders cultivate a positive results culture through four essential pivots. Identify a clear North Star that defines student success. Develop a new approach for hiring, developing, and retaining all staff (shifting from instructional leader to talent leader). Implement a system where employees self-assess their progress toward enabling student success. Establish and commit to high expectations for all students and staff. Kirtman argues that educational leaders lack a 21st-century "North Star" for student success, which is often narrowly defined by high-stakes test scores. He redefines "results" as the essential skills and competencies students need to be successful in life, beyond just academics. These include skills like critical thinking, resilience, and adaptability. Social Media www.futuremsi.com Twitter (X): @FutureManageme3

Guest When I sat down with Brew Moscarello, founder of Trico Unlimited, a Vermont-based fly fishing guiding and instruction service, it was clear that his story is about more than guiding—it’s about a lifelong relationship with the outdoors. Drawn to Vermont by both snowboarding and fly fishing, Brew found himself immersed in the mountains and rivers that continue to inspire him today. His journey eventually led him into the Orvis organization, where he has turned his passion for the water into a vocation—while still maintaining a deep connection to the slopes. Summary Brew’s approach goes beyond technical instruction—he emphasizes presence, patience, and the Zen-like qualities of being on the river. For Brew, guiding is as much about teaching and creating memorable experiences as it is about catching fish. He differentiates himself by leveraging his decades of experience on the Battenkill River, his deep ties to landowners and the community, and a strong instructional style tailored to each client’s needs. Conservation and education are central to his mission, from working with the Battenkill Watershed Alliance to coaching a new high school fly-fishing club. Ultimately, Brew sees fly fishing as a way to connect people with nature, themselves, and each other, creating moments of joy, focus, and gratitude that extend far beyond the catch. The Key Takeaway Brew’s fly fishing and guiding practice is less about catching fish and more about cultivating presence, patience, and connection with nature and others. Developing respect for the sport, the environment, and education is at the heart of what he does. Social Media Trico Unlimited, 4022 VT-313, Arlington, VT 05250 Brew Moscarello brew@tricounlimited.com (802) 379-2005

Guest Sam Sochet is a retired high school principal who currently works as an educational mentor, coach, consultant, and community speaker. He has been a member of the Syosset, NY, Library Board of Trustees since 2020 and currently serves as its Vice President. Sam taught and led schools for over 3 decades, which culminated in his work at Martin Van Buren High School, transforming it from a school on the brink of NY State Receivership and closure, to a thriving destination school for families in Eastern Queens. Sam’s ability to utilize data analysis and community and civic involvement nearly doubled the graduation rate. As a result, Sam was named New York City High School Principal of the Year in 2019. Sam is currently running for the position of Oyster Bay, NY, Town Supervisor. Summary Sam Sochet shares lessons from transforming a struggling school, highlighting the significance of community, empowering teachers, and preparing students for flexible futures—while reflecting on the changing purpose of education and his new role in public service. The takeaway We must reimagine K–12 education, starting at the local community level, so that schooling goes beyond the traditional acquisition of content and test scores, focusing instead on preparing adaptable, collaborative, critical thinkers who can thrive in an uncertain future. Social Media LinkedIn