Fringe Legal

In this episode of the Fringe Legal podcast, host Ab interviews Stefan Ciesla, the co-founder and CEO of Ayora ai, a startup that focuses on helping law firms manage their revenues and improve the revenue management skills of fee earners such as attorneys and lawyers. Steven discusses the problem Ayora is solving in the legal industry and the role of lawyers as revenue managers. He explains that fee earners often have to make revenue management decisions throughout a matter's lifecycle, but they may not have the necessary skills or focus on revenue management. Ayora's smart lockup assistant helps fee earners by scanning a firm's data related to matters and providing recommendations on monitoring scope, estimates, budgets, resourcing, outside counsel guidelines, and billing. The assistant pre-drafts emails and provides relevant information to make the decision-making process easier and more efficient. Steven also addresses the challenge of balancing AI and machine learning with human control and building trust in the recommendations made. He emphasizes that Ayora prioritizes transparency and user consent and never takes any action without the attorney's knowledge. Key takeaways: Uncommon learning The legal industry may be missing out on billions of dollars of additional value due to suboptimal revenue management decisions. Podcast show notes 00:02 Introduction to the Fringe Legal Podcast 00:29 Guest Introduction: Stefan Ciesla, Co-founder and CEO of Ayora 00:58 Steven's Background and Ayora's Founding Team 02:07 The Unique Blend of Ayora's Founding Team 02:55 Understanding Ayora's Mission and Purpose 04:24 The Role of Lawyers as Revenue Managers 04:43 The Impact of Decision-Making on Revenue Management 08:28 Introducing Ayora's Smart Lockup Assistant 20:20 The Role of AI and Machine Learning in Decision-Making 27:05 The Impact of Fixed Fee Work on Revenue Management 30:12 Conclusion and Contact Information

In this episode of the Fringe Legal podcast, host Ab chats with Conan Hines, Director of Legal Technology at Fried Frank, about building a tech-enabled culture in law firms. Conan shares insights from his previous roles at Clifford Chance and other law firms, highlighting the importance of understanding the role of legal technology and the psychology and behavior of users when it comes to successful adoption and change management. Conan emphasizes the need for building trust with lawyers and finding those who are curious and open to tech-enabled solutions. He suggests starting small with bite-sized engagements to build trust over time. He also discusses the value of creating a foundation for tech adoption and balancing short-term impact with long-term goals. The conversation delves into the role of vendors in adoption, with Conan highlighting the need for a strong partnership and a transparent framework for success. He stresses the importance of vendors having a real adoption strategy and sharing learnings from what has worked in the past. Ab and Conan also discuss the challenge of incentives and tracking adoption. They explore the idea of integrating technology training into legal training to emphasize the value and importance of tech skills for lawyers. Ultimately, the key to successful adoption and building a tech-enabled culture in law firms lies in trust, continuous communication, and demonstrating the value of technology. Key takeaways: Uncommon learning: Tech adoption requires a partnership between law firms and vendors, with a focus on transparency and continuous communication.

While technology races ahead, improving legal training and education has lagged behind. Law schools excel at teaching students the law, but critical and practical skills development is often lacking. With the traditional law firm apprenticeship model fading, junior lawyers frequently lack opportunities to gain hands-on experience. Abdi Shayesteh, founder and CEO of the legal training platform AltaClaro, is on a mission to close this practical skills gap. Frustrated by the inefficiencies he experienced firsthand as a junior lawyer, Abdi has reinvented legal education and training. AltaClaro leverages experiential learning techniques rooted in education science to provide associates with hands-on practice on simulated legal matters. Show Notes

As part of our series of examining Generative AI in Practice, Fringe Legal spoke with Stephanie Corey, founder of legal operations consultancy UpLevel Ops, and Brandi Pack, UpLevel’s Legal Tech Analyst & AI Consultant. They share how legal teams can thoughtfully leverage generative AI to transform workflows, augment human skills, and futureproof roles. With proper governance and training, we can keep pace with the evolution of AI and maximize its potential. Show notes: Show Notes: [00:02:19] Getting early access to GPT-4 [00:08:00] How are the Uplevel Ops team grew adoption internally [00:11:53] People don't care about AI [00:14:51] Why to document prompts [00:18:06] How are legal teams reacting to the changing landscape [00:28:38] GenAI as a workflow tool [00:31:03] What's the future? [00:34:16] Will my role be displaced? [00:38:47] What one thing can organizations do to see immediate value from GenAI?

We sat down with Jeff Pfeifer, Chief Product Officer at LexisNexis during ILTACON 2023 to get his insights on legal AI progress, hype versus reality, increased law firm adoption, and the importance of demonstrating tangible benefits. Topics covered:

In this episode of Fringe Legal, host Abhijat Saraswat interviews Nnamdi Emelifeonwu and Feargus MacDaeid, co-founders of legal tech startup Definely. Key Takeaways: Connect with Nnamdi Emelifeonwu Connect with Feargus MacDaeid Learn more about Definely

ESG (environmental, social, governance) factors have become essential considerations for companies seeking to manage risk, attract investment, and operate sustainably. Yet myths and misconceptions persist around what ESG is and how best to approach it. This leads many legal teams to view ESG as an amorphous compliance exercise rather than a strategic priority. Recently on the Fringe Legal podcast, Abhijat Saraswat interviewed ESG expert Kai Gray, CEO of advisory firm Motiv, to demystify ESG and offer practical guidance for legal professionals. In this episode, learn what ESG means and how legal teams can pragmatically prioritize it. Get clarity on ESG frameworks, strategic rollout, and avoiding common pitfalls.

Summary: In this insightful episode of Fringe Legal, host Abhijat Saraswat has an in-depth discussion with India Preston, Director of Platform Solutions at legal tech startup Lupl. They delve into India's winding journey into legal project management, tactical approaches to driving adoption, and how to effectively challenge established processes. India shares learnings and advice drawn from her diverse experiences - from helping build out Linklaters' LPM function from the ground up to make the leap to an early-stage legal tech startup. She provides a rare longitudinal view of how legal project management has evolved from a little-known concept in 2013 to a widely recognized, if still poorly understood, discipline today. Key Takeaways: Actionable Takeaway: Start Small Before Going Wide Explore in detail at Fringe Legal.

In this episode, our guests Brad Blickstein, David Cambria, and returning guest Keith Maziarek join host Ab to discuss the findings from the 3rd Legal Pricing and Project Management (LPMM) Survey Report. They delve into the key challenges and trends shaping the legal industry, touching upon innovation, technology, client expectations, and the future of legal service delivery. Tune in to explore the data and analysis from the report, as these experts share their perspectives on the current state and future of legal operations. Key discussion points: Don't miss this in-depth conversation that offers valuable insights for legal professionals interested in legal tech, legal project management, and legal service delivery. A more in-depth commentary is available on FringeLegal.com

Professional services environments are stressful. Among the myriad of items to be juggled each day, you must manage workloads, managing the capacity of employees - what kind of work & how frequently work is allocated. How well this aspect is managed will impact performance, productivity, DEI, and retention. As part of our startup series, we speak with William Dougherty, Co-Founder of Capcity, a legal tech tool that looks to improve the allocation of work. In the episode, we'll discuss (numbers are time markers):

The guest this week are co-founders of New York-based Priori Legal. Basha Rubin, the company's Chief Executive Officer, and Mirra Levitt, the Chief Product Officer, met as classmates at Yale Law School and found Priori. Earlier this year, they announced a funding round of $15 million. Priori works with in-house legal teams to connect legal departments with the right outside counsel for projects globally, saving them time and money. We discuss Legal Tech trends, their origin story, raising funds a Women Founders, and the secret sauce for successful legal teams.

Legal operation teams have been increasing in popularity. In this episode, Liz Lugones and Sumi Trombley from Uplevel Opsshare why Legal Ops teams matter, why you should care, and how to leverage them to level up your legal team (in-house and at firms). Uplevel Ops are offering a complimentary 30-minute consultation, you can find more here. In the episode, we discuss: Article referenced Striving for Imperfection: The Complicated Relationship of Lawyers and Project Management by Sumi Trombley & Liz Lugones Key quotes (edited for a better reading experience) People and lawyers want to be able to solve the problems of their clients, but in doing so, and what's the best way to do it doesn't always mean here's the legal answer. Maybe they're looking for optionality, a strategic partner, or they are looking to reduce the risk. Whatever the answer is, you have to talk to your business counterparts to be able to figure that out.The thing that Liz hit on was 'the therapy' - that aspect of legal operations is the bridge from getting to, I know the legal answer, to how do I deliver it to my client in a way that makes them happy and feel like they have the best result. Sometimes you're not likely to go to the person who's giving you the advice and say, "I don't like the way you're giving me the advice." You need a buffer, and that's the legal operations buffer. With that in place, you can express the problem. The legal ops professional can go share it as the buffer: "I'm generally hearing from these people, And here's what I suggest we start to do to help facilitate."Often, I believe people in the profession think that legal operations are putting technology in, right? Or you're putting a process in. And I feel like the conduit that legal offspring is legal ops is not all those things. Legal ops is a mindset that needs to happen in the culture of the org, for the department to get better. The buffer is the data coming out of the technology you put in there.About the guests Elizabeth "Liz" Lugones, COO/Senior Advisor, UpLevel Ops Liz has built and managed Legal Operations teams in various industries in both public and private companies over her 20+ year career. She excels in global project management and business reengineering, with particular expertise in process improvement, change management, cross-functional collaboration and team building, but her true passion is helping others find their own strengths and talents and harness them for the value of all. Before joining UpLevel, Liz served as the Senior Director of Legal Operations at WeWork. Prior to WeWork, Liz served as Director of Legal Operations at a diverse range of companies, including UnitedLex, DXC Technology, Becton Dickinson, and MetLife. She also worked at Citigroup as Manager, Strategy and M&A. Liz holds a BA in Political Science and Journalism from Rutgers University, is certified in Lean Six Sigma and fluent in Spanish. She is based in New Jersey. Sumi Trombley, Senior Advisor, UpLevel Ops Sumi Trombley practiced in law firms and in-house legal departments for more than a decade before coming to UpLevel Ops. Sumi previously served as Director, Legal at enterprise legal services provider Marshall Denning, LLC, where she managed and trained a team of junior and senior attorneys and developed and implemented resource optimizing processes for RFPs and pre-litigation disputes. She is known for her ability to provide strategic guidance and cost-effective solutions. Prior to joining Marshall Denning, Sumi was Legal Counsel at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, serving as a de facto general counsel to top enterprise IT outsourcing accounts. She started her legal career at the law firms of Paul Hastings LLP in New York and Latham & Watkins LLP in DC, practicing corporate finance and securities law. Sumi holds a JD from Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law, and a BA in Political Economy from Georgetown University. She is based in Maryland.

To supplement the release of the Fringe Legal no-code report, which provides 100s of hours of market research in 6-min, we speak with Jackson Liu, Chief Commercial Officer at Neota, about the state of no-code in legal. During the conversation, we discuss: You can read the full No-code report at www.fringelegal.com/no-code-report/

On this episode with speak with Kai Jacob - Partner at KPMG and Co-founder of Liquid Legal Institute - about digital transformation and designing the future of law. In the episode we cover (min.seconds): Highlights from the episode What is Liquid Legal Institute We consider ourselves a collaboration community of doers. So we like to do stuff, everything that we tackle and that we focus on should lead very fast to a result. Not just talking, doing.Lack of collaboration in the legal market ...they helped us really to nail down the question of 'why is the legal market not collaborating'? That was a very interesting question because we are all sharing, we all do this together. We even have this concept of Co-opetition. Then why not work with competitors on something like setting standards? Why should we, in the legal market, cooperate? We are all making good money with this private wisdom that we have and built up over time. So why should we share? We also believe that without sharing, without creating true standards in the market, it will take ages to go through this digital transformation.Struggling with digital transformation We see that people are really struggling with digital transformation. They first don't understand why all this is happening. They're missing the digital mindset.The idea that digital transformation is something positive. They do not get the link back to legal because, they are thinking that what we do is something that's handcrafted; it's something that relies on very special knowledge.We do a perfect job of creating the perfect, beautiful contract that nobody else understands. We see beauty. And we see our role in protecting our company and defending our companies, defending our client's interests. It's just that the other side doesn't understand it.So the digital aspect is that we need to get more out of this dormant contract that's archived in the file cabinet somewhere. To make it valuable information, accessible for the digital company that we are working in.The whole idea of digital transformation is to make information that sits somewhere in an unstructured format, deep in contracts, more accessibleWe miss a huge opportunity for our profession to sit at the C-suite table and contribute to the overall goals of the enterprise. Second, everything moves so fast. We are overwhelmed with the speed of change. And we need to understand that change is constant and it will never go back to a slow motion mode. It will not happen. It will be fast. So we need to learn how to become adaptable, call it agile, call it whatever, but we need to adapt fast to a changing world. We need first to understand what is digital, and second how to deal with that in an agile working model.About Liquid Legal Institue The Liquid Legal Institute is an open and interdisciplinary platform for promoting a new way of thinking in the legal sector. Digitalization, new business models and technological innovations are currently changing all major industries worldwide. However, the legal sector has not yet benefited sufficiently from these trends. The Liquid Legal Institute was founded by seven experts from legal and business practice, design thinking, and computer science to close this gap.

Lawyers and firms have long struggled to find the right way to price their services. The hourly billing model focuses on the amount of time spent on a matter, project, or case. This can often lead to inefficiencies and frustration for the lawyer and the client. Value based pricing is an alternative that takes into account the value of the service being provided rather than simply the time spent. It means that lawyers and firms are paid based on the results they achieve for their clients. The incentive becomes focused on getting better results. Value-based pricing can also help build trust and improve communication between lawyers and clients. However, that doesn't make pricing or pricing conversations any easier. In this episode, we go into the rabbit hole of pricing. SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW: iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher Special thanks to Paul Stroka of LexFusion for making the introduction to Keith. Episode content Here are some of our favorite takeaways from the episode (edited to be reading-friendly). Value of work One of the things that get ignored in discussions with clients or in the clients' calculus and how they determine what they're getting for the bills they're paying is that there's never a very accurate way of measuring the value that was captured from the services, and what the outcome was.It's always what was that bill? That bill is high. Maybe you bought a company, in an M&A scenario, that had subsidiaries or locations in highly regulated, highly risky territories - where there's a ton more work to be done. It's not an apples-to-apples kind of company. So you don't look at what I got for the price I paid? You're just saying the bills are higher now. Price discrimination Ab: How do you demonstrate that we're going to charge you X, and it's worth more than X to you as an outcome?Keith: Price discrimination is the short answer to that. Not everything is worth the same amount. By nature, and this is not any judgment or me trying to take a position on the actual value or the value of the practitioners doing this kind of work. But by nature, there's a spectrum of complexity, and the stuff that's really complex on the highly complex side tends to be more scarce. There is a more scarce supply of people who can do it.On the opposite side, on a more commoditized side or the more routine side - it's not as complex, and there are more options to avail yourself of to do that work. Client sophistication - apply the scalpel, not the hatchet My particular role is to ensure that the firm is as profitable as possible and that we're making our clients as happy as possible in terms of service delivery models and getting the outcomes they want. The conversation with the client depends on the level of sophistication: I'd say architecting and implementing some of those solutions depends on the sophistication that the client or the person on the buy-side has. There are only so many levers in this business in terms of what I can do. It's all about service delivery models and the underlying economics. This isn't astrophysics. There are not huge, massively complex data jobs in most cases (there are some benefits to that in different scenarios).There are a couple of levers on who's going to do the work and how much they have to do, what's the cheapest way to do it, and what the outcome will be. How do those things correlate (the price to the product)? Having those conversations with people that understand that better is important.I've worked with several legal operations groups where they have the knowledge, the understanding, and the sophistication. Still, there's a gap in the level of influence they have over the in-house attorneys... Different sides of the table, same challenges: We have very similar challenges - in-house and the law firm side - as it relates to getting the lawyers to understand the economics, the process, and to engage attorneys with it - to really adopt it. As opposed to, 'Yeah, but...

Leading teams during times of crisis presents a unique challenge. Many of which are multiplied when you are a startup and the team was only formed months ago. And then, overnight, everyone suddenly felt very fragile. It's a unique feeling and unique in a bad way because suddenly you have no idea what to do. And the feeling is that you're very lost.Yet, that is exactly the challenge that faced Alex Tsepko, CEO of Lawrina - a website that provides useful content and productivity tools for lawyers. The entire team for Lawrina was in Ukraine, and things changed overnight as the country was invaded. Lawrina CEO, Alex Tsepko, speaks about his experience leading a newly formed team through a sudden crisis - the invasion of Ukraine - and finding growth through a shared vision. In this episode, we cover (timestamps in parenthesis): Recognizing that it wasn't possible to continue doing anything the old way, Alex ensured that his team was safe and pivoted to continue working to execute their vision. The business went from a domestic play to having an international group with traffic growing 35%+ each month. As Alex shares, "it was not easy," but the team came together during a time when they felt fragile to build something they believed in. Alex Tsepko is the CEO of Lawrina.com. You can connect with Alex on LinkedIn. If you like the show, then I know you'll love the Fringe Legal newsletter which is full of interviews, articles, and reports to help Legal innovators like yourself learn how to put ideas into practice and find success. You can sign up for free at FringeLegal.com.

What role does creativity play in a law firm and legal practice? "You can be creative in any industry and anything that you do. Creativity is a mindset. It's being open to new ideas, new trends that diversity of thought, as we mentioned, being willing to experiment and try things, seeing things through a different lens than people typically do. To me, that's what creativity really is. It doesn't mean you have to invent something new and be insanely innovative. It just means you can look at a lot of things that are out there and say, 'Hey, you know what? That's interesting. Maybe we can use that somehow.'" In this episode, we cover: Read the Fringe Legal newsletter which includes additional commentary on each of the topics. About Dale Miller Dale Miller is a Business Development and Marketing strategist with 20 years of experience and expertise in professional services firms, the advertising industry, and technology startups. She has held Director of Marketing and Business Development positions at regional and international firms, in the legal and financial industries, leading strategy, content, business development, and strategic partnerships. Dale is currently a Practice Development Manager at Holland & Knight. Prior to her work in legal, Dale founded and ran businesses, including a marketing consultancy and her talent agency, Miller Creative Partners, which represented photographers and directors, and worked with national ad agencies and their blue-chip clients. She has served on the Board of Lawyers for the Creative Arts, and is an active member of Northwestern University’s Law and Technology Initiative.

Matt Coatney is a seasoned C-level product and technology executive, entrepreneur, advisor, author, and speaker with 25 years of experience helping businesses and technology work better together. He has led divisions and portfolios for large global corporations, co-founded three companies and advised several others, been an early-stage employee of two successful tech startups, advised dozens of business and technology professionals across all stages of company formation and growth, and launched over a dozen successful products. Episode content Resources mentioned The Human Cloud BookHuman Cloud PodcastJoyce Tong Oelrich on law firms as a subscription business Subscribe to Fringe Legal for deeper insights from each episode

Technology is a frequent topic of conversation. It comes up almost every single episode. And while it's fun to talk about amazing new tools or features, ultimately, you have to tie the tech back to the business strategy. Easy to say, difficult to execute. It's harder still when tracking and working with emerging technology, where there may not yet be a baseline for success. We tackle those points and so much more in the episode today. Episode content For more detailed notes visit www.fringelegal.com

On the podcast this week, I speak to Quddus Pourshafie, co-founder of antiCPD a new training business looking to flip the necessary evil of CPD on its head. They have a bold vision: Essentially, we want it to be the most AntiCPD CPD training you've ever seen. CPD is one of the least favorite activities of any lawyer, right? It's something that must be done, but no one particularly enjoys that period of time. Or if it's spread throughout the year most people tick it off. It's a checkbox item. And now that it's virtual and prerecorded people can freely fall asleep... So that's one aspect that we wanted to completely blow out the water.