Learning How to See with Brian McLaren

Today Brian and Carmen address your questions including a deeper dive into Carmen's translation of Corinthians 13, what we mean when talk about love, and tips for knowing when to leave. Resources: Find the transcript for this episode here.

What do we do when life unravels in painful ways — like navigating an unexpected divorce? On today's episode of Learning How to See, Carmen and Brian are joined by New York Times Bestselling author Jen Hatmaker. With great humor and authenticity, Jen takes us through the vulnerable experience of sharing her story, the transformation she went through after loss, and the spiritual power of starting over. Jen reflects on themes from her new memoir Awake,⁠ and shares how her divorce helped her trust her inner knowing, become more fully embodied, and rebuild a life rooted in integrity rather than expectation. Tune in to discover how community and self-compassion can guide us through seasons of upheaval — and how choosing honesty can become its own form of liberation. Resources: Pick up a copy of Jen's latest book, Awake, here. Learn more about Jen here. Find the transcript for today's episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How can we see others, and ourselves, with love when anger, fear, depression, or division clouds our vision? Today's episode of Learning How to See features an interview with Quaker elder Parker J. Palmer. Parker helps us explore how love can become a way of seeing, how we can navigate times of depression, and why listening to each other’s life stories may be our best antidote to polarization. Join us as Parker reflects on encounters that reshaped his assumptions about “the other,” sharing insights from decades of Quaker practice. Resources: Subscribe to Parker's Substack here. Learn more about the Center for Renewal and Courage here. Follow Parker on Facebook here. Find the transcript for this episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How can we de-Westernize spirituality and honor our full humanity within systems that often diminish it? On this episode of Learning How to See, Dr. Cindy Lee, a spiritual director and author, joins hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher for a conversation on de-Westernizing spirituality and holding space for the lived experience of others. Cindy shares how her work with BIPOC communities revealed the limits of Westernized spiritual formation, and how confronting the “Western missionary gaze” can open us to seeing our cultures — and ourselves — with dignity rather than judgment. Resources: Discover more about Cindy Lee ⁠⁠here.⁠ Read Howard Thurman's "The Sound of the Genuine" here. Find the transcript of this episode⁠ ⁠here.⁠⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

How do we soften our hearts to those whose values are in stark contrast to our own? Can we safely love those who have even gone so far as to harm us? On this episode of Learning How to See, Dr. Cassidy Hall, author of Queering Contemplation, poses these tough questions to our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher. Together, they explore how we can respond with integrity when our deepest values are met with opposition. Through personal stories, Brian and Carmen model ways in which they’ve grappled with loving in the face of persecution, strained family dynamics, and systemic incongruities with their own values. Resources: Discover more about Dr. Cassidy Hall ⁠here. Find the transcript of this episode⁠ here.⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

How can we open ourselves to being hosts in the world? On this episode of Learning How To See, we hear from social entrepreneur Becca Stevens, founder of Thistle Farms, a nonprofit which provides sanctuary, employment, and hope for women survivors of trafficking, exploitation, and addiction. Becca invites us to see holiness in unlikely places — just like the thistle growing through cracks in the pavement. In the ninth season of Learning How To See, we continue to learn how to see through the eyes of love. Our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher reflect on what it means to stay present when love feels complicated. We hope you enjoy this episode. Resources: Find out more about Becca here. Find out more about Thistle Farms here. Pick up a copy of Becca's book, Snake Oil , here. Find the transcript of this episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

It can feel easy to offer compassion to others. But, why is it so hard to extend that same tenderness to ourselves? In Season 9 of Learning How To See, we continue to learn how to see through the eyes of love. On this season premiere, author and storyteller Kaitlin Curtice joins our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher to explore Indigenous wisdom, the Potawatomi language, and daily rituals of gratitude. Resources: Learn more about Kaitlin Curtice here. Pick up a copy of Kaitlin's latest book, Everything is a Story, here. Join Kaitlin's Substack, The Liminality Journal, here. The transcript for this episode can be found here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

On our ninth season of Learning How to See, Brian McLaren and guest co-host, Carmen Acevedo Butcher, continue to explore seeing through eyes of love. Through openhearted conversation, podcast guests share experiences in which their lens of love became more finely tuned. We also share embodied practices to help you expand your own capacity to see and act through love, especially during uncertain and turbulent times.

What if love could guide you through anger, injustice, and even the darkest memories? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher reflect on how love, honesty, and contemplative practice can transform even deep wounds. They also respond to a listener’s question: how do we love those who cause harm—especially in politics? Brian and Carmen explore the tension between righteous anger and loving action, offering spiritual insights, personal stories, and practices that help us see with the eyes of love.

What would change if you could see with eyes of love—even in the face of cruelty, fear, and disagreement? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher sit down with renowned spiritual leader, legal advocate, and activist Sister Simone Campbell for a deeply honest conversation about love, justice, and compassion. They explore how contemplative practice grounds fierce activism, why listening is an act of love, and what it means to see even your political opponents with empathy. From her role in passing the Affordable Care Act to launching the "Nuns on the Bus" movement, Sister Simone shares moving stories of courage, community, and the Spirit’s surprising guidance—inviting us all into a new way of seeing and being. Resources: You can find a transcript for this episode here. Find Sr Simone Campbell's book Hunger for Hope here.

What would change if you believed that active, creative non-violence was the deepest expression of love? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher welcome legendary peace activist, Catholic priest, and author Fr. John Dear for an unflinching conversation about the cost—and the healing power—of universal non-violence. Together they explore how language shapes our discipleship, what it feels like to be seen with unconditional love, and why “live and stop the killing” may be the clearest way to describe love in action. Resources: Find out more about Fr. John Dear here. Find out more The Beatitudes Center for the Nonviolent Jesus: here. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How might your life change if you paused more often to unlearn what fear has taught you? In this episode, hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher are joined by Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III. Together, they explore what it means to live with vision in times of struggle—when the path is unclear, but the call to truth and love remains strong. Drawing from his book Dancing in the Darkness, Dr. Moss reflects on the experience of being Black and faithful in America, and how reclaiming the radical tradition of love—rooted in justice and courage—can liberate both the oppressed and the oppressor. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be ⁠found here⁠.

How do ordinary moments become portals to the sacred? On this episode of Learning How to See, Carrie Newcomer joins Brian and Carmen for a conversation-and-concert that explores “short-form empathy,” the contemplative power of music, and the everyday practice of seeing, and being seen, through eyes of love. Along the way Carrie performs two beloved songs, sharing the stories that shaped them, and Carmen invites listeners into a simple chant that can travel with us on morning walks or difficult days. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Listen to the song Start With a Stone inspired by CAC’s Daily Meditations and co-written with the legendary John McCutcheon ⁠here⁠ Find the song I Do Not Know It's Name here Find the song It's Always Love here To learn more about Carry Newcomer and her work, check out her website here. To learn more about Carmen Acevedo Butcher, check our her website here. To learn more about Brian McLaren, check out his website here.

What happens to your own humanity when you choose to truly see the humanity in others? In this episode, Jesuit priest Father Rafael Garcia joins Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher to explore what it means to see through eyes of love—especially in a world that often teaches us to view immigrants, the incarcerated, and the marginalized with fear or indifference. Drawing from his work at the U.S.–Mexico border, his Cuban refugee roots, and stories of deep pastoral presence, Father Rafael shares how radical hospitality transforms both giver and receiver. Carmen reflects on her own awakening to shared humanity while serving in a women’s prison, paralleling Rafael’s shift from architectural comfort to spiritual solidarity. Together, they illuminate how true vision—grounded in Jesuit and Franciscan compassion—invites us not into pity, but into kinship and mutual transformation. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here.

What would change if you believed that grace was at the center of your life? In this episode, Brian and Carmen are joined by longtime friend and public theologian Nadia Bolz-Weber for a conversation about the radical, healing power of grace—and how it reshapes our vision of ourselves, others, and the divine. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. For information about Nadia, visit her website here.

In this opening to Season 8, Learning How to See returns with understanding how to see with the eyes of love. On this season, Brian McLaren introduces his new co-host Dr. Carmen Acevedo Butcher—a scholar, translator, contemplative teacher, and birdwatching chocolate lover—and together, they launch the theme for this season: Seeing Through Eyes of Love. This episode weaves together personal storytelling, embodied spiritual practice, and reflection to explore how love can transform the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world. Your Practice for the Week: Once a day, notice something you’re seeing with judgment or indifference. Pause. Shift your gaze to see it with the eyes of love. Then try to “telescope out”: See yourself seeing with love. See others doing the same. Envision Divine Love witnessing it all. Resources & Mentions: The transcript for this episode can be found here. In this episode, Carmen referenced the following: Dorothee Sölle – Death by Bread Alone Howard Thurman – Mysticism and the Experience of Love Brother Lawrence – The Practice of the Presence of God Meister Eckhart – on the “eye within me” Brian referenced the following: Richard Rohr’s Cosmic Egg – a framework of nested stories: My Story, Our Story, The Story (This is located in his book, The Wisdom Pattern.) 1 Corinthians 13 – closing reading on the nature of love

Can we cultivate a relationship with the natural world which mirrors the care and concern we would offer a dear friend? How do you foster hope in the midst of an unruly world? In this conversation, Brian McLaren is prompted by CAC Staff members Corey Wayne and Mike Petrow, to reflect on his journey from pastor to writer and public speaker. Brian discusses the interconnectedness of nature and spirituality, the need for respect and boundaries in our relationship with the natural world, and the urgency of advocating for environmental issues in light of current political and ecological challenges. The three discuss the historical context of the Desert Fathers and Mothers, the inescapability of our current crises, and the various responses individuals have to these challenges (fight, flight, freeze, flock). They explore the importance of community and connection in times of despair, emphasizing the role of love and nature in cultivating hope and resilience. The discussion leaves us asking how we can be better friends to the earth and to each other amidst the complexities of modern life. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Brian's book, Life After Doom is referenced in this episode. Connect with us: Email us: podcasts@cac.org Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail

How important is community in facing the climate crisis? What kinds of communities are helping you to live differently and find hope? In this episode, we’re learning to see nature through the eyes of a visionary. For this conversation, Brian McLaren is joined by Philip Clayton to discuss the urgent need for a shift in mindset, the transformative power of community, and the vital role of faith in building an ecological civilization. About the guest: Philip Clayton is a renowned scholar whose work spans philosophy, theology, and science, with a particular focus on ecotheology, exploring the intersection of climate science, ethics, religion, and social philosophy. Holding the Ingraham Chair at Claremont School of Theology and directing the PhD program in comparative theologies and philosophies, he has also taught at prestigious institutions like Yale, Williams College, and Harvard, publishing extensively with over two dozen books and 350 articles. Beyond academia, Clayton is the President of the Institute for Ecological Civilization (EcoCiv.org), working internationally to promote sustainable solutions, and also heads the Institute for the Postmodern Development of China, advocating for ecological civilization through various initiatives. When not immersed in scholarly pursuits, he enjoys cycling, refereeing soccer, and spending time outdoors with his family and dog. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Two of Brian's books have been referenced heavily this season. You can check them out at the following links, Life After Doom and The Galapagos Islands. To learn more about Philip, check out his website here. Find out more about musician April Stace here. Books mentioned during the interview: What is Ecological Civilization? by Philip Clayton and Andrew Schwartz The New Possible: Visions of Our World Beyond Crisis (Edited by Philip Clayton) Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson Eaarth by Bill McKibben Connect with us: Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general? Email us: podcasts@cac.org Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024.

How can you apply Indigenous values like harmony, respect, and accountability to your own life and community? In this episode, we’re learning to see nature through the eyes of an Indigenous Person. For this conversation, Brian McLaren is joined by Randy and Edith Woodley to discuss the importance of rediscovering Indigenous values to create a more harmonious relationship with the Earth and all its inhabitants. Randy and Edith Woodley recently released their book, Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Lead Us to Harmony and Well-Being. About the guests: Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley is an activist, scholar, author, teacher, wisdom-keeper, and Cherokee descendant recognized by the Keetoowah Band who speaks on justice, faith, the earth, and Indigenous realities. He is the author of numerous books, including Becoming Rooted and Shalom and the Community of Creation. He and his wife, Edith, co-sustain Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice and Eloheh Farm & Seeds outside Portland, Oregon. Edith Woodley is the cofounder and co-sustainer of Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice and Eloheh Farm & Seeds. She was raised on the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming and is a member of the Eastern Shoshone tribe. Woodley has a degree from Bacone College and mentors others in the spirituality of the land, farming methods, and seed-keeping. She is a leader in the Decolonizing with Badass Indigenous Grandmas cohort. She and her husband, Randy Woodley, have four grown children and six grandchildren. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Becoming Rooted by Randy Woodley was mentioned. You can find that here. Check out Randy and Edith Woodley’s new book, Journey to Eloheh here. Find out more about musician April Stace here. Connect with us: Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general? Email us: podcasts@cac.org Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024.

What might it look like to live out a Franciscan vision of kinship in your daily life? In this episode, we’re learning to see nature through the eyes of a Franciscan. For this conversation, Brian McLaren is joined by Sr. Joan Brown and Michelle Dunne to explore the essence of Franciscan values and their relevance in today's world. They discuss the importance of community and kinship, translating faith into action, and the role of education and rituals in fostering a deeper connection with creation. This conversation underscores the need for collective action in addressing environmental challenges, the transformative power of prayer and contemplation, as well as confronting historical injustices and the call to embrace love and kinship in all aspects of life. About the guests: Michele Dunne OFS is a professed Secular Franciscan. Before coming to FAN, her career focused on the Middle East and U.S. foreign policy. From 2006 until 2021, she headed programs focused on peace, human rights, and democracy in the Middle East at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the Atlantic Council. Before that, she served for nearly 20 years in the U.S. Department of State, including assignments in Jerusalem and Cairo. She holds a Ph.D. from Georgetown University and lives in Washington DC with her husband. Joan Brown is a Franciscan Sister from the Rochester, MN community, living and working in Albuquerque, New Mexico where she serves as the Executive Director of New Mexico Interfaith Power and Light (NM IPL). NM IPL is part of a national faith-based organization working to address climate justice. Originally from a small family farm in Kansas that still operates, her life has always revolved around love of and care for creation and social justice. Her BA from St. Mary College, Leavenworth, KS was in literature and journalism and she holds a master’s degree in Religion Philosophy and Cosmology from the California Institute of Integral Studies. Climate justice work has been a focus for decades and led her to participate with Franciscans International at UN COP meetings including Paris in 2015. She was one of twelve recipients of the 2015 Whitehouse Champions of Change award for faith leaders working on climate change. She has published articles and essays in national and local publications. Gardening, writing, baking (and sharing food), camping, hiking, community life, and contemplating and being with diverse kin in the natural world bring her joy, grounding and beauty. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Brian referenced two of his books, Life After Doom and The Galapagos Islands. Check out the Franciscan Justice Circles here. Check out Sr. Joan’s work with New Mexico Interfaith Power and Light, here. Check out the Franciscan Action Network (FAN) here. Subscribe to the FAN Newsletter here. Subscribe to the FAN Environmental Justice Newsletter here. Find out more about the Doctrine of Discovery here Find out more about musician April Stace here. Connect with us: Have a response to Brian's call to action at the end of this episode, or a question in general? Email us: podcasts@cac.org Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail We'll be accepting questions for our Listener Questions episode until November 20th, 2024.