Conversing with Mark Labberton

Investigative reporter Shoshana Walter has spent a decade uncovering how America's $53 billion rehab industry exploits the people it claims to help. Her debut book, Rehab: An American Scandal, follows four people through a system of unpaid labor, unregulated programs, and treatment that fuels relapse. "Just because people aren't dying doesn't mean they're not still suffering, doesn't mean their families and communities aren't still suffering." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Walter reflects on the human cost of America's failed treatment system. Together they discuss court-ordered rehab as unpaid labor, the deadly paradox of 30-day programs, faith-based facilities exempt from oversight, racial disparities in the opioid crisis, the treatment gap for mothers, and why recovery capital and low-barrier care offer a more promising path. Episode Highlights "If indentured labor could be considered a form of addiction treatment in the U.S. today, then how common is that? What does the rest of our treatment landscape look like?" "Someone who goes to a 30-day program and finishes it is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment than someone who didn't complete that program at all." "Without that recovery capital, it's almost as much of an obstacle as the addiction itself." "Our treatment system is not serving the people the way that it should. And we could be helping people so much more than we actually are." "That exploitation is not transformative." About Shoshana Walter Shoshana Walter is an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project covering criminal justice, healthcare, and child welfare, and the author of Rehab: An American Scandal (Simon & Schuster, 2025). She was lead reporter on the podcast American Rehab at the Center for Investigative Reporting. A 2018 Pulitzer Prize finalist, she has won the IRE Medal, the Livingston Award, the Knight Award for Public Service, and the Murrow Award. Based in Oakland, California. (Sources: The Marshall Project, Simon & Schuster.) Learn more and follow at shoshanawalter.com and @shoeshine on X. Helpful Links and Resources Rehab: An American Scandal (Simon & Schuster, 2025) simonandschuster.com/books/Rehab/Shoshana-Walter/9781982149826 Shoshana Walter's website shoshanawalter.com The Marshall Project themarshallproject.org/staff/shoshana-walter American Rehab podcast podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/reveal-presents-american-rehab/id1539955572 Show Notes #RehabAnAmericanScandal #OpioidCrisis #AddictionTreatment #RecoveryCapital #HarmReduction #InvestigativeJournalism #Suboxone #ShoshanaWalter Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

At fifteen, Martin Luther King Jr. didn't want to be a preacher—he wanted to be a lawyer, a sharp dresser, and nothing like his father. Stanford scholar Lerone A. Martin joins Mark Labberton to discuss Young King—a revelatory new account of Martin Luther King Jr.'s childhood, adolescence, and calling to ministry. "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." In this episode, Martin reflects on how MLK's early formation forged the conviction and courage of the man the world would come to know. Together they discuss King's childhood encounters with racism, the transformative summer in Connecticut where King first preached, his courtship of Coretta Scott, his first sermon at Dexter Avenue, the theology of Personalism, and Martin's own formation in Black Baptist and Pentecostal traditions. Episode Highlights "His mother tells him a message that really sticks with him his entire life and is really core to his ministry. And that is that you are somebody and that you're in God's eyes. You are just as good as anybody else." "I kept my mind at the front of that streetcar, and I said to myself, one day, I'm going to put my body where my mind is." "She says within the first 20 minutes he starts to become handsome because they start talking about dismantling Jim Crow." "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." "God has chosen to work with us and to invite us to be coworkers with God, to bring about God's will in the world." About Lerone A. Martin Lerone A. Martin is the MLK Jr. Centennial Professor in Religious Studies at Stanford and director of the King Research and Education Institute. His books include Young King, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover, and Preaching on Wax. He holds a BA from Anderson University, MDiv from Princeton Seminary, and PhD from Emory. His commentary has appeared on NBC's Today Show, PBS, CNN, and NPR. Helpful Links and Resources Young King by Lerone A. Martin https://www.amazon.com/Young-King-Making-Martin-Luther/dp/0063340941 The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691218939/the-gospel-of-j-edgar-hoover Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu Lerone A. Martin on X https://x.com/DirectorMLK The Luminous Darkness by Howard Thurman https://www.amazon.com/Luminous-Darkness-Anatomy-Segregation/dp/0913408468 Show Notes #YoungKing #MLK #LeroneMartin #KingInstitute #CivilRights #BlackHistory #FaithAndJustice #ConversingPodcast Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What does it cost to pastor faithfully in a city shaped by both beauty and deep injustice? Corey Widmer has spent twenty years navigating race, politics, and the gospel in Richmond, Virginia. "We're living in an extraordinary moral and spiritual crisis that we will either look back and say the American church was an accomplice, or the American church was a prophet." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Widmer reflects on bridging divided communities and the spiritual practices that can sustain pastors as they serve their congregations and communities. Together they discuss pressures facing pastors in a polarized era, the prophet-priest-king calling, Richmond's racial history, pastoral burnout, John Stott's legacy, and the contemplative life. Episode Highlights "We're living in an extraordinary moral and spiritual crisis that we will either look back and say the American church was an accomplice, or the American church was a prophet." "No political party could possibly align with the ethic of the radical upside down kingdom of Jesus." "Bridges are stretched between two points and bear tremendous weight." "At the heart of the universe is not power. At the heart of the universe is communion, is love." "You know when you're really not a prophet is when after you say the hard word, you leave the room and say, I hope they still like me." About Corey Widmer Rev. Corey Widmer is Senior Pastor of Third Church, a Presbyterian congregation in Richmond, VA. Corey has served as a pastor in Richmond for over 20 years, both at Third Church and at East End Fellowship, a multi-racial neighborhood congregation. Corey has an M.Div. from Princeton Theological Seminary and a Ph.D. in Theology and Missiology from the Free University of Amsterdam. He is married to Sarah, a public health nurse, and they have 4 daughters. Helpful Links and Resources Corey Widmer on Substack: https://coreywidmer.substack.com Third Church, Richmond: https://www.thirdrva.org Corey Widmer on X: https://x.com/coreywidmer For Richmond Immigration Statement (full text): https://www.forrichmond.org/recent-news-blog/immigration Richmond Faith Leaders on Immigration (Virginia Public Media): VPM News James Davison Hunter, Democracy and Solidarity (Yale, 2024): https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300284898/democracy-and-solidarity/ David Whyte, Crossing the Unknown Sea: https://davidwhyte.com/store/book/crossing-the-unknown-sea/ Lausanne Covenant: https://lausanne.org/about/the-lausanne-covenant John Perkins, Let Justice Roll Down: https://ccda.org/product/let-justice-roll-down/ Barna, State of Pastors: https://www.barna.com/trends/pastoral-flourishing/ Show Notes "Every pastor in every time has a similar calling—to shepherd the people of God under the supremacy of Jesus's lordship""Bridges are stretched between two points and bear tremendous weight""No political party could possibly align with the radical upside down kingdom of Jesus"Democracy and Solidarity"The American church was an accomplice, or a prophet"David Whyte: "The antidote to exhaustion is wholeheartedness""You're not a prophet when you leave the room and say, I hope they still like me" #PastoralMinistry #ChurchLeadership #RacialReconciliation #ChristianNationalism #PastorBurnout #CruciformLife #RichmondVA #JohnStott #LausanneCovenant Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

We might be living through the most consequential technological moment in human history. In this episode, Greg Cootsona—theologian, pastor, and executive director of AI and Faith—joins Mark Labberton reflect on a lifetime's convergence of work in faith, science, and ethics now fully engaged at the frontier of artificial intelligence. "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning. In that sense, every AI model carries an implicit anthropology and an embedded moral vision." Together they discuss why religious wisdom belongs in the room where AI is shaped, the ethical stakes of human dignity and representation in AI systems, and the strategic power of interfaith collaboration with leading tech companies. Together they also explore how individual users can exercise genuine agency over AI, the risks of AI-mediated relationships, and what it would mean to make AI truly for us—in the deepest theological sense of that phrase. Episode Highlights "You among mortals are chosen to solve every problem effectively and efficiently."—on Silicon Valley's unspoken gospel "The gospel is not fragile and it grows best in situations that are not ideal and conditions that are not ideal." "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning. In that sense, every AI model carries an implicit anthropology and an embedded moral vision. Whether or not its designers name it." "A third of teenagers say they prefer to have a relationship with a chatbot." "I think hope is taking steps today for a vision of tomorrow that you want to see occur. And that is what makes positive change in us as human beings and positive change in the world around us." About Greg Cootsona Greg Cootsona (PhD, Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley) is the executive director of AI and Faith, a global interfaith organization bringing religious wisdom to the ethical challenges of artificial intelligence. He is a lecturer in comparative religion and humanities at California State University, Chico, and an ordained Presbyterian Church (USA) minister. Cootsona co-founded Science for the Church, directed multiple Templeton Foundation–funded projects connecting science and religious communities, and is a recognized specialist in C.S. Lewis, theology, and science. He has authored nine books, including Science and Religions in America: A New Look (Routledge, 2023) and Mere Science and Christian Faith (InterVarsity Press, 2018). He has appeared on The Today Show, CNN, NPR, BBC, and in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. Helpful Links and Resources AI and Faith https://aiandfaith.org Greg Cootsona's website: https://www.gregcootsona.com Forthcoming book, An AI Made for Us: https://www.gregcootsona.com Science for the Church https://scienceforthechurch.org Mere Science and Christian Faith: https://www.ivpress.com/mere-science-and-christian-faith Science and Religions in America: A New Look https://www.routledge.com/Science-and-Religions-in-America-A-New-Look/Cootsona/p/book/9781032102122 AI and Faith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/aiandfaith AI and Faith on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/AIandFaith Show Notes An AI Made for Us #AIandFaith #ArtificialIntelligence #FaithAndTechnology #AIEthics #HumanFlourishing #ScienceAndFaith #ChristianFaith #TechAndReligion #AIandHumanity #GregCootsona Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

David Ford joins Mark Labberton to explore why the Gospel of John still feels inexhaustible—cosmic, intimate, and urgently relevant in a fractured age. Ford has spent over two decades inside this text and finds it as generative as ever. "Any of us can begin this quiet revolution in our own corner of things." Together they reflect on John as a gospel of encounter, trust, and lifelong rereading. Together they discuss the prologue as a frame for all reality, John 17 as midrash on the Lord's Prayer, the theology of greatness, and Christian unity as gift before task. Together they ask how rereading John forms resilient communities of truth, love, and daring friendship. Episode Highlights "You can reread and reread and reread, and the levels go on deepening and deepening that it never comes to an end." "The meeting with God in John is through trusting Jesus." "Every time we read this as we are now, we are in the presence of the one we are talking about." "Unity, this unity is a gift before it's a task." "We are a centered set, not a bounded set. It's not the boundaries that define us, it's the center." About David Ford David F. Ford OBE is Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at Cambridge and a Fellow of Selwyn College. He founded the Cambridge Inter-Faith Programme, co-founded scriptural reasoning, and co-chairs the Rose Castle Foundation. His books include The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary, Theology: A Very Short Introduction, and Meeting God in John. Learn more and follow at https://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/directory/david-ford (Sources: Cambridge Faculty of Divinity; Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton) Helpful Links and Resources Meeting God in John: https://spckpublishing.co.uk/meeting-god-in-john The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary: https://bakeracademic.com/products/9781540964083_the-gospel-of-john Theology: A Very Short Introduction: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/theology-9780199679973 The Five Quintets, Micheal O'Siadhail: https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481307093/the-five-quintets/ Rose Castle Foundation: https://www.rosecastlefoundation.org/home Show Notes #GospelOfJohn #DavidFord #MeetingGodInJohn #ChristianUnity #ScripturalReasoning #John17 #Lent #Theology Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Electricity underwrites nearly every aspect of modern life, yet decisions about power, cost, and control are increasingly opaque. New York Times energy correspondent Ivan Penn joins Mark Labberton to unpack how data centres, AI, utilities, and politics are reshaping the grid—and who ultimately bears the cost. "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Penn reflects on his journey into journalism, his unexpected path into energy reporting, and how covering power revealed the economic forces shaping daily life. Together they discuss electricity as a moral and economic issue, the rise of AI-driven data centres, nuclear power's return, utilities versus tech giants, consumer vulnerability, racial inequity in journalism, and faith as a commitment to truth. –––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid." "Electricity is the most important resource we have." "The utilities once the Goliath have suddenly become a David." "We wouldn't have need for any of this if you didn't build a data centre." "To be able to stop abuse with a pen is a powerful thing." –––––––––––––––– About Ivan Penn Ivan Penn is an energy correspondent for the New York Times, where he reports on electricity, utilities, nuclear power, data centres, and the economic forces shaping the energy transition. He has covered energy and utilities for more than fifteen years and has previously worked at the Los Angeles Times, Tampa Bay Times, Baltimore Sun, and Miami Herald. Penn's reporting has examined nuclear plant failures, grid reliability, climate pressures, and the growing influence of technology companies in energy markets. A longtime journalist shaped by investigative reporting, he is also attentive to issues of equity, public accountability, and consumer protection. Penn is a graduate of the University of Maryland and was the first black editor-in-chief of its student newspaper. He also holds a master's in global leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary and was a John S. Knight Fellow at Stanford University. His work reflects a commitment to accuracy, fairness, and public service journalism. Learn more and follow at nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn –––––––––––––––– Helpful Links and Resources Ivan Penn – New York Times profile https://www.nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn The New York Times – Energy and Environment coverage https://www.nytimes.com/section/climate Three Mile Island nuclear plant background https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners https://www.naruc.org PJM Interconnection electricity market https://www.pjm.com –––––––––––––––– Show Notes –––––––––––––––– #EnergyPolicy #ElectricityGrid #Journalism #FaithAndPublicLife #AIInfrastructure #Utilities #ClimateEconomy –––––––––––––––– Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When public life feels loud and divided, what does quiet faithfulness look like? In the U.S. House of Representatives, every legislative day begins with prayer. This responsibility rests with the Chaplain of the House and shapes the daily spiritual rhythms of the institution. "Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon." On January 3, 2021, Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben was elected by the House to be its 61st Chaplain. She offers daily prayer and steady pastoral presence and care in one of the most visible and contested institutions in American life. In this conversation with Mark Labberton, she reflects on vocation, pastoral identity, pluralism, crisis leadership, prayer in public life, and the quiet discipline of blessing those entrusted with leadership. She reflects on her early call to ministry as a teen, her formation as a military chaplain to the Navy, a defining season in Afghanistan, and her unexpected path to serving in the House. Together they discuss confidential care, advising leaders, the ministry of presence, praying across differences, the history of prayer in Congress, and how to bless leaders without turning prayer into a tool of ideology. Episode Highlights "I had a sense of call to ministry when I was about 14." "Chaplains are where it matters, when it matters, with what matters." "What is your theology of ministry?" "It is the 99 who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd." "God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down." About Margaret Grun Kibben Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben serves as the 61st Chaplain of the United States House of Representatives. Ordained in the Presbyterian Church (USA), she previously completed a 35-year career in the U.S. Navy, including service as the 26th Chief of Navy Chaplains and Director of Religious Ministry for the Department of the Navy. In that role, she advised senior naval leadership and oversaw chaplains serving sailors, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen around the world. She holds degrees from Goucher College and Princeton Theological Seminary and earned a Doctor of Ministry focused on theology and leadership. Her ministry has included deployments overseas and senior-level advisement in complex, pluralistic environments. Helpful Links And Resources Office of the Chaplain, US House of Representatives: https://chaplain.house.gov U.S. House Chaplain YouTube Channel (Daily Prayers before Sessions) https://www.youtube.com/@USHouseChaplain January 6, 2026 Prayer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQLhXt3gWBg Show Notes #MargaretGrunKibben #HouseChaplain #FaithAndLeadership #MinistryOfPresence #MilitaryChaplaincy #Prayer #ChristianVocation #Conversing Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

As we approach Ash Wednesday and the 2026 Lenten season, Mako Fujimura's vision of slow art, hospitality, and kenotic creativity invites us to resist the speed, fear, and fragmentation of this cultural moment by learning again how to pay attention, to rest, and to become people capable of holding one another with care even amid grief, violence, and uncertainty. In this conversation, fine artist Makoto Fujimura reflects on art, trauma, hospitality, and the slow practices that help us remain human in fractured times. "I wanted this book to serve as a portal… to recognize something as maybe ordinary or as extraordinary as holding your granddaughter." Together with Mark Labberton, Fujimura reflects on art as generativity, kenosis, and the healing practice of attention. Together they discuss slow art, Ground Zero and trauma, Japanese aesthetics and hospitality, dandelions and attention, Sabbath rest, and self-emptying love. They explore how making art helps people remain human amid violence, polarization, and technological acceleration. Episode Highlights "I wanted this book to serve as a portal… to recognize something as maybe ordinary or as extraordinary as holding your granddaughter." "We are not just making… we are being made." "God is indeed the host." "Art is… a way for us to navigate our complex times." "It is okay for me to give my life away." About Mako Fujimura Mako Fujimura is a contemporary artist, writer, and cultural thinker known for "slow art" rooted in Japanese Nihonga painting traditions. His work explores generativity, culture care, theology of making, and the relationship between beauty and suffering. Having lived and worked near Ground Zero after 9/11, his artistic practice reflects themes of trauma, hospitality, and new creation. He is the author of Art Is: A Journey into the Light and other books on art, faith, and culture. Helpful Links And Resources Art Is: A Journey into the Light https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300273656/art-is/ Makoto Fujimura Website https://makotofujimura.com/art International Arts Movement https://iamculturecare.com/ Art and Faith: A Theology of Making https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300285482/art-and-faith/ Show Notes #MakoFujimura #SlowArt #CultureCare #FaithAndArt #Hospitality #Kenosis #CreativeProcess #SpiritualFormation Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Singer-songwriter Jon Guerra joins Mark Labberton to explore devotional songwriting, public faith, and the tension between the kingdom of Jesus and American cultural power. Through music and reflection, Guerra considers how art can hold grief, courage, and hope together in turbulent times. "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Guerra reflects on songwriting as prayer, the call to love enemies, and artistic courage in moments of cultural crisis. Together they discuss devotional music, George Herbert's influence, the Beatitudes and American culture, citizenship and immigration imagery, increasing polarization, suffering and grace, and the vocation of Christian artists. Episode Highlights "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one." "When Jesus says to love your enemies… he is giving us a means of survival." "This is not sentimentality… the only way to resist becoming what one hates." "My songwriting… would be a means of coming into contact with the invisible God." "Beauty puts us in contact with invisible things." About Jon Guerra Jon Guerra is a singer-songwriter based in Austin, Texas, known for devotional music that blends poetry, theology, and contemporary cultural reflection. His albums include Little Songs (2015), Keeper of Days (2020), Ordinary Ways (2023), and American Gospel. Guerra has also composed music for film, including Terrence Malick's A Hidden Life (2019). The son of immigrants from Cuba and Argentina, his work often explores themes of citizenship, prayer, justice, and the teachings of Jesus. His songwriting draws inspiration from figures like George Herbert and Howard Thurman, and seeks to connect spiritual devotion with public life. Helpful Links and Resources Jon Guerra website: https://www.jonguerramusic.com/ American Gospel album: https://jonguerra.bandcamp.com A Hidden Life film: https://www.searchlightpictures.com/ahiddenlife Jesus and the Disinherited by Howard Thurman: https://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx The Porter's Gate: https://www.portersgateworship.com/ Show Notes Hashtags #JonGuerra #DevotionalMusic #LoveYourEnemies #ChristianArt #AmericanGospel #PublicFaith #Jesus #Gospel #SpiritualFormation Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When federal agents kill civilians and public outrage sweeps the nation, who gets to define justified force and who gets to hold power accountable? The killings of Renée Good and Alex Pretti have sparked protests, national shutdowns, and fresh debate about what security should look like in America. Elizabeth Neumann, former assistant secretary for counterterrorism at the US Department of Homeland Security, joins Mark Labberton for a wide-ranging conversation about fear-based governance, moral responsibility, constitutional guardrails, and what faithful leadership looks like in a moment of political crisis. "Cruelty is a deterrent." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Neumann reflects on how Christian faith and public service shaped her national security career and why recent forceful immigration enforcement and lethal encounters challenge constitutional limits and moral clarity. Together they discuss the moral and political meaning of the Minneapolis killings, trauma and vocation, immigration enforcement and democratic consent, fear-driven leadership, and how citizens and faith communities respond when institutions break down. Episode Highlights "Cruelty is a deterrent." "I realized how much my hope and trust had been in man." "We wrapped the flag around the cross." "We see sufficiently, but not transparently." "This is not normal, and this is not okay." About Elizabeth Neumann Elizabeth Neumann is a national security expert and former assistant secretary for counterterrorism at the US Department of Homeland Security. She served across three presidential administrations, including senior roles during the George W. Bush and Trump administrations, and worked extensively on counterterrorism, prevention of political violence, and domestic extremism. A frequent public commentator and congressional witness, Neumann has become a leading voice on the moral and constitutional dangers of fear-driven governance. Her work bridges public policy, trauma studies, and Christian ethics, particularly where political power collides with faith commitments. She is the author of Kingdom of Rage, a deeply personal and analytical account of extremism, nationalism, and the cost of unexamined allegiance. Helpful Links and Resources Kingdom of Rage: The Rise of Christian Extremism and the Path Back to Peace https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Rage-Christian-Extremism-Peace/dp/1546002057 Show Notes #ElizabethNeumann #FaithAndPolitics #NationalSecurity #ImmigrationCrisis #MoralCourage #PublicFaith Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Church planting is thriving at the very moment the church faces a crisis of credibility. What if the problem isn't too few churches—but too narrow a vision of what church is for? In this episode with Mark Labberton, Brad Brisco reflects on church planting shaped by Christology before strategy, mission before institution, and incarnation before programs. Together they discuss missionary imagination in the modern West, co-vocational ministry, alternative expressions of church, micro-church networks, church growth assumptions, vocation and work, justice and proximity, and what it means to return—daily—to the ways of Jesus. –––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights "We need to help church planters think less like pastors starting a Sunday service and more like missionaries engaging a unique context." "If by church we mean buildings, then no—we don't need more of those." "Mission isn't really ours. It's about what God's already doing." "We can say we're gospel-centered and still miss the ways of Jesus." "The only way the church gets this far off is by being void of the ways of Jesus." –––––––––––––––– About Brad Brisco Brad Brisco is a missiologist and church planting leader, trainer, and writer who has spent more than twenty-five years coaching and resourcing church planters across North America. After beginning his career in the restaurant industry, Brisco entered ministry through church planting and later joined Send Network, where his work has focused on alternative expressions of church, co-vocational leadership, and missionally engaged discipleship. He also serves on the national leadership team for Forge America Mission Training Network. Brad is the co-author of "Missional Essentials," a 12-week small group study guide, "The Missional Quest: Becoming a Church of the Long Run" and "Next Door As It Is In Heaven." He is widely known for challenging church growth assumptions and for advocating Christ-centered, incarnational approaches that integrate faith, work, and neighborhood life. Brisco remains closely connected to decentralized microchurch networks and innovative models of mission in urban contexts. Follow him on X: https://x.com/bradleybrisco –––––––––––––––– Helpful Links and Resources Missional Church Network https://www.missionalchurchnetwork.com/ Send Network https://sendnetwork.com The Shaping of Things to Come – Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost https://www.amazon.com/Shaping-Things-Come-Innovation-Mission/dp/1565636597 Permanent Revolution – Alan Hirsch https://www.amazon.com/Permanent-Revolution-Apostolic-Imagination-Practice/dp/0470907746 Tampa Underground https://www.tampaunderground.com/ –––––––––––––––– Show Notes –––––––––––––––– #ChurchPlanting #MissionalChurch #FaithAndWork #Discipleship #ChristianLeadership #PublicFaith #Vocation –––––––––––––––– Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Christian faith has been politicized. Arguably, this is not new. But what we see in America and other societies has a jarring impact for those who seek a credible public Christian faith. To examine how Christian faith has been politicized in recent years, preacher and public theologian Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove joins Mark Labberton, asking what moral resistance requires in this authoritarian moment. "I couldn't know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice." In this episode: Wilson-Hartgrove reflects on his Southern Baptist formation, his political awakening, and a conversion that reordered his understanding of Jesus, justice, and public life. And: Trying to understand Christian nationalism, authoritarian power, poverty and race, moral fusion movements, just war theology, the discipline of prayer, and how churches can reclaim biblical values for the common good. Episode Highlights "I couldn't know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice." "The radical separation of faith from justice was a way my faith was stolen from me." "We are in an authoritarian crisis that tells its own version of reality." "Christian nationalism offers an alternative reality that very sincere people come to trust." "Prayer interrupts the liturgy of consumerism and gives us another story." About Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove is an author, preacher, and public theologian working at the intersection of Christian faith, moral movements, and public life. He serves as Assistant Director of the Yale Center for Public Theology and Public Policy and has spent more than two decades in faith-rooted movements for social change. A longtime collaborator with Bishop William J. Barber II, he has helped articulate the Moral Movement's moral framing of poverty, race, and democracy. Wilson-Hartgrove is the author of multiple books on public faith, justice, and Christian discipleship, and a co-creator of the widely used prayer resource Common Prayer. He lives in North Carolina, where his work remains grounded in local churches and communities. Learn more and follow at jonathanwilsonhartgrove.com and @wilsonhartgrove Helpful Links and Resources Revolution of Values: Reclaiming Public Faith for the Common Good https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9781506484136/Revolution-of-Values Common Prayer (with Shane Claiborne) https://www.zondervan.com/p/common-prayer/ White Poverty (with William J. Barber II) https://www.uncpress.org/book/9781469661927/white-poverty/ Yale Center for Public Theology and Public Policy https://publictheology.yale.edu/ Show Notes – Growing up in rural North Carolina tobacco country; The Andy Griffith Show based on his former community – Southern Baptist formation, scripture memorization, and the King James Bible – Moral Majority era shaping faith and politics – Early ambition to serve Jesus through political power – Greyhound trip to Washington, DC with grandfather – Becoming a Senate page at sixteen – Working in the office of Strom Thurmond – Encountering the racial subtext of American politics – "There was a distance between Sunday school and what was practiced" – Learning how southern politics realigned after civil rights – Leaving partisan politics searching for faithful public life – Disorientation and not knowing another way to be Christian – Meeting a preacher shaped by the civil rights movement – Discovering a faith that named injustice without condemnation – "I needed another way to be Christian in public" – Colorblind theology and segregated church life – Conversion as seeing Jesus and reality differently – Faith reordered by relationships, not ideology – Christian opposition to the Iraq War – Traveling to Iraq during U.S. bombing – "According to just war theory, this wouldn't be a just war" – How common sense changes over time – Christian nationalism and manufactured moral narratives –...

As violence erupts around the world, how must we respond to those who worship power? In Venezuela, global power has reshaped lives overnight, and Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza join Mark Labberton to reflect on faith, fear, and Christian witness amid political upheaval in Latin America. "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol." Together they discuss how experiences of dictatorship, displacement, and pastoral caution shape Christian responses to invasion and regime change; the relationship between power and idolatry; the moral realities that come with violent and nonviolent action; fear and pastoral responsibility; the global impact of diaspora and migration; how prayer informs action; and how the church bears faithful witness under ruthless power. –––––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights –––––––––––––––––– About Elizabeth Sendek Elizabeth Sendek is a theologian and educator specializing in Latin American Christianity, theology and power, and the church's public witness under political violence. Her work draws from lived experience across Latin America, particularly contexts shaped by dictatorship, corruption, displacement, and ecclesial resilience. She has taught theology in academic and pastoral settings, engaging questions of ethics, political theology, and Christian responsibility in fragile societies. Sendek is widely respected for her ability to connect historical memory, biblical theology, and contemporary crises, especially regarding migration, authoritarianism, and Christian hope. Her scholarship and public engagement consistently emphasize prayer joined with concrete action, resisting both naïveté and cynicism. She speaks regularly to churches, students, and leaders seeking faithful responses to power and suffering. About Julio Isaza Julio Isaza, born in Colombia, is married to Katie Isaza and is the father of Samuel and Benjamin. He served with the Covenant Church of Colombia from 1995 to 2006 and later earned a master of divinity degree in Chicago, where he lived for six years. Between 2012 and 2015, he worked in the formation of university students and young professionals with Serve Globally in Medellín, Colombia. From 2016 to 2025, he served in peace-building processes in conflict areas of Colombia and also as a professor at the Biblical Seminary of Colombia, teaching in the areas of missional theology, cultural context, and holistic impact strategies. During this time, he also worked with Indigenous communities in the Colombian rainforest, engaging in oral theology initiatives. His work has focused on holistic discipleship, theological education, and peace-building. He holds a master's degree in Conflict and Peace from the University of Medellín and is currently pursuing a PhD in Theology and Peace at the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies in England. A US citizen, he resides in Minnesota with his family, where he is writing his doctoral dissertation titled "Cultivating Integral (Biblical) Peace in a Context of Socio-environmental Violence." –––––––––––––––––– Helpful Links And Resources Princeton Theological Seminary https://www.ptsem.edu Psalm 73 (New International Version) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+73&version=NIV Brownsville Covenant Church (David Swanson) https://www.brownsvillecovenant.org Christians for Social Action https://christiansforsocialaction.org –––––––––––––––––– Show Notes –––––––––––––––––– #FaithAndPolitics #LatinAmerica #ChristianWitness #PowerAndViolence #Venezuela #ChurchAndState #PublicTheology Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What happens when a long pastoral calling ends, friendships fade, and the church faces cultural fracture? Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer (42 years in ministry at Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, CA) joins Mark Labberton for a searching conversation about retirement from pastoral ministry, loneliness, leadership, and the meaning of credible witness in the Black church today. "Ministry can be a lonely business." In this episode, Bishop Ulmer reflects on the stepping away after four decades of pastoral leadership, navigating aloneness, disrupted rhythms, and the spiritual costs of transition. Together they discuss pastoral loneliness, friendship and grief, retirement and identity, church leadership after elections, authenticity versus attraction, political division in congregations, and whether the church still centers Jesus. Episode Highlights About Kenneth C. Ulmer Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer is Bishop Emeritus of Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, California, where he served as senior pastor for more than four decades. A nationally respected preacher, civic leader, and mentor, Ulmer played a significant role in the spiritual and economic life of Los Angeles, including the preservation of the Forum as a major community asset. He has been a prominent voice in conversations about the Black church, urban ministry, and faithful Christian leadership amid cultural and political change. Ulmer continues to teach, preach, and advise leaders while reflecting publicly on vocation, aging, and wisdom in ministry. Learn more and follow at https://www.faithfulcentral.com Helpful Links And Resources https://www.faithfulcentral.comhttps://comment.org/conversinghttps://faith.yale.edu/credible-witness Show Notes #KennethCUlmer #PastoralLeadership #ChurchAndCulture #CredibleWitness #FaithAfterRetirement #AuthenticityVsAttraction Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Can joy be anything but denial in a rage-filled public life? Michael Wear joins Mark Labberton to reframe politics through the kingdom logic of hope, agency, and practices of silence and solitude. As 2025 closes amid political discord, we might all ask whether joy can be real in public life—without denial, escapism, or contempt. "… Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." In this conversation, Michael Wear and Mark Labberton reflect on joy, hope, responsibility, and agency amid a reaction-driven politics. Together they discuss the realism of Advent; the limits of our control; how kingdom imagination reframes anger; hope beyond outcomes, dignity under threat, and practices (including silence and solitude) that restore clarity. Episode Highlights "Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing. … Joy is not a technique to then get people to do what you want them to do." "God's Kingdom is the range of his effective will." " Someone whose hope is rightly placed sees that a dignity denying culture does not have the final say." "Our will is effective and those things in which our will is not effective." "The pattern of domination and violence is an old one." About Michael Wear Michael Wear is the Founder, President, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan nonprofit that contends for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. He has served for more than a decade as a trusted advisor to civic and religious leaders on faith and public life, including as a presidential campaign and White House staffer. He is the author of The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life and Reclaiming Hope: Lessons Learned in the Obama White House About the Future of Faith in America. Learn more and follow at https://www.michaelwear.com. Helpful Links and Resources https://www.zondervan.com/9780310367239/the-spirit-of-our-politics/https://www.thomasnelson.com/9780718082338/reclaiming-hope/https://www.ccpubliclife.org/https://www.silenceandsolitude.org/https://dwillard.org/resources/articles/personal-soul-carehttps://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx Show Notes Jesus and the DisinheritedThe Spirit of Our Politicssilenceandsolitude.org #MichaelWear #MarkLabberton #ChristianPublicLife #ChristianPolitics #SpiritualFormation #Joy #Advent #SilenceAndSolitude #Hope #PublicWitness Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What if taking Mary seriously actually deepens, rather than distracts from, devotion to Jesus? Art historian and theologian Matthew Milliner joins Mark Labberton to explore that possibility through history, theology, and the Incarnation. In a searching conversation about Mary, the meaning of Marian devotion, and the mystery of the Incarnation, they draw from early Christianity, Protestant theology, and global Christianity, as Milliner reframes Mary as a figure who deepens devotion to Christ rather than distracting from it. "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions in regards to the way that women are understood." In this episode, they reflect on Mary as presence, witness, and theological key to understanding God's entry into human life. They discuss Marian devotion before the Reformation, excess and restraint in Christian practice, the Incarnation's implications for embodiment and gender, Protestant fears and recoveries, global Marian traditions, grief and discipleship, and why Mary ultimately points beyond herself to Christ. Episode Highlights About Matthew Milliner Matthew J. Milliner is Associate Professor of Art History at Wheaton College, where he specializes in early Christian, Byzantine, and global Christian art. His scholarship explores theology through visual culture, with particular attention to Mary, the Incarnation, and Christian devotion across traditions. Milliner is widely published in academic journals and popular outlets, including Comment Magazine, where he has written extensively on Marian theology and Christian art. He is a frequent speaker and lecturer on Christianity and aesthetics, and his work bridges evangelical theology, Anglican practice, and historic Christian tradition. Milliner is also known for his teaching on icons, pilgrimage, and the relationship between art, doctrine, and discipleship. Helpful Links and Resources Comment Magazinehttps://comment.org/columns/material-mysticism/ https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Lamb-Story-Global-Icon/dp/1506478751https://www.wheaton.edu/academics/faculty/matthew-milliner/ https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300217216/mary-in-early-christian-faith-and-devotion/ https://www.ucpress.edu/books/goddesses-and-the-divine-feminine/paperhttps://www.harvard.com/book/9780823218394https://www.usccb.org/prayers/angelushttps://www.walsinghamanglican.org.uk Show Notes Goddesses and the Divine FeminineThe Wounded Stag #ConversingPodcast #MatthewMilliner #MaryTheology #Incarnation #ChristianTradition #AdventReflections #FaithAndArt Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

How should Christian faith shape work in an era of pluralism, fear, and systemic inequality? Sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund (Rice University) is presenting new insights for faith at work through data, theology, and lived experience. "People love to talk about individual ethics … but what was really hard for them to think about was, what would it mean to make our workplace better as a whole?" In this episode, Ecklund joins Mark Labberton to reflect on moving from individual morality toward systemic responsibility, dignity, and other-centered Christian witness at work. Together they discuss faith and work, the gender and race gaps created by systemic injustice, fear and power, religious diversity, rest and human limits, gender and racial marginalization, and the cost of a credible Christian witness. Episode Highlights About Elaine Howard Ecklund Elaine Howard Ecklund is Professor of Sociology at Rice University and Director of the Boniuk Institute for the Study and Advancement of Religious Tolerance. She is a leading sociologist of religion, science, and work whose research examines how faith operates in professional and institutional life. Ecklund has led large-scale empirical studies on religion in workplaces and scientific communities, supported by the National Science Foundation, Templeton Foundation, and Lilly Endowment. She is the author or co-author of several influential books, including Working for Better, Why Science and Faith Need Each Other, and Science vs. Religion. Her work informs academic, ecclesial, and public conversations about pluralism, justice, and moral formation in modern society. Learn more and follow at https://www.elaineecklund.com and https://twitter.com/elaineecklund Helpful Links And Resources https://www.ivpress.com/working-for-betterhttps://www.ivpress.com/why-science-and-faith-need-each-otherhttps://www.elaineecklund.comhttps://boniuk.rice.eduhttps://comment.org/conversing Show Notes Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary. #FaithAndWork #ElaineHowardEcklund #ChristianEthics #WorkplaceJustice #ReligiousPluralism #RestAndFaith

As global powers double down on militarism and defense, Daniel Zoughbie argues that the most transformative force in the Middle East has always come from citizen diplomacy. A complex-systems scientist and diplomatic historian, Zoughbie joins Mark Labberton to explore how twelve U.S. presidents have "kicked the hornet's nest" of the modern Middle East. Drawing on his work in global health and his new book Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump, Zoughbie contrasts the view from refugee camps and microclinic networks with the view from the Oval Office, arguing that American security rests on a three-legged stool of defense, diplomacy, and development. He explains why Gerald Ford stands out as the lone president who truly leveraged diplomacy, how the Marshall Plan model of enlightened self-interest can guide policy now, and why nationalism, not mere economics, lies at the heart of Gaza's future. Throughout, he presses listeners toward "citizen diplomacy" that resists pride, militarism, and fatalism. Episode Highlights Helpful Links and Resources https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kicking-the-Hornets-Nest/Daniel-E-Zoughbie/9781668085226https://www.aub.edu.lbhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital https://open.oregonstate.education/sociologicaltheory/chapter/politics-as-a-vocation About Daniel Zoughbie Daniel E. Zoughbie is a complex-systems scientist, historian, and expert on presidential decision-making. He is associate project scientist at UC Berkeley's Institute of International Studies, a faculty affiliate of the UCSF/UCB Center for Global Health Delivery, Diplomacy, and Economics, and principal investigator of the Middle East and North Africa Diplomacy, Development, and Defense Initiative. He is the author of Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump and of Indecision Points: George W. Bush and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. His award-winning research has appeared in journals such as PLOS Medicine, Mayo Clinic Proceedings, and Social Science and Medicine. A Phi Beta Kappa graduate of UC Berkeley, he studied at Oxford on a Marshall Scholarship and completed his doctorate there as a Weidenfeld Scholar. Show Notes Middle East Background and Microclinic Origins Social Networks, Anthropology, and Security Complex Systems and Foreign Policy From Refugee Camps to Presidential Palaces Twelve Presidents and One Exception Kicking the Hornet's Nest: Gerald Ford, Kissinger, and the Path to Peace Pride, Personality, and Presidential Failure Marshall Plan and Enlightened Self-Interest Militarism, Iran, and Nuclear Risk Ethical Realism and Max Weber Gaza, Nationalism, and Two States Citizen Diplomacy and a Better Way Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Rabbi Michael G. Holzman joins Mark Labberton to explore the formation of his Jewish faith, the pastoral realities of congregational life, and the multi-faith initiative he helped launch for the nation's 250th anniversary, Faith 250. He reflects on his early experiences of wonder in the natural world, the mentors who opened Torah to him, and the intellectual humility that shapes Jewish approaches to truth. Their conversation moves through the unexpected depth of congregational ministry, the spiritual and emotional weight of the pandemic, the complexities of speaking about God in contemporary Jewish life, and the role of cross-faith friendships. The episode concludes with Rabbi Holzman's reflections on how the suffering in Israel and Palestine reverberates among Jews and Muslims in America. Episode Highlights Helpful Links and Resources https://www.faith250.org/https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july/ https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/america-beautiful-1893I and Thou https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780684717258/i-and-thou About Rabbi Michael G. Holzman Rabbi Michael G. Holzman is the Senior Rabbi of Northern Virginia Hebrew Congregation (NVHC), where he has served since 2010. His work focuses on spiritual formation, civic engagement, multi-faith partnership, and the cultivation of communities grounded in dignity, learning, and ethical responsibility. He founded the Rebuilding Democracy Project, which developed into Faith 250, a national multi-faith initiative preparing communities for the 250th anniversary of the United States through shared reflection on foundational American texts. He teaches and writes on Jewish ethics, civic life, and spiritual resilience. Show Notes Faith 250 American Scripture Jewish Formation and Torah Pastoral Life and Congregational Meaning Pandemic and Spiritual Survival Textuality, God-Language, and Jewish Hesitations Cross-Faith Devotion and Shared Honor Israel, Gaza, and American Jewish Experience Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.