AXRP - the AI X-risk Research Podcast

How does game theory work when everyone is a computer program who can read everyone else's source code? This is the problem of 'program equilibria'. In this episode, I talk with Caspar Oesterheld on work he's done on equilibria of programs that simulate each other, and how robust these equilibria are. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2026/02/18/episode-49-caspar-oesterheld-program-equilibrium.html Note from Caspar on 2:00:06: At least given my current interpretation of what you say here, my answer is wrong. What actually happens is that we're just back in the uncorrelated case. Basically my simulations will be a simulated repeated game in which everything is correlated _because I feed you my random sequence_ and your simulations will be a repeated game where everything is correlated. Halting works the same as usual. But of course what we end up actually playing will be uncorrelated. We discuss something like this later in the episode. Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:44 Program equilibrium basics 0:14:20 Desiderata for program equilibria 0:24:35 Why program equilibrium matters 0:33:35 Prior work: reachable equilibria and proof-based approaches 0:53:26 The basic idea of Robust Program Equilibrium 1:07:47 Are ϵGroundedπBots inefficient? 1:15:06 Compatibility of proof-based and simulation-based program equilibria 1:18:32 Cooperating against CooperateBot, and how to avoid it 1:44:43 Making better simulation-based bots 2:01:22 Characterizing simulation-based program equilibria 2:21:24 Follow-up work 2:29:49 Following Caspar's research Links for Caspar: Academic website: https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/coesterh/ Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=xeEcRjkAAAAJ&hl=en Blog: https://casparoesterheld.com/ X / Twitter: https://x.com/c_oesterheld Research we discuss: Robust program equilibrium: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11238-018-9679-3 Characterising Simulation-Based Program Equilibria: https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.14570 Manifold open-source prisoner's dilemma tournament: https://manifold.markets/IsaacKing/which-240-character-program-wins-th Results of Alex Mennen's open source prisoner's dilemma tournament: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QP7Ne4KXKytj4Krkx/prisoner-s-dilemma-tournament-results-0 A General Counterexample to Any Decision Theory and Some Responses: https://arxiv.org/abs/2101.00280 Cooperative and uncooperative institution designs: Surprises and problems in open-source game theory: https://arxiv.org/abs/2208.07006 Parametric Bounded Löb's Theorem and Robust Cooperation of Bounded Agents: https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.04184 A Note on the Compatibility of Different Robust Program Equilibria of the Prisoner's Dilemma: https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.05057 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

In this episode, Guive Assadi argues that we should give AIs property rights, so that they are integrated in our system of property and come to rely on it. The claim is that this means that AIs would not kill or steal from humans, because that would undermine the whole property system, which would be extremely valuable to them. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2026/02/15/episode-48-guive-assadi-ai-property-rights.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:28 AI property rights 0:08:01 Why not steal from and kill humans 0:15:25 Why AIs may fear it could be them next 0:20:56 AI retirement 0:23:28 Could humans be upgraded to stay useful? 0:26:41 Will AI progress continue? 0:30:00 Why non-obsoletable AIs may still not end human property rights 0:38:35 Why make AIs with property rights? 0:48:01 Do property rights incentivize alignment? 0:50:09 Humans and non-human property rights 1:02:18 Humans and non-human bodily autonomy 1:16:59 Step changes in coordination ability 1:24:39 Acausal coordination 1:32:37 AI, humans, and civilizations with different technology levels 1:41:39 The case of British settlers and Tasmanians 1:47:22 Non-total expropriation 1:53:47 How Guive thinks x-risk could happen, and other loose ends 2:03:46 Following Guive's work Guive on Substack: https://guive.substack.com/ Guive on X/Twitter: https://x.com/GuiveAssadi Research we discuss: The Case for AI Property Rights: https://guive.substack.com/p/the-case-for-ai-property-rights AXRP Episode 44 - Peter Salib on AI Rights for Human Safety: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/06/28/episode-44-peter-salib-ai-rights-human-safety.html AI Rights for Human Safety (by Salib and Goldstein): https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4913167 We don't trade with ants: https://worldspiritsockpuppet.substack.com/p/we-dont-trade-with-ants Alignment Fine-tuning is Character Writing (on Claude as a techy philosophy SF-dwelling type): https://guive.substack.com/p/alignment-fine-tuning-is-character Claude's charater (Anthropic post on character training): https://www.anthropic.com/research/claude-character Git Re-Basin: Merging Models modulo Permutation Symmetries: https://arxiv.org/abs/2209.04836 The Filan Cabinet: Caspar Oesterheld on Evidential Cooperation in Large Worlds: https://thefilancabinet.com/episodes/2025/08/03/caspar-oesterheld-on-evidential-cooperation-in-large-worlds-ecl.html Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

When METR says something like "Claude Opus 4.5 has a 50% time horizon of 4 hours and 50 minutes", what does that mean? In this episode David Rein, METR researcher and co-author of the paper "Measuring AI ability to complete long tasks", talks about METR's work on measuring time horizons, the methodology behind those numbers, and what work remains to be done in this domain. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2026/01/03/episode-47-david-rein-metr-time-horizons.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:32 Measuring AI Ability to Complete Long Tasks 0:10:54 The meaning of "task length" 0:19:27 Examples of intermediate and hard tasks 0:25:12 Why the software engineering focus 0:32:17 Why task length as difficulty measure 0:46:32 Is AI progress going superexponential? 0:50:58 Is AI progress due to increased cost to run models? 0:54:45 Why METR measures model capabilities 1:04:10 How time horizons relate to recursive self-improvement 1:12:58 Cost of estimating time horizons 1:16:23 Task realism vs mimicking important task features 1:19:50 Excursus on "Inventing Temperature" 1:25:46 Return to task realism discussion 1:33:53 Open questions on time horizons Links for METR: Main website: https://metr.org/ X/Twitter account: https://x.com/METR_Evals/ Research we discuss: Measuring AI Ability to Complete Long Tasks: https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.14499 RE-Bench: Evaluating frontier AI R&D capabilities of language model agents against human experts: https://arxiv.org/abs/2411.15114 HCAST: Human-Calibrated Autonomy Software Tasks: https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.17354 Measuring the Impact of Early-2025 AI on Experienced Open-Source Developer Productivity: https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.09089 Anthropic Economic Index: Tracking AI's role in the US and global economy: https://www.anthropic.com/research/anthropic-economic-index-september-2025-report Bridging RL Theory and Practice with the Effective Horizon (i.e. the Cassidy Laidlaw paper): https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.09853 How Does Time Horizon Vary Across Domains?: https://metr.org/blog/2025-07-14-how-does-time-horizon-vary-across-domains/ Inventing Temperature: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/inventing-temperature-9780195337389 Is there a Half-Life for the Success Rates of AI Agents? (by Toby Ord): https://www.tobyord.com/writing/half-life Lawrence Chan's response to the above: https://nitter.net/justanotherlaw/status/1920254586771710009 AI Task Length Horizons in Offensive Cybersecurity: https://sean-peters-au.github.io/2025/07/02/ai-task-length-horizons-in-offensive-cybersecurity.html Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

Could AI enable a small group to gain power over a large country, and lock in their power permanently? Often, people worried about catastrophic risks from AI have been concerned with misalignment risks. In this episode, Tom Davidson talks about a risk that could be comparably important: that of AI-enabled coups. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/08/07/episode-46-tom-davidson-ai-enabled-coups.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:35 How to stage a coup without AI 0:16:17 Why AI might enable coups 0:33:29 How bad AI-enabled coups are 0:37:28 Executive coups with singularly loyal AIs 0:48:35 Executive coups with exclusive access to AI 0:54:41 Corporate AI-enabled coups 0:57:56 Secret loyalty and misalignment in corporate coups 1:11:39 Likelihood of different types of AI-enabled coups 1:25:52 How to prevent AI-enabled coups 1:33:43 Downsides of AIs loyal to the law 1:41:06 Cultural shifts vs individual action 1:45:53 Technical research to prevent AI-enabled coups 1:51:40 Non-technical research to prevent AI-enabled coups 1:58:17 Forethought 2:03:03 Following Tom's and Forethought's research Links for Tom and Forethought: Tom on X / Twitter: https://x.com/tomdavidsonx Tom on LessWrong: https://www.lesswrong.com/users/tom-davidson-1 Forethought Substack: https://newsletter.forethought.org/ Will MacAskill on X / Twitter: https://x.com/willmacaskill Will MacAskill on LessWrong: https://www.lesswrong.com/users/wdmacaskill Research we discuss: AI-Enabled Coups: How a Small Group Could Use AI to Seize Power: https://www.forethought.org/research/ai-enabled-coups-how-a-small-group-could-use-ai-to-seize-power Seizing Power: The Strategic Logic of Military Coups, by Naunihal Singh: https://muse.jhu.edu/book/31450 Experiment using AI-generated posts on Reddit draws fire for ethics concerns: https://retractionwatch.com/2025/04/28/experiment-using-ai-generated-posts-on-reddit-draws-fire-for-ethics-concerns/ Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

In this episode, I chat with Samuel Albanie about the Google DeepMind paper he co-authored called "An Approach to Technical AGI Safety and Security". It covers the assumptions made by the approach, as well as the types of mitigations it outlines. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/07/06/episode-45-samuel-albanie-deepminds-agi-safety-approach.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:37 DeepMind's Approach to Technical AGI Safety and Security 0:04:29 Current paradigm continuation 0:19:13 No human ceiling 0:21:22 Uncertain timelines 0:23:36 Approximate continuity and the potential for accelerating capability improvement 0:34:29 Misuse and misalignment 0:39:34 Societal readiness 0:43:58 Misuse mitigations 0:52:57 Misalignment mitigations 1:05:20 Samuel's thinking about technical AGI safety 1:14:02 Following Samuel's work Samuel on Twitter/X: x.com/samuelalbanie Research we discuss: An Approach to Technical AGI Safety and Security: https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.01849 Levels of AGI for Operationalizing Progress on the Path to AGI: https://arxiv.org/abs/2311.02462 The Checklist: What Succeeding at AI Safety Will Involve: https://sleepinyourhat.github.io/checklist/ Measuring AI Ability to Complete Long Tasks: https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.14499 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

In this episode, I talk with Peter Salib about his paper "AI Rights for Human Safety", arguing that giving AIs the right to contract, hold property, and sue people will reduce the risk of their trying to attack humanity and take over. He also tells me how law reviews work, in the face of my incredulity. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/06/28/episode-44-peter-salib-ai-rights-human-safety.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:40 Why AI rights 0:18:34 Why not reputation 0:27:10 Do AI rights lead to AI war? 0:36:42 Scope for human-AI trade 0:44:25 Concerns with comparative advantage 0:53:42 Proxy AI wars 0:57:56 Can companies profitably make AIs with rights? 1:09:43 Can we have AI rights and AI safety measures? 1:24:31 Liability for AIs with rights 1:38:29 Which AIs get rights? 1:43:36 AI rights and stochastic gradient descent 1:54:54 Individuating "AIs" 2:03:28 Social institutions for AI safety 2:08:20 Outer misalignment and trading with AIs 2:15:27 Why statutes of limitations should exist 2:18:39 Starting AI x-risk research in legal academia 2:24:18 How law reviews and AI conferences work 2:41:49 More on Peter moving to AI x-risk research 2:45:37 Reception of the paper 2:53:24 What publishing in law reviews does 3:04:48 Which parts of legal academia focus on AI 3:18:03 Following Peter's research Links for Peter: Personal website: https://www.peternsalib.com/ Writings at Lawfare: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/contributors/psalib CLAIR: https://clair-ai.org/ Research we discuss: AI Rights for Human Safety: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4913167 Will humans and AIs go to war? https://philpapers.org/rec/GOLWAA Infrastructure for AI agents: https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.10114 Governing AI Agents: https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.07913 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

In this episode, I talk with David Lindner about Myopic Optimization with Non-myopic Approval, or MONA, which attempts to address (multi-step) reward hacking by myopically optimizing actions against a human's sense of whether those actions are generally good. Does this work? Can we get smarter-than-human AI this way? How does this compare to approaches like conservativism? Listen to find out. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/06/15/episode-43-david-lindner-mona.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:29 What MONA is 0:06:33 How MONA deals with reward hacking 0:23:15 Failure cases for MONA 0:36:25 MONA's capability 0:55:40 MONA vs other approaches 1:05:03 Follow-up work 1:10:17 Other MONA test cases 1:33:47 When increasing time horizon doesn't increase capability 1:39:04 Following David's research Links for David: Website: https://www.davidlindner.me Twitter / X: https://x.com/davlindner DeepMind Medium: https://deepmindsafetyresearch.medium.com David on the Alignment Forum: https://www.alignmentforum.org/users/david-lindner Research we discuss: MONA: Myopic Optimization with Non-myopic Approval Can Mitigate Multi-step Reward Hacking: https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.13011 Arguments Against Myopic Training: https://www.alignmentforum.org/posts/GqxuDtZvfgL2bEQ5v/arguments-against-myopic-training Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

Earlier this year, the paper "Emergent Misalignment" made the rounds on AI x-risk social media for seemingly showing LLMs generalizing from 'misaligned' training data of insecure code to acting comically evil in response to innocuous questions. In this episode, I chat with one of the authors of that paper, Owain Evans, about that research as well as other work he's done to understand the psychology of large language models. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/06/06/episode-42-owain-evans-llm-psychology.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:37 Why introspection? 0:06:24 Experiments in "Looking Inward" 0:15:11 Why fine-tune for introspection? 0:22:32 Does "Looking Inward" test introspection, or something else? 0:34:14 Interpreting the results of "Looking Inward" 0:44:56 Limitations to introspection? 0:49:54 "Tell me about yourself", and its relation to other papers 1:05:45 Backdoor results 1:12:01 Emergent Misalignment 1:22:13 Why so hammy, and so infrequently evil? 1:36:31 Why emergent misalignment? 1:46:45 Emergent misalignment and other types of misalignment 1:53:57 Is emergent misalignment good news? 2:00:01 Follow-up work to "Emergent Misalignment" 2:03:10 Reception of "Emergent Misalignment" vs other papers 2:07:43 Evil numbers 2:12:20 Following Owain's research Links for Owain: Truthful AI: https://www.truthfulai.org Owain's website: https://owainevans.github.io/ Owain's twitter/X account: https://twitter.com/OwainEvans_UK Research we discuss: Looking Inward: Language Models Can Learn About Themselves by Introspection: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.13787 Tell me about yourself: LLMs are aware of their learned behaviors: https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.11120 Connecting the Dots: LLMs can Infer and Verbalize Latent Structure from Disparate Training Data: https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.14546 Emergent Misalignment: Narrow fine-tuning can produce broadly misaligned LLMs: https://arxiv.org/abs/2502.17424 X/Twitter thread of GPT-4.1 emergent misalignment results: https://x.com/OwainEvans_UK/status/1912701650051190852 Taken out of context: On measuring situational awareness in LLMs: https://arxiv.org/abs/2309.00667 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

What's the next step forward in interpretability? In this episode, I chat with Lee Sharkey about his proposal for detecting computational mechanisms within neural networks: Attribution-based Parameter Decomposition, or APD for short. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/06/03/episode-41-lee-sharkey-attribution-based-parameter-decomposition.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:41 APD basics 0:07:57 Faithfulness 0:11:10 Minimality 0:28:44 Simplicity 0:34:50 Concrete-ish examples of APD 0:52:00 Which parts of APD are canonical 0:58:10 Hyperparameter selection 1:06:40 APD in toy models of superposition 1:14:40 APD and compressed computation 1:25:43 Mechanisms vs representations 1:34:41 Future applications of APD? 1:44:19 How costly is APD? 1:49:14 More on minimality training 1:51:49 Follow-up work 2:05:24 APD on giant chain-of-thought models? 2:11:27 APD and "features" 2:14:11 Following Lee's work Lee links (Leenks): X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/leedsharkey Alignment Forum: https://www.alignmentforum.org/users/lee_sharkey Research we discuss: Interpretability in Parameter Space: Minimizing Mechanistic Description Length with Attribution-Based Parameter Decomposition: https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.14926 Toy Models of Superposition: https://transformer-circuits.pub/2022/toy_model/index.html Towards a unified and verified understanding of group-operation networks: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.07476 Feature geometry is outside the superposition hypothesis: https://www.alignmentforum.org/posts/MFBTjb2qf3ziWmzz6/sae-feature-geometry-is-outside-the-superposition-hypothesis Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

How do we figure out whether interpretability is doing its job? One way is to see if it helps us prove things about models that we care about knowing. In this episode, I speak with Jason Gross about his agenda to benchmark interpretability in this way, and his exploration of the intersection of proofs and modern machine learning. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/03/28/episode-40-jason-gross-compact-proofs-interpretability.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:40 - Why compact proofs 0:07:25 - Compact Proofs of Model Performance via Mechanistic Interpretability 0:14:19 - What compact proofs look like 0:32:43 - Structureless noise, and why proofs 0:48:23 - What we've learned about compact proofs in general 0:59:02 - Generalizing 'symmetry' 1:11:24 - Grading mechanistic interpretability 1:43:34 - What helps compact proofs 1:51:08 - The limits of compact proofs 2:07:33 - Guaranteed safe AI, and AI for guaranteed safety 2:27:44 - Jason and Rajashree's start-up 2:34:19 - Following Jason's work Links to Jason: Github: https://github.com/jasongross Website: https://jasongross.github.io Alignment Forum: https://www.alignmentforum.org/users/jason-gross Links to work we discuss: Compact Proofs of Model Performance via Mechanistic Interpretability: https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.11779 Unifying and Verifying Mechanistic Interpretability: A Case Study with Group Operations: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.07476 Modular addition without black-boxes: Compressing explanations of MLPs that compute numerical integration: https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.03773 Stage-Wise Model Diffing: https://transformer-circuits.pub/2024/model-diffing/index.html Causal Scrubbing: a method for rigorously testing interpretability hypotheses: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/JvZhhzycHu2Yd57RN/causal-scrubbing-a-method-for-rigorously-testing Interpretability in Parameter Space: Minimizing Mechanistic Description Length with Attribution-based Parameter Decomposition (aka the Apollo paper on APD): https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.14926 Towards Guaranteed Safe AI: https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2024/EECS-2024-45.pdf Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

In this episode, I chat with David Duvenaud about two topics he's been thinking about: firstly, a paper he wrote about evaluating whether or not frontier models can sabotage human decision-making or monitoring of the same models; and secondly, the difficult situation humans find themselves in in a post-AGI future, even if AI is aligned with human intentions. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/03/01/episode-38_8-david-duvenaud-sabotage-evaluations-post-agi-future.html FAR.AI: https://far.ai/ FAR.AI on X (aka Twitter): https://x.com/farairesearch FAR.AI on YouTube: @FARAIResearch The Alignment Workshop: https://www.alignment-workshop.com/ Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 01:42 - The difficulty of sabotage evaluations 05:23 - Types of sabotage evaluation 08:45 - The state of sabotage evaluations 12:26 - What happens after AGI? Links: Sabotage Evaluations for Frontier Models: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.21514 Gradual Disempowerment: https://gradual-disempowerment.ai/ Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

The Future of Life Institute is one of the oldest and most prominant organizations in the AI existential safety space, working on such topics as the AI pause open letter and how the EU AI Act can be improved. Metaculus is one of the premier forecasting sites on the internet. Behind both of them lie one man: Anthony Aguirre, who I talk with in this episode. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/02/09/episode-38_7-anthony-aguirre-future-of-life-institute.html FAR.AI: https://far.ai/ FAR.AI on X (aka Twitter): https://x.com/farairesearch FAR.AI on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FARAIResearch The Alignment Workshop: https://www.alignment-workshop.com/ Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 00:33 - Anthony, FLI, and Metaculus 06:46 - The Alignment Workshop 07:15 - FLI's current activity 11:04 - AI policy 17:09 - Work FLI funds Links: Future of Life Institute: https://futureoflife.org/ Metaculus: https://www.metaculus.com/ Future of Life Foundation: https://www.flf.org/ Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

Typically this podcast talks about how to avert destruction from AI. But what would it take to ensure AI promotes human flourishing as well as it can? Is alignment to individuals enough, and if not, where do we go form here? In this episode, I talk with Joel Lehman about these questions. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/01/24/episode-38_6-joel-lehman-positive-visions-of-ai.html FAR.AI: https://far.ai/ FAR.AI on X (aka Twitter): https://x.com/farairesearch FAR.AI on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FARAIResearch The Alignment Workshop: https://www.alignment-workshop.com/ Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 01:12 - Why aligned AI might not be enough 04:05 - Positive visions of AI 08:27 - Improving recommendation systems Links: Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objective/dp/3319155237 We Need Positive Visions of AI Grounded in Wellbeing: https://thegradientpub.substack.com/p/beneficial-ai-wellbeing-lehman-ngo Machine Love: https://arxiv.org/abs/2302.09248 AI Alignment with Changing and Influenceable Reward Functions: https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.17713 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

Suppose we're worried about AIs engaging in long-term plans that they don't tell us about. If we were to peek inside their brains, what should we look for to check whether this was happening? In this episode Adrià Garriga-Alonso talks about his work trying to answer this question. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast Transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/01/20/episode-38_5-adria-garriga-alonso-detecting-ai-scheming.html FAR.AI: https://far.ai/ FAR.AI on X (aka Twitter): https://x.com/farairesearch FAR.AI on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FARAIResearch The Alignment Workshop: https://www.alignment-workshop.com/ Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 01:04 - The Alignment Workshop 02:49 - How to detect scheming AIs 05:29 - Sokoban-solving networks taking time to think 12:18 - Model organisms of long-term planning 19:44 - How and why to study planning in networks Links: Adrià's website: https://agarri.ga/ An investigation of model-free planning: https://arxiv.org/abs/1901.03559 Model-Free Planning: https://tuphs28.github.io/projects/interpplanning/ Planning in a recurrent neural network that plays Sokoban: https://arxiv.org/abs/2407.15421 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

AI researchers often complain about the poor coverage of their work in the news media. But why is this happening, and how can it be fixed? In this episode, I speak with Shakeel Hashim about the resource constraints facing AI journalism, the disconnect between journalists' and AI researchers' views on transformative AI, and efforts to improve the state of AI journalism, such as Tarbell and Shakeel's newsletter, Transformer. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast The transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2025/01/05/episode-38_4-shakeel-hashim-ai-journalism.html FAR.AI: https://far.ai/ FAR.AI on X (aka Twitter): https://x.com/farairesearch FAR.AI on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FARAIResearch The Alignment Workshop: https://www.alignment-workshop.com/ Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 01:31 - The AI media ecosystem 02:34 - Why not more AI news? 07:18 - Disconnects between journalists and the AI field 12:42 - Tarbell 18:44 - The Transformer newsletter Links: Transformer (Shakeel's substack): https://www.transformernews.ai/ Tarbell: https://www.tarbellfellowship.org/ Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

Lots of people in the AI safety space worry about models being able to make deliberate, multi-step plans. But can we already see this in existing neural nets? In this episode, I talk with Erik Jenner about his work looking at internal look-ahead within chess-playing neural networks. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast The transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2024/12/12/episode-38_3-erik-jenner-learned-look-ahead.html FAR.AI: https://far.ai/ FAR.AI on X (aka Twitter): https://x.com/farairesearch FAR.AI on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FARAIResearch The Alignment Workshop: https://www.alignment-workshop.com/ Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 00:57 - How chess neural nets look into the future 04:29 - The dataset and basic methodology 05:23 - Testing for branching futures? 07:57 - Which experiments demonstrate what 10:43 - How the ablation experiments work 12:38 - Effect sizes 15:23 - X-risk relevance 18:08 - Follow-up work 21:29 - How much planning does the network do? Research we mention: Evidence of Learned Look-Ahead in a Chess-Playing Neural Network: https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.00877 Understanding the learned look-ahead behavior of chess neural networks (a development of the follow-up research Erik mentioned): https://openreview.net/forum?id=Tl8EzmgsEp Linear Latent World Models in Simple Transformers: A Case Study on Othello-GPT: https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.07582 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

The 'model organisms of misalignment' line of research creates AI models that exhibit various types of misalignment, and studies them to try to understand how the misalignment occurs and whether it can be somehow removed. In this episode, Evan Hubinger talks about two papers he's worked on at Anthropic under this agenda: "Sleeper Agents" and "Sycophancy to Subterfuge". Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast The transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2024/12/01/episode-39-evan-hubinger-model-organisms-misalignment.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:36 - Model organisms and stress-testing 0:07:38 - Sleeper Agents 0:22:32 - Do 'sleeper agents' properly model deceptive alignment? 0:38:32 - Surprising results in "Sleeper Agents" 0:57:25 - Sycophancy to Subterfuge 1:09:21 - How models generalize from sycophancy to subterfuge 1:16:37 - Is the reward editing task valid? 1:21:46 - Training away sycophancy and subterfuge 1:29:22 - Model organisms, AI control, and evaluations 1:33:45 - Other model organisms research 1:35:27 - Alignment stress-testing at Anthropic 1:43:32 - Following Evan's work Main papers: Sleeper Agents: Training Deceptive LLMs that Persist Through Safety Training: https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.05566 Sycophancy to Subterfuge: Investigating Reward-Tampering in Large Language Models: https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.10162 Anthropic links: Anthropic's newsroom: https://www.anthropic.com/news Careers at Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/careers Other links: Model Organisms of Misalignment: The Case for a New Pillar of Alignment Research: https://www.alignmentforum.org/posts/ChDH335ckdvpxXaXX/model-organisms-of-misalignment-the-case-for-a-new-pillar-of-1 Simple probes can catch sleeper agents: https://www.anthropic.com/research/probes-catch-sleeper-agents Studying Large Language Model Generalization with Influence Functions: https://arxiv.org/abs/2308.03296 Stress-Testing Capability Elicitation With Password-Locked Models [aka model organisms of sandbagging]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.19550 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

You may have heard of singular learning theory, and its "local learning coefficient", or LLC - but have you heard of the refined LLC? In this episode, I chat with Jesse Hoogland about his work on SLT, and using the refined LLC to find a new circuit in language models. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast The transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2024/11/27/38_2-jesse-hoogland-singular-learning-theory.html FAR.AI: https://far.ai/ FAR.AI on X (aka Twitter): https://x.com/farairesearch FAR.AI on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FARAIResearch The Alignment Workshop: https://www.alignment-workshop.com/ Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 00:34 - About Jesse 01:49 - The Alignment Workshop 02:31 - About Timaeus 05:25 - SLT that isn't developmental interpretability 10:41 - The refined local learning coefficient 14:06 - Finding the multigram circuit Links: Differentiation and Specialization of Attention Heads via the Refined Local Learning Coefficient: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.02984 Investigating the learning coefficient of modular addition: hackathon project: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/4v3hMuKfsGatLXPgt/investigating-the-learning-coefficient-of-modular-addition Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

The 'model organisms of misalignment' line of research creates AI models that exhibit various types of misalignment, and studies them to try to understand how the misalignment occurs and whether it can be somehow removed. In this episode, Evan Hubinger talks about two papers he's worked on at Anthropic under this agenda: "Sleeper Agents" and "Sycophancy to Subterfuge". Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast The transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2024/11/23/episode-39-evan-hubinger-model-organisms-misalignment.html Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 0:00:36 - Model organisms and stress-testing 0:07:38 - Sleeper Agents 0:22:32 - Do 'sleeper agents' properly model deceptive alignment? 0:38:32 - Surprising results in "Sleeper Agents" 0:57:25 - Sycophancy to Subterfuge 1:09:21 - How models generalize from sycophancy to subterfuge 1:16:37 - Is the reward editing task valid? 1:21:46 - Training away sycophancy and subterfuge 1:29:22 - Model organisms, AI control, and evaluations 1:33:45 - Other model organisms research 1:35:27 - Alignment stress-testing at Anthropic 1:43:32 - Following Evan's work Main papers: Sleeper Agents: Training Deceptive LLMs that Persist Through Safety Training: https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.05566 Sycophancy to Subterfuge: Investigating Reward-Tampering in Large Language Models: https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.10162 Anthropic links: Anthropic's newsroom: https://www.anthropic.com/news Careers at Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/careers Other links: Model Organisms of Misalignment: The Case for a New Pillar of Alignment Research: https://www.alignmentforum.org/posts/ChDH335ckdvpxXaXX/model-organisms-of-misalignment-the-case-for-a-new-pillar-of-1 Simple probes can catch sleeper agents: https://www.anthropic.com/research/probes-catch-sleeper-agents Studying Large Language Model Generalization with Influence Functions: https://arxiv.org/abs/2308.03296 Stress-Testing Capability Elicitation With Password-Locked Models [aka model organisms of sandbagging]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.19550 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com

Road lines, street lights, and licence plates are examples of infrastructure used to ensure that roads operate smoothly. In this episode, Alan Chan talks about using similar interventions to help avoid bad outcomes from the deployment of AI agents. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/axrpodcast Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/axrpodcast The transcript: https://axrp.net/episode/2024/11/16/episode-38_1-alan-chan-agent-infrastructure.html FAR.AI: https://far.ai/ FAR.AI on X (aka Twitter): https://x.com/farairesearch FAR.AI on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FARAIResearch The Alignment Workshop: https://www.alignment-workshop.com/ Topics we discuss, and timestamps: 01:02 - How the Alignment Workshop is 01:32 - Agent infrastructure 04:57 - Why agent infrastructure 07:54 - A trichotomy of agent infrastructure 13:59 - Agent IDs 18:17 - Agent channels 20:29 - Relation to AI control Links: Alan on Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=lmQmYPgAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=ao IDs for AI Systems: https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.12137 Visibility into AI Agents: https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.13138 Episode art by Hamish Doodles: hamishdoodles.com