Counsel to Counsel - Career Advice for Lawyers

We’ve talked a lot on this show about sales and marketing and how selling legal services is different than selling a product. That’s good news for those of us in the legal industry because many of us don’t like the thought of being a salesperson. Selling legal services is about relationships building. The challenge, however, is that clients generally don’t need your services all the time. You don’t know when a client, potential client, or referral source will have a need or hear of a need. That’s why it is important to stay top of mind over a long period of time. But how do you do that? How can you make yourself memorable whether you are delivering a pitch, giving a presentation, or simply building relationships in the community. In this episode, Merry Neitlich talks about that. I’ve know about Merry for years, but we only met more recently through the ProVisors business network. Back in the early 1990s when legal marketing was starting to take off, Merry was one of the pioneers in the legal marketing community. Merry Neitlich has over 25 years of experience in law firm marketing, business development, and strategic planning. She provides attorneys and law firms with tools to grow their business and to successfully identify, court, and convert targets into clients. She has conducted hundreds of client feedback interviews and has a lot of experience helping firms with branding, Merry has been an active member of the Legal Marketing Association. She is a frequent national speaker and author. In 2017, she was inducted into the Legal Marketing Association Hall of Fame. She is also an accomplished nationally ranked adult competitive figure skater. Additional Resources If You Are Not Memorable, Don’t Expect to Be Remembered

I've had a number of guests on this show speaking about leadership. A large part of this is that I'm very interested in the subject. But I also feel that this is a skill set that is often neglected in the legal profession. As lawyers, we learn a lot about our craft in law school and even more once we are in practice. As professionals, we are taught to analyze the law and help our clients to identify legal risks. Our job is to be skeptical and to apply dispassionate reasoning to the situation so that our clients can protect themselves from legal exposure and comply with the law. We work to get our clients the best possible outcome whether it is in a litigation matter or in a corporate or real estate deal. We help our clients to achieve their personal or business objectives in a way that avoids legal risk or accomplishes their legal objectives. But the same skills that we cultivate in practicing law can interfere with our ability to be an effective leader. Whether you are a managing partner, a practice group leader, running your own law firm, serving as a general counsel, or managing other members of the legal team as an assistant general counsel, you need a different skill set to be successful. In particular, emotional intelligence is one skill that you need to cultivate in order to be successful in a leadership role. In this episode, Susan Schwartz provides great insights on that subject. Susan Schwartz is a leadership coach and management consultant. She equips technical experts and teams with the skills they need to become excellent leaders. Her tagline is : Transforming expert professionals into emotionally intelligent leaders. Additional Resources Episode 129-Law Firm Leadership with Kristi Royse 15 Tips For Leadership Success Episode 121-John Buckley on Building Your Executive Presence Episode 103-Ben Sachs on Building High-Performance Legal Teams Episode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law Department

The practice of law has evolved a lot in the three decades since I graduated from law school. Technology has replace many monotonous functions and computers have replaced paper. The internet has revolutionized how legal research is done and how law firms market themselves. It has enabled remote work and interaction in a way that was unimaginable in the 1980s. At the same time, there are some fundamental things that have not changed. The practice of law is still a service business that requires a lot of human interaction. Law firms are still challenging places to work. Clients can be demanding, the stakes can be high, and the billable hour can create unwanted incentives. In addition, lawyers like their autonomy. Managing a group of lawyers is not for the faint of heart and takes a skill set that is very different than the skill set needed to practice law. So what do you need to know to be an effective law firm leader? How can you inspire partners, associates, paralegals, and administrative staff to give it their all? Kristi Royse joins me in this episode to answer those questions. Kristi Royse is the CEO of KLR Consulting. She is a nationally recognized speaker, facilitator, management consultant, executive coach, and trainer. Since 1987, Kristi has been coaching executives to be stronger leaders and helping organizations optimize their most vital resource - their people. Kristi works with law firms and other organizations to help their leaders build the skills they need to thrive in rapidly changing circumstances. She helps leaders, teams, and leaders-to-be tap their potential, improve their leadership abilities, and strategically shift their perspective.

For a long time, I’ve been meaning to invite a judge onto Counsel to Counsel to talk about judicial careers. Going on the bench is a logical next step for many litigators and I wanted to speak to a judge who could offer some practical wisdom on the subject. When I met Paul Wilson at an ABA conference in late 2022, I realized right away that I had a great prospect. At the time, Paul was still sitting on the bench, so we decided to wait until he reached mandatory retirement. Paul is in fact now retired; but he remains very active in a number of law related activities. In this episode, Paul shares his wisdom on judicial careers. What does it mean to transition from litigator to judge? What are the pluses? What are the potential minuses? And how do you position yourself for a judgeship? In the Spring of 2023, The Honorable Paul Wilson retired from the Massachusetts Superior Court, the highest trial court in the Commonwealth. He sat for over a decade on the Superior Court after being in private practice for 30 years at the law firm of Mintz Levin. Paul spent most of his career doing real estate, land use, and environmental litigation. He has always had a strong commitment to public service and has received a number of awards for his pro bono and volunteer efforts.

In the legal press and even in popular media, larger law firms tend to get a most of the attention. In truth, a high percentage of lawyers in the United States practice in firms that are under 20 attorneys. And many of those are solo practitioners or very small firms that have broken away from larger firms. While I know that there are many lawyers who are satisfied with practicing in a large or mid-sized firm, as technology has continued to improve over the last two decades, I have seen many attorneys realize the benefits of running their own practice. Being your own boss is not for everyone, but I can say as a solopreneur, it can be very rewarding. I have worked with quite a few lawyers who have left comfortable law firm jobs to go out on their own or join forces with a handful of colleagues. Most of them are happier on the other side. The challenge for lawyers who are contemplating this type of move is that they have never run their own business. Where should the practice be located? What services should the firm provide? And perhaps even more challenging: What technology should you be using to run your practice? Should you hire anyone? What are your obligations to employees? How should you set up your books? Who should do your website or maintain it? and What things should you be outsourcing? To answer those questions and provide some tips on how to be successful as you launch your own practice, I invited Diane Camacho. Diane is the owner of DLC Consulting Services, LLC. She and her team work with established law firms to improve operations and increase profits. They also help attorneys start their own firms. Diane has worked with many partners who have decided to break away from much larger firms. She has helped them get set up so that their launch is smooth, and they are set up for future success.

When I graduated from law school in the late 1980s, there was no internet, no email, and fax machines were widely in use. I used a Dictaphone to generate correspondence and had an assistant to transcribe the tapes. While working remotely was possible because of the telephone, going into an office was the norm. In the intervening years, the rate of technological change has been truly astounding. And while the internet, email, and social media have continued that evolution, in my opinion, the explosion of AI in the practice of law has been the most significant change in my lifetime. Never before has it been easier to run a practice as a solo. The array of tools for research, communication, analysis, and drafting are replacing human labor. I’ve always been interested in technology and while I do try to keep up, technology is not my major. So I’ve invited Colin Levy to talk about the state of the art in legal tech in the practice of law. Colin S. Levy is a lawyer and legal tech author and speaker. Throughout his career, Colin has seen technology as a key driver in improving how legal services are performed. Because his career has spanned industries, he witnessed myriad issues, from a systemic lack of interest in technology to the high cost of legal services barring entry to consumers. Now, his mission is to bridge the gap between the tech world and the legal world, advocating for the ways technology can be a useful tool for the lawyer’s tool belt rather than a fear-inducing obstacle to effective legal work. Colin is the author of The Legal Tech Ecosystem which discusses the development of the legal tech ecosystem over the past two decades, and how legal technology can help lawyers work more efficiently. In addition, he is the editor of the Handbook of Legal Tech. A few years ago, I began seeing Colin come up a lot more in my LinkedIn feed and I realized that is was time to sit down with him and pick his brain! In this episode we discuss his overall philosophy about the use of technology in the law, his book, the Legal Tech Ecosystem, the biggest obstacles the legal industry faces when it comes to adopting new technology, and his role at Malbek. Additional Resources Episode 120-Scaling Your Law Firm with AIEpisode 107-ChatGPT and Trends in Legal Marketing Technology-with Jared Correia

We talk a lot on this program about finding ways to build a more satisfying legal career. While many attorneys are drawn to the profession because they care about justice, they like the idea of becoming a trusted advisor, or they just enjoy the intellectual rigor of being an attorney, status and money are important too. But if you are like me, one of the reasons you chose law school rather than business school is because math is not your jam. If you are a lawyer who has been practicing for a few years and thinking about your financial health and your financial future, you may have questions about paying off your student loans or figuring out how much to start saving for retirement. Maybe you aren’t sure how to organize your finances now that you are planning for life’s big events like buying a house or starting a family. Maybe you are thinking about eventually starting your own law practice and you aren’t sure how to get your financial house in order. James Grace has joined me for a very practical conversation about managing your finances as you get past the early stages of your legal career. Jim is the Director of Wealth Management for Silver Pine Capital. Jim worked at regional wealth management agencies and banks before joining Silver Pine. Jim describes himself as an educator, coach, motivator, confident, coach. He is also the host of the Modern Financial Wellness podcast. He is also someone I've gotten to know, like, and trust through my ProVisors business network. Additional Resources Episode 62- Financial & Career Planning for Senior Attorneys Episode 93-Planning for Retirement with Julie Jason, The Discerning Investment Advisor

In this episode, I speak with my first “threepeat” guest, Lauren Rikleen. This is Lauren’s third appearance on Counsel to Counsel. She was actually one of my first guests when I launched the show in 2018. In that episode, we spoke about success strategies for women and the work she has done on that issue. In the Spring of 2022,I invited Lauren back to talk more about her legal career including working in the field of environmental law as it was just taking off. We also spoke about what inspired her to make a career shift away from the practice of law. If you haven’t already listened to it, I invite you to go back to episode 81. I met Lauren in the early 1990s when I was at Massachusetts Continuing Legal Education and later had the privilege of sitting on her Standing Committee on Work/Life Balance when she was President of the Boston Bar Association. I knew soon after I met her that Lauren is someone who is not afraid to speak up when she sees injustice. She is also a person with a big heart who cares not only about making an impact but also about investing in the success of professionals who come from disadvantaged groups. Most importantly, she laughs at most of my jokes and keeps me laughing as well. I invited Lauren back because she is the editor of a new book entitled Her Honor. Her Honor is an inspiring compendium of the lives of 25 female judges including many judges of color. Most of these judges were women who overcame significant gender and racial discrimination to get to the bench and all of them are judges who felt a great sense of responsibility to continue the fight for racial and gender equity. I also invited her back to talk about the important work that she is doing through Lawyers Defending American Democracy. Lauren Rikleen is President of the Rikleen Institute for Strategic Leadership. She is also the Executive Director of Lawyers Defending American Democracy. Additional Episodes Episode 87-The Advancement of Women in Law with Elise Holtzman Episode 81-Lauren Rikleen-Rebel with Many Causes

December is a great time to take stock, hit the reset button, and do some planning. With 2024 around the corner, I’ve been speaking with my clients about setting goals for the new year. I’m not talking about making New Year’s resolutions. It's important to understand that resolutions and goals are not the same. Resolutions often lack specificity and a plan of action, making them easy to abandon. On the other hand, setting clear, well-defined goals lays a foundation for measurable progress and sustained success. In this episode, I’m pleased to welcome Wendy Merrill and Jennifer Forester, two great coaches who also work with the legal community. Jen and Wendy are also talking right now to their clients about goal setting and they have some great tips to share. In our conversation, we speak about setting marketing and business development goals for your law practice. But Wendy and Jen also have some thoughts about other areas in your professional and personal life where setting goals can help ensure that you are moving forward in all aspects of your life. They also discuss creating a “To Don’t” list. Jennifer Forester helps lawyers avoid random acts of marketing. She’s a business development coach for corporate and consumer attorneys, drawing on 20 years of experience in sales, marketing, and client service roles with big law and boutiques. Jen lives in northern California with her two Boxer dogs and her husband, who is a family law attorney. Wendy Merrill is a growth strategist, thought leader, and founder of StrategyHorse. StrategyHorse is a consulting firm dedicated to improving law firm profitability through alignment and engagement strategies. For over a decade, Wendy has been working with lawyers and firms to revolutionize the practice of law. Wendy lives in the DC area. Additional Resources Episode 109-Sarah Tetlow on Delegating and Dealing with DistractionEpisode 57- Billable Work v. Investment Hours (Dr. Sarah Reiff-Hekking on Time Management)

As attorneys, we share many qualities that make us effective in representing our clients. Our skepticism, aversion to risk, sense of urgency, competitiveness, and pessimism, can all be good for out clients. But when it comes to building a practice, advancing our careers, or taking on leadership roles, we are more effective when we remove our lawyering hats. As it turns out, these qualities can also have a pernicious effect on our mental health. In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, I share my thoughts on why it is important to stop thinking and acting like a lawyer in social situations. Additional Resources Stop Thinking (and Acting) Like a Lawyer–unless you are giving legal advice!Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers of Massachusetts- free and confidential mental health and substance abuse services for attorneys (check your state bar for similar resources in other states)Episode 70-Shailini George on Doing Well and Being Well in the Law

It is axiomatic that if you want to have a successful legal career, you need to learn your craft. Most areas of legal practice require highly refined analytical abilities coupled with good judgment. For the most part, the first developmental task of any new lawyer is to learn how to practice law. But if you want to advance in your career, you need to be more than a good technician. Demonstrating executive presence is also key. In this episode, I am pleased to introduce John Buckley, Board Secretary and General Counsel for the North Carolina operations of a multinational mobility infrastructure company. John talks about how building your executive presence is critical to advancing your career, especially if you want to want to take on leadership responsibilities. In a great conversation, John discusses what executive presence is, who needs it, and what it looks like. He offers his practical tips on how increase your own executive presence. Over the summer, I heard John give a great presentation on this topic for the American Bar Association and I decided I had to have him on the show. Lucky for me, he accepted my invitation right away. John Buckley has served 3 times as the first in-house counsel for start-ups. He has 15 years of solo/small law department General Counsel experience. He began his professional life as an engineer for Duke Power. Additional Resources Ted Lasso (🍎TV+) and Lessons in Leadership and Performance 15 Tips for Leadership Success Episode 118-Paths to Partnership in 2023 and Beyond-With Laura Terrell Episode 103-Ben Sachs on Building High-Performance Legal Teams Episode 87-The Advancement of Women in Law with Elise Holtzman Episode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law Department

Artificial Intelligence continues to be a big unknown in the legal space. It holds tremendous promise for streamlining the delivery of legal services and is already being deployed to expedite discovery, to help draft contracts, to assist with client intake, and to streamline many other functions that once required a lot more human labor. AI is now being used by some lawyers to help assess the strength of their cases, to expedite legal research, and to draft pleadings. I know that I myself am using ChatGPT to help me prepare for presentations, craft social media posts, and to get quickly up to speed on an array of subjects that are of interest to my clients. At the same time, the use of AI raises legitimate ethical concerns. It also raises concerns about the need for so many lawyers. But according to my guest, Hamid Kohan, AI won’t replace lawyers. It will replace lawyers and other professionals who don’t use AI. Hamid Kohan is a serial entrepreneur, public speaker, and author of the book How to Scale Your Stupid AI Law Firm. Hamid started his career in silicon valley where he served as Director of Business Development of Sun Microsystems, working alongside Eric Schmidt who is today the CEO of Google and Carol Bartz the CEO of Yahoo. More recently, Hamid saw an opportunity to bring his expertise in technology and business development to the legal world, and he founded Legal Soft Inc. in 2016. In this episode, Hamid will answer some questions about where we are in 2023 with the use of AI in the practice of law. Other Resources Episode 107-ChatGPT and Trends in Legal Marketing Technology-with Jared Correia

In the past year, I’ve done a number of interviews with lawyers who have transitioned from the traditional practice of law into other corporate or consulting roles. In this episode, I speak with Shawn Hoyt about how to transition into an operations role in a corporate environment. Shawn is someone who has thought a lot about managing his own career and he has a unique perspective on career advancement. Shawn Hoyt is a Vice President at OutSystems. He began his legal career as a corporate associate at a large law firm. In 1999, I actually recruited him to his first in-house legal job. Over time, his responsibilities expanded way beyond legal. Shawn brings an unusual perspective on how to get more from your legal career and how to transition into much broader roles. Shawn is a senior legal and operational executive who has led a broad range of teams through periods of both rapid growth and transition. He has deep functional experience running commercial, Deal Desk, pricing, proposal/RFP, contracting, deal operations, vendor management, and legal teams. But he has also managed People, Talent Acquisition, Office Operations, IT, Security, Finance, and Leadership operations through periods of transition. Related Episodes · Episode 114-From Biglaw to In-house to Business Role and Back Again with Carl Berglind · Episode 113-From Litigation to Trial Consulting with Marc Diller Episode 112-From Corporate Counsel to Management Consultant-Leveraging Your Legal Career with David Lesser

Achieving partnership was once the goal of most law firm associates. The rules were relatively simple. Work hard, do a good job, and after several years, get rewarded by being elevated. Today the law firms are more complex. Many associates entering the practice of law do not aspire to become partners, at least not at the first firm they join. And at many firms, there are different paths to success which don’t include equity partnership. So, how should a young associate navigate these new realities? What is the path to partnership in the 2020s and what are other ways to define success in private practice. How do you get there? What is the impact of hybrid work arrangements on career advancement and professional development? My guest Laura Terrell has some answers. Laura Terrell is an executive coach with over 25 years of professional experience as a legal and business leader. Prior to launching her coaching practice, Laura was a Special Assistant to the President at the White House, a senior level appointee at the US Department of Justice, an equity partner in two large global law firms, and in-house counsel at a major global consulting and business advisory firm. Laura has led and managed teams of hundreds of people across multiple countries and has been a top advisor for many Fortune 500 and FTSE 100 companies. Her clients come from a wide variety of industries, including law, education, financial services, pharmaceutical, oil & gas, non-profit, health care, and technology. Some of them are senior corporate executives like CEOs and general counsels; others are lawyers and consultants, entrepreneurs, and small business owners, as well as professionals who may be returning to the workforce, making a pivot to a new career, or switching roles mid-career. Laura is my favorite kind of guest because she has such a broad perspective on the legal industry and has experienced legal careers from all sides. Additional Resources Episode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law Department Episode 73-Managing and Advancing Your Law Firm Career

Job interviews can cause a lot of stress. Over the years, I’ve come to appreciate that this is true whether you are the candidate or the interviewer. The stakes can feel high. Both sides are trying to assess whether they are right for each other. The candidate may be imagining that they are interviewing for their dream job. They may be worried about the competition. The interviewer may have a desperate need to fill a role and there are few candidates with the right mix of skills and personality. Or worse, they made a bad hire and they are now trying to fix the problem. But just like dating, neither side will really know what it is like to be married until they are actually living together. So what are some ways that candidates and employers can prepare for a good interview? What can candidates and interviewers do to make themselves more attractive to each other? How can candidates and employers get the information they need to make an informed decision about whether to extend an offer or accept an offer? In this episode, I have invited two seasoned recruiters who share their collective wisdom. Both are members of the in-house legal recruiting team at the search firm Major Lindsey and Africa. Amy Katz is a returning guest on Counsel to Counsel. Amy recently rejoined the team at Major Lindsey after spending a year recruiting in-house for her old employer Outside GC. I last spoke to Amy about her journey from big law to in-house to OutsideGC, and finally into recruiting. Amy’s career experience includes over 25 years as a practicing employment attorney. Prior to joining MLA the first time, Amy was a Member at Outside GC, advising employers on a wide range of employment law matters, conducting workplace and academic investigations, and designing and delivering compliance training. Before that, she served as senior employment counsel for Genzyme Corporation. Today, she focuses on recruiting general counsel and other in-house attorneys in a wide range of industries, most notably life sciences and technology. My second guest is Amy’s colleague, Nancy Reiner who spent over 20 years in private practice including stints at two major firms. She last served as a partner at Brown Rudnick where she worked on business, environmental and public interest litigation. Nancy has been in the legal search business since 2008. Today she is the leader of the Boston In-House Counsel Recruiting team for MLA where she focuses on placement of general counsel and other in-house counsel for public companies and private businesses, major global corporations and disruptive start-ups, hospital and other healthcare systems, and colleges and universities. Nancy has placed close to 100 senior-level leaders in corporate legal departments throughout New England and across the country. Additional Resources Tips for a Successful Job Interview-Live and Virtual Episode 5-Nailing the Job InterviewEpisode 91-Transitioning Your Legal Career to In-house and Beyond With Amy Katz

The Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly Reader Rankings Awards are out, and I’m pleased to report that once again, I did very well. This year I came in first for Lawyer Outplacement and for Business Development Coach. I also came in second for Executive Coaching. So the subject of awards is top of mind for me this week. I’m happy to be in the winner’s circle and very thankful for the great clients and colleagues who took the time to support me. But do awards really matter? Listen in to this episode of Counsel to Counsel for my analysis.

It has been over a year since I finally left the legal recruiting business to focus exclusively on coaching. Since the market has changed a lot since early 2022, I thought this would be a good time to invite someone who is still in the business to talk about the state of legal hiring. I also thought this would be a good time to revisit the topic of legal recruiting in general and who can benefit from working with a recruiter. Emily Witt is a legal recruiter with over 20 years of experience. She began her career as an in-house recruiter for Wachtell, Lipton in New York. In 2016, she moved over to the agency side and today, she places attorneys in both law firm and in-house positions. In particular, she enjoys focusing on women's advancement in both tech and healthcare. Emily hosts the podcast, Beyond the Legal Lens, that helps open the door to jobs in tech and health law. She also has a platform, the Advocate's Mic, that highlights mission-driven attorneys who are creating impactful initiatives in their communities. Emily shares her wisdom on the state of legal hiring in 2023 and offers some tips about working with a recruiter.

In the last two episodes of Counsel to Counsel, I spoke with a lawyer who left corporate practice for management consulting and a trial lawyer who has built a trial consulting business but continues to try cases. In this episode, I speak with a corporate lawyer who cut his teeth at international law firms, went in-house, moved into a business role, and is back again at an international law firm. Carl Berglind is a Shareholder with Greenberg Traurig’s Health Care & FDA group. He is based in Denver, Colorado. He focuses his practice on M&A and other complex transactions in the healthcare industry, representing both sellers and investors. In his business roles, Carl served as the CEO of an early stage animal health / AgTech company. He was also VP of M&A of a private equity backed ophthalmology platform, and Senior Vice President of Strategic Transactions at a Fortune 500 diversified health care services company. Carl was born in Sweden, and grew up in New York, Copenhagen, and Brussels. He speaks fluent Swedish and conversationally fluent French and Danish. He uses his background by working with international clients in addition to his domestic health care transactional practice. Additional Resources Episode 113-From Litigation to Trial Consulting with Marc DillerEpisode 112-From Corporate Counsel to Management Consultant-Leveraging Your Legal Career with David LesserEpisode 96-David Abromowitz-Practicing Law in the Public Interest at an AmLaw200 Firm

In Episode 112 of Counsel to Counsel, I spoke with David Lesser, a corporate lawyer who transitioned into management consulting and quit his day job as a corporate lawyer. In this episode, I speak with a litigator who has transitioned into jury and trial consulting while keeping his day job as a litigator. Marc Diller is the managing partner of Diller Law, LLP. He concentrates his practice on plaintiff side wrongful death and catastrophic bodily injury cases. As a partner with Total Trial Solutions in Massachusetts, he also acts as a trial consultant to other well-respected trial attorneys. Marc serves on the Executive Committee for the Massachusetts Academy of Trial Attorney and as chair of the Judicial Administration Section Council of the Massachusetts Bar Association. He has been involved in some of the largest jury verdicts in the state of Massachusetts. Related Episodes Episode 112-From Corporate Counsel to Management Consultant-Leveraging Your Legal Career with David LesserEpisode 104-Freelance Lawyering and Returning to Work with Montage LegalEpisode 56-Practicing Law with a Side Hustle (“Mindful Return”)

When lawyers approach me to speak about their careers, one question they often ask is “what else can I do with my law degree”. The answer to that question is of course complex. As lawyers, we are trained to spot legal issues, evaluate risk, document deals, and litigate disputes. Most employers are not actively recruiting lawyers to do anything other than practice law. But that is not to say that lawyers are destined to be lawyers for eternity. As a lawyer, you do develop transferable skills that can make you valuable in other ways. The challenge, of course, is to figure out what that transition should look like and how you can best execute a job search when your resume speaks largely to the legal work you have done. One approach to find a bridge. Look for opportunities in an industry that you are already familiar with. Another approach is to take the experience you have in doing certain types of work and find something that leverages that experience. That is what my guest, David Lesser, did after a long and successful career as a corporate and finance attorney. David spent 17 years practicing in several large firms; but for the last several decades, he has run his own business consulting firm. He and I discuss how he made that transition, what were some of the challenges, what lessons he took from the practice of law, and what advice he has for anyone thinking of moving out of private practice. David Lesser is the founder and managing partner of the Klarian Capital Group in Chicago. He provides an array of management consulting services to small and middle market companies. He helps his clients with operational, financial, and strategic planning issues. I recently met Dave at a meeting of our ProVisors networking group and we soon discovered that we both grew up in the same town on Long Island. We also figured out that he was the water polo coach of one of the kids in my grade. More importantly, I was intrigued by the fact that he actually enjoyed being a lawyer when he left the practice. He didn’t run from the law. Addition Resources Episode 104-Freelance Lawyering and Returning to Work with Montage Legal Episode 103-Ben Sachs on Building High-Performance Legal Teams Episode 56-Practicing Law with a Side Hustle (“Mindful Return”)