The Case for Conservation Podcast

The relationship between science, policy, and society is often framed as a search for objective answers. In reality, it is shaped by partial perspectives and competing forms of knowledge. Why do certain perspectives dominate? Why is there such a persistent expectation that science can deliver answers to fundamentally political questions? And how do these dynamics affect trust in expertise? To explore these questions, I spoke with Mark Neff, Professor at the College of the Environment at Western Washington University. Mark’s work sits at the intersection of environmental policy, science policy, and science and technology studies, focusing on how societies organize and use scientific knowledge in decision-making. We discuss the limits of scientific authority in a democracy, the tensions between different forms of knowledge, the risks of claiming certainty, and why acknowledging uncertainty may be essential to restore trust in science and policy. Link to resources De-Facto Science Policy in the Making How Scientists Shape Science Policy and Why it MattersVisit www.case4conservation.com

Biodiversity loss is an ongoing challenge, but some of the language we use to describe it may be on shakier ground than we realize. Are we really living through a “sixth mass extinction”? What does that phrase technically imply, and how well is it supported by the data? And what about climate change: how much species-level extinction can credibly be attributed to warming so far, and how do you attribute causes when multiple threats interact? To explore these questions, I spoke with John Wiens, an ecologist at the University of Arizona whose work focuses on extinction rates and climate-driven range losses. We discuss what the evidence suggests about acceleration (or the lack thereof) in extinction in recent decades, why documented extinctions have been concentrated on islands and in freshwater systems, and how climate change is expected to reshape extinction risk through mechanisms like heat extremes, shifting range limits, and disease dynamics. The thread running through it all is credibility and ambition: how to communicate urgency without overclaiming, and why a stronger conservation goal is not “avoiding a mass extinction,” but preventing extinctions wherever we still can. Links to resources Future threats to biodiversity and pathways to their preventionUnpacking the extinction crisis: rates, patterns and causes of recent extinctions in plants and animalsVisit www.case4conservation.com

This episode does not argue against renewable energy—renewables are essential to decarbonization—but it does ask what the transition looks like when you account for materials, extraction, and infrastructure. The clean energy transition is often framed as a straightforward swap: renewables replace fossil fuels, emissions fall, problem solved. But beneath that story sits a harder set of questions. How material-intensive is a renewables-led grid, really? What happens when you account for the steel, concrete, and critical minerals that make wind, solar, and battery storage possible? And if mining expands dramatically to enable decarbonization, what are the environmental and social trade-offs? To explore these questions, I spoke with Saleem Ali, a systems scientist and industrial ecologist at the University of Delaware who studies the “materials–energy nexus”—the idea that energy systems are constrained not only by fuels and emissions, but by infrastructure, extraction, and supply chains. We talk about why wind and solar can be surprisingly material-heavy up front, how storage options like pumped hydro compare with large battery farms, why nuclear and biofuels remain part of the conversation, and what a more pragmatic approach looks like when every option carries trade-offs. Links to Resources The fight over minerals for green energy — and a better way forwardVisit www.case4conservation.com

The intersection of science, politics, and environmental discourse is full of puzzles: why has nuance gone missing from the conversation? Why are heterodox or balanced views often sidelined? And how do echo chambers, alarmist rhetoric, and the erosion of trust hinder lasting progress in conservation? To explore these questions, I spoke with Roger Pielke Jr., a political scientist well-known for his work on contested science in contentious policy areas, from climate and extreme weather to COVID origins and sports governance. Links to resources The Honest BrokerWhat Happened on Deliberation Day?The Rightful Place of Science: Disasters and Climate ChangeMessaging Should Reflect the Nuanced Relationship between Land Change and Zoonotic Disease Risk Visit www.case4conservation.com

The concept of rewilding has been applied in various ways, from the simple restoration of a single natural process like removing livestock to allow vegetation to recover, to ambitious proposals to reintroduce long-extinct megafauna. While some applications have obvious conservation benefits, rewilding also raises legitimate concerns, especially about how renewed interactions with reintroduced wildlife like large herbivores and carnivores, might affect human wellbeing, livelihoods, and land use. Rewilding has become a popular and sometimes controversial topic within conservation circles. It has also been gaining traction and growing public and governmental interest as societies search for more holistic approaches to restoring ecosystem processes and biodiversity. Joining me to unpack what rewilding means, and to explore the potential conflicts and compromises that come with it, is Marine Drouilly. Marine is the Regional Coordinator for Wild Cat Surveys and Research in West and Central Africa with the NGO "Panthera". Links to resources: Guidelines for evaluating the success of large carnivore reintroductionsPantheraVisit www.case4conservation.com

Multilateral environmental agreements (MEAs) are negotiated by national governments, but they also include input from various societal groups. One of these groups is youth, and their role in negotiations has grown more visible and coordinated over time. But are these contributions helping to enrich discussions and inspire ambition, or simply adding another layer to already complex processes? And why have separate groups if governments are meant to represent all of their citizens? In this episode, we take a closer look at the place of youth in forums like these — and what constructive and meaningful participation looks like. My guest is Mika Tan, advisor to the Southeast Asia chapter of the Global Youth Biodiversity Network (among other roles) and a passionate advocate for youth voices in global decision-making. Links to resources: Youth in international nature conservation: The example of youth participation in the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD)The contradictions of youth participation for intergenerational justice in urban environmental planningGlobal Youth Biodiversity NetworkVisit www.case4conservation.com

One of the most popular terms in conservation these days is “nature-based solutions” (NbS). The concept is centered around the various ways in which conservation (including restoration and sustainable use) can benefit society, economy and environment. NbS are alternatives to engineered solutions to these problems, which benefit people as well as nature. Sounds straightforward, and the concept has been taken up in government policy and largely embraced by conservation science. And yet it has been somewhat divisive, for very different reasons. Joy Ommer is scientific lead at KAJO, a Slovakia-based geoservices consultancy focused on disaster risk reduction and management. In a recent paper she and some project partners write about the importance of understanding the impacts of nature-based solutions before they are actually implemented. We discussed this and other issues around the NbS concept. Links to Resources Quantifying co-benefits and disbenefits of Nature-based Solutions targeting Disaster Risk ReductionVisit www.case4conservation.com

The term "precision agriculture" has high-tech and “big ag.” connotations, and is usually not associated with biodiversity. But there is a strong argument to be made that it is one of the best things that has happened to conservation in recent decades. Agriculture remains the biggest driver of biodiversity loss in most parts of the world, so anything that reduces its impact might be worth taking note of. Mark McConnell, an assistant professor at Mississippi State University, joins us on this episode to explain why precision agriculture is a boon for conservation. We also talk about the accompanying concept of precision conservation, which he has been promoting, as well as the old “land sharing versus land sparing” debate. For listeners unfamiliar with that debate, check the podcast notes for a couple of key references, as well as some of Mark’s work. Links to resources: What conservationists need to know about farming Precision Conservation to Enhance Wildlife Benefits in Agricultural LandscapesGamebird UniversityVisit www.case4conservation.com

The concept of biodiversity loss is absolutely integral to conservation, and I have never met anyone who has seriously challenged the idea that too many species are going extinct, nor that their extinction is a result of human pressures. So, what do we make of multiple studies telling us that we shouldn’t be focusing so much on biodiversity loss? These studies say that, on average in samples across the world, roughly equal numbers of sites are increasing in species richness and decreasing. Maria Dornelas is the ecologist, from the University of Lisbon and the University of St Andrews, at the centre of this research and she joins me to elaborate. It should be mentioned right at the start that Maria is not suggesting that biodiversity loss is not a problem, but she explains why she thinks we are doing conservation a disservice by focusing on it the way we do. Maria emphasized the importance of nuance in conversations about conservation, and this discussion is an illustration of the importance of avoiding too much generalization and simplification. Links to resources: Looking back on biodiversity change: lessons for the road aheadAssemblage Time Series Reveal Biodiversity Change but Not Systematic LossBioTIMEInside BiodiversityVisit www.case4conservation.com

Although we all have our problems, war is usually not among them. But if you do live in a war-torn country like Ukraine, war is everyones’s problem. And yet, in Ukraine at least, somehow life goes on including activities like conservation of the environment. The question is how, and why, given the many, more urgent, priorities. Marine Elbakidze is an Associate Professor at Lviv University, who focuses on sustainable landscape management, forest governance, and the social-ecological systems approach to environmental conservation. A year and a half ago she left a comfortable job in Sweden to return to Ukraine and practice her profession in her home country despite its ongoing war. Links to resources Understanding the impact of the war on people-nature relationships in UkraineVisit www.case4conservation.com

Conservation competes with a variety of other societal priorities and interests for funding and for attention. As a result, conservation projects, programmes and even broader concepts are frequently “packaged” in ways that prioritize grabbing attention. But promoting or marketing conservation initiatives in this way carries certain risks. Among them is the risk of being short-lived and without a real basis in the substance of the actual initiative – in other words a fad. Another is the risk of losing what has already been learned, when initiatives are “re-packaged” under a new buzzword. Kent Redford is the principal at Archipelago Consulting, and previously Director of the Wildlife Conservation Society Institute in New York. In 2013 Kent published a paper in the journal, Conservation Biology to flag his concerns about conservation fads. I called him up to revisit this topic, because it relates quite closely to my increasing concern about conservation buzzwords. Links to resources Fads, Funding, and Forgetting in Three Decades of Conservation Visit www.case4conservation.com

America’s reelection of Donald Trump has brought about all manner of changes in US and global politics. Some have a direct effect on environmental issues while many more may be indirectly consequential. The media, it seems, has reacted mostly with horror and predictions of disaster, and there are probably any number of commentators willing to echo those sentiments on a podcast. It might be more interesting though, and perhaps more informative, to hear the voice of a less critical environmentalist. Quill Robinson is an Associate Fellow at the Center for Strategic & International Studies (CSIS), a Washington DC-based think tank, and Assistant Director of the institute's Energy Security and Climate Change Program. He was a guest on the podcast three years back and was kind enough to accept another invitation, to weigh in on this topic. Visit www.case4conservation.com

Among most legacy media outlets and on social media, narratives about environmental issues, as well as social issues, are noticeably more extreme than they used to be. From activists to academics and from organizations to corporations, it has become common to hear phrases like “shattering Earth's natural limits”, “ecological meltdown”, and “boiling oceans”. Much of this rhetoric comes from a place of genuine concern and it usually contains important elements of truth. But it’s also often emotive and inaccurate, and there is reason to believe that it could be causing more harm than good. Ragini Prasad, an environmental engineer turned coach for leaders and changemakers, has long challenged the apocalyptic narrative surrounding our environmental discourse. She wants to calm these conversations and empower individuals to rediscover their agency. In this episode, Ragini emphasizes the importance of openness to new perspectives and points out that every existential crisis presents an opportunity for individual and collective evolution. She advocates for organic change—change that naturally emerges when we align ourselves with principles of life, resilience, and hope. Visit www.case4conservation.com

It’s not often that biodiversity legislation grabs international headlines, but thats what happened repeatedly in 2024 with the European Union’s new Nature Restoration Law. It happened first because of the ambitious nature of the law; and then because of the political tussle around its rejection and eventual approval. Along the way it gathered a trail of detractors and supporters, and has raised hopes as well as concerns, depending on who you speak to. The law’s overarching target is for Member States to put in place restoration measures in at least 20% of the EU's land areas and 20% of its sea areas by 2030. Brian MacSharry, who was also my guest for episode 10 on protected areas, is Head of the Nature and Biodiversity Group at the European Environment Agency and he has had a birds-eye view of the development of the law. He kindly agreed to respond to some of the critiques of the law, but first he goes into some detail about its content and its journey through the political process. Links to resources Nature Restoration LawVisit www.case4conservation.com

From time to time certain concepts rise to prominence in biodiversity conservation circles, and some of these follow in the footsteps of climate change analogs. One such concept is biodiversity credits. Biodiversity credits are a mechanism that allow for biodiversity conservation or restoration activities to derive a revenue stream through the production and sale of a quantifiable unit of improvement in biodiversity. Despite the technical and philosophical challenges involved in trading in biodiversity credits, or even defining a single unit, biodiversity credits are being used to offset damages to biodiversity. And given the explosion of private and public interest in biodiversity credits, they are worthy of further exploration. Helping us to explore them is Harrison Carter, an interdisciplinary conservation scientist at the University of Oxford’s Biology Department. Harrison has studied biodiversity credits in detail and shares his personal views on this complex topic. This is a fairly technical conversation, but non-conservationists should still find it interesting, and it gets easier as it goes along. We talk about the good and the bad around biodiversity credits, starting with a broad description of the concept. Links to resources: What is a unit of nature? A webpage from the University of Oxford's Department of Biology about biodiversity credits including Harrison's work Visit www.case4conservation.com

Half a century ago a group of more than 2,000 scientists signed a warning of environmental crisis and nuclear war. Named after the French town where it was compiled, the “Menton Message” turned out to be somewhat hyperbolic in its environmental predictions, and did not account for some of humankind’s remarkable developmental progress over the following decades. However, some of its concerns certainly remain prescient today. And so another, smaller, group of scientists convened, on the 50-year anniversary of the Menton Message, to revisit and modernize some of its assertions. The resulting document is “A letter to fellow citizens of Earth”, which was also summarized in an article for the journal “Nature”. It makes three key points: Although the new letter acknowledges some of the progress that we have made since the Menton Message, it emphasizes the threats and asserts the urgent need for change. Sharachchandra Lele is one of the two main authors of the 2022 letter, and the Nature article. I pushed him on the accuracy of some of the letter’s claims and assertions. The resulting conversation interrogates different aspects of the letter, and questions the idea that we are on completely the wrong track to make things right. Our conversation jumps around a bit and does not follow the sequence of the letter. But it’s about more than the letter. It’s about the notion that we need to drastically change the way we run the planet and how to affect those changes. This episode and episode 48 with Ron Bailey function as counter-points to each other, so they can be listened to as a set. Links to resources The Menton MessageA letter to fellow citizens of EarthFifty years after UN environment summit, researchers renew call for actionVisit www.case4conservation.com

International organizations, or “IOs” for short, are typically organizations to which multiple countries belong as members. They cover virtually every aspect of human endeavor and there are many that are related to environmental protection. International organizations may influence our lives quite profoundly and yet, outside our own field, we might struggle to name more than a few of them. Furthermore, it has been proposed that most of them are not functioning entities, but rather so-called“zombie organizations”. That’s what Julia Gray has suggested. Julia is an associate professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania, who has been researching zombie organizations for years. She joins me to explain how zombie organizations come about; why we don’t notice them; and what are their consequences. Links to resources Life, Death, or Zombie? The Vitality of International OrganizationsInternational Studies QuarterlyThe Montreal ProtocolCARICOMVisit www.case4conservation.com

Protection of the environment is strongly associated with regulation of the human activities that threaten it, and regulation is usually administered by government. Although almost everyone would probably agree that some regulation is necessary, regulation has a patchy record when it comes to environmental protection. And there is another approach to achieving environmental goals. Free market environmentalism, instead of protecting nature from market forces, harnesses those forces to protect nature. Or at least that's the idea. Ronald Bailey is the longtime science writer for Reason Magazine, a renowned American libertarian news & opinion outlet that’s been around for more than 50 years. Ron joins me to flesh out the case for free market environmentalism. Links to resources Ronald BaileyThe limits to growthPopulation bombSilent Spring Environmentalists Shocked That Local People Protect Forests Better Than Do GovernmentsThe Environmental TrinityOur World in DataVisit www.case4conservation.com

There are few environmental issues more emotive than the hunting of whales. Although the focus of environmentalists has shifted to other topics in recent times, whaling remains contentious whenever it is brought up. This is understandable considering that, for the first half of the 20th century and into the 1970s, several whale species were hunted to near-extinction. But as crude oil took over from whale oil as the fuel of industry whale populations began making impressive recoveries. Nevertheless, a handful of countries and populations continue to hunt them, much to the chagrin of the rest of the world. Perhaps the most high profile whaling country is Japan. To add to the saga, in 2019 Japan ended about seven decades of membership of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) - the global body responsible for the “management of whaling and conservation of whales”. There are countless sources providing the anti-whaling point of view, to some of which I will provide links in the podcast description. But comprehensive accounts of the other side of the story are less easy to find. Joji Morishita has been, among many other things, Japan’s Commissioner to the IWC (2013 - 2018) and IWC Chair (2016 - 2018) and I doubt there is any better person in the world to tell Japan’s side of the whaling story. In this fascinating discussion he explains why Japan withdrew from the IWC, and he takes on many of the core arguments against whaling. Links to resources Japan whaling: Why commercial hunts have resumed despite outcryJapan's Withdrawal from International Whaling RegulationCommercial WhalingHistory of WhalingSave the WhalesReflections on the Future of the International Whaling CommissionVisit www.case4conservation.com

Agriculture has been by far the biggest driver of land change and land degradation worldwide. And yet, it is also fundamental to the very existence of humankind. This mismatch often comes up in public discourse. Over the past year or two, for example, several European countries have seen extensive farmer protests - against rising costs and restrictive environmental regulations, among other things. Environmental groups have responded to the farmers’ appeals mostly with indignation… and yet farmers and environmentalists have a lot in common - at east potentially. Philippe Birker is co-founder of “Climate Farmers”, and his work is aimed mostly at promoting regenerative agriculture. He and I cover a range of topics in the discussion that follows, from the farmer protests to the relationship between agrochemical companies and government. Along the way, there were several “rabbit holes” that we could have gone down, and several points that I would have liked to challenge Philippe on in greater depth. But, with limited available time, I needed to bookmark most of these for another time and for future guests. Visit www.case4conservation.com