The Legal Ops Podcast

Dee Venello is a senior operations professional at Commvault. She has implemented contracting systems and other legal technology in multiple organizations, carefully managing diverse stakeholders with a variety of interests and workflows. She also has experience in general business operations, providing her with insight into the issues and concerns faced by teams that the legal department supports. A big thanks to LinkSquares for sponsoring this episode and for recommending Dee as a guest of the show. We discussed with Dee why LinkSquares was selected by two of her employers as the primary contracting solution for the organization. We also discussed a range of related issues, including: * The importance of CLM in general * Why change management is vital in any technology implementation * The value of cross-functional understanding and partnerships * How CLM liberates data, and what to do with it * Driving continuous improvement and "planning to plan" LINKS LinkSquares website: https://linksquares.com Dee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dee-venello-74090a40/

Alex and Elliot chat about: * how to craft an organizational AI policy * a recent tribunal decision requiring Air Canada to honor a refund policy invented by its online chatbot * recent articles on AI's impact on law firm billing and a potential shift towards value-based pricing * another recent article on the need to balance AI's precision with human insight in the practice of law A big thanks to LinkSquares for sponsoring this episode! Check out their website at: https://linksquares.com/ LINKS Air Canada decision: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/02/air-canada-must-honor-refund-policy-invented-by-airlines-chatbot/ AI impact on billing - article 1: https://www.legalfutures.co.uk/latest-news/ai-could-transform-law-firm-billing-beyond-recognition AI impact on billing - article 2: https://www.legaldive.com/news/ai-use-cases-legal-ops-deloitte-blickstein-group-report/702436/ Balancing AI and human strengths in legal practice: https://www.law.com/legaltechnews/2024/02/12/the-future-of-tech-enabled-law-practice-balancing-ais-precision-with-human-insight/

At the start of 2024 Jenn McCarron became President of the Board of the Corporate Legal Operations Consortium (CLOC), succeeding Mike Haven. We invited Jenn back on to the show to discuss: * the process of becoming President * the factors she considered in weighing up the role * CLOC's role in the legal ops community, and how it has developed over time * what changes we can expect in the future under Jenn's leadership * the extent to which Jenn's background in entertainment will be relevant to her role We also continued our tradition of beginning the year with predictions, and we invited Jenn to join us in making some of her own and assessing ours. These are some of the topics we discussed: * legal ops as a partner to the business, not just the legal team * continued growth in the importance of data and analytics * focus on enterprise technology rather than legal point solutions * future use cases for artificial intelligence * the importance of managing AI risks LINKS Jenn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennmccarron Jenn’s phone screen (discussed at 30 minutes and 40 seconds into the recording): http://tinyurl.com/5hem49yp

Alex and Elliot discuss: * The recent leadership challenges at OpenAI and what, if anything, it means for the pace of AI development and adoption * A review of podcast episodes during 2023, their favourites and why * Musings on expectations for 2024 * Elliot's continuing work on the "AI for legal teams" training course, which will be published in early 2024 under the Legal Ops Institute brand This is our last episode for 2023. A big thanks for listening to the show - we'll be back in late January or early February 2024. LINKS Legal Ops Institute: https://www.legalops.fm/institute

Noah Waisberg is the co-founder and CEO of Zuva.ai and the former co-founder and CEO of Kira Systems. He has worked for more than a decade on artificial intelligence and its application in the legal industry, beginning his work long before anyone had heard of Transformers and GPT. He is also the author of two books on artificial intelligence: "AI for Lawyers" which, as the title suggests, is focused on AI and its use by lawyers; and "Robbie the Robot Learns to Read", likely the first children's book aiming to teach younger readers about machine learning concepts. Naturally, with Noah we discussed many issues related to artificial intelligence, including: * What it was like selling AI systems to lawyers in the early 2010s * How AI adds value in the legal industry * The ability of AI to capture, distribute and amplify legal expertise * Jevons paradox and how it relates to AI in the legal industry * The role of generative AI in contract review and other legal use cases * The extent to which generative AI levels the legal tech playing field LINKS Noah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahwaisberg Noah on X: https://twitter.com/nwaisb "AI for lawyers" book: https://tinyurl.com/mx4t5nh6 "Robbie the Robot Learns to Read" book: https://tinyurl.com/3c9pjf6r

Alex and Elliot discuss: * A recent article looking at the effects of AI on productivity and quality of work by consultants at the Boston Consulting Group * A study by an English law firm finding poor legal advice provided by various Large Language Models, including GPT and Bard * A recent article discussing whether or not generative AI will be a source of competitive advantage for law firms * Elliot's anguish, and enjoyment, producing material for the upcoming "AI for legal teams" training course, which will soon be the first course published by the Legal Ops Institute A big thanks to our friends at LinkSquares for sponsoring this episode. For more information, check out their website: https://linksquares.com/ LINKS Article on AI used by BCG consultants: https://www.mi-3.com.au/20-09-2023/harvard-business-school-study-bcg-finds-knowledge-workers-using-chat-gpt-outperform Law firm research paper on AI providing legal advice: https://lpscdn.linklaters.com/-/media/files/document-store/pdf/uk/2023/october/report_linksai-english-law-benchmark_october-2023.ashx?rev=fc8c65ae-00f6-408e-9aec-4bf7846f82db&extension=pdf Article on generative AI and law firm competitive advantage: https://www.law.com/legaltechnews/2023/10/30/for-law-firms-will-generative-ai-really-be-a-major-competitive-differentiator/ Legal Ops Institute sneak peak: https://www.legalops.fm/institute

In this Talking Tech episode Alex and Elliot speak with Tim Parilla and Ashlyn Donohue from LinkSquares. LinkSquares helps organizations streamline contract management and drive efficiencies for contract-related workflows with an all-in-one CLM and legal project management platform. In addition to learning about the LinksSquares product, we discuss a range of important issues including how to get buy in for a CLM implementation, which parts of an organization are the main beneficiaries of a CLM system and why data is so valuable to legal teams. LINKS LinkSquares website: https://linksquares.com/ Tim Parilla on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-parilla-64a4b36/ Ashlyn Donohue on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashlyn-donohue-098aa31b Cockpit Counsel podcast on Apple Podcasts: https://tinyurl.com/456zmn84 Cockpit Counsel podcast on Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/27em7e4p

Microsoft is one of the most innovative and widely recognised companies in the world. How does an organisation with this level of scale and success think about legal operations? What are its strategic initiatives and thought leadership that the legal ops community can learn from? To what extent is its legal department leveraging AI and other cutting edge tools to drive efficiencies and optimization? These are among the topics we discussed with Lydia Petrakis and Tom Orrison. Lydia is a Senior Corporate Counsel and Digital Strategist focused on issues of strategy, innovation and planning as they affect the legal team. Tom is a Senior Director of Legal Operations focused on contracting, procurement, productivity solutions and support services. Both work in Microsoft's Corporate, External and Legal Affairs (CELA) department, one of the largest of its kind in the world. Other topics we discussed with Lydia and Tom include: * How the legal team is leveraging AI * The vital importance of data * The importance of understanding, and documenting, process * How to prepare lawyers and legal teams for change * How automation is adopted differently across three major work types: transact, comply and advise LINKS Lydia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lydiapetrakis/ Tom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-orrison-873ba04/

Alex and Elliot discuss: * A recent article by Ironclad's CEO arguing that AI is entering its "Napster phase" * ChatGPT now having access to current information via the internet * Recent trips to Japan, observations on intake systems in daily Japanese life and its implications for legal workflows * Elliot's new MacBook Air and Alex's ruminations on various Apple products LINKS Article on AI entering its Napster phase: https://www.fastcompany.com/90942310/ai-napster-who-going-to-own-it-next ChatGPT can now access the internet: https://www.zdnet.com/article/chatgpt-can-finally-access-the-internet-in-real-time-but-theres-a-catch/

Justin Hectus is a co-founder and Chief Information Officer at Keesal Propulsion Labs, a consultancy focused on technology and automation of legal processes. With Justin we discussed many aspects of building and delivering technology for legal teams, including: * How to ensure your team stays focused on the core mission and goals * The importance of knowing and understanding your end customer * Shipping early and iterating fast * The future of custom built legal solutions * How to build and retain a team of star players * Developing and cross-training talent through music, art and side hustles LINKS Justin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinhectus

Alex and Elliot discuss: * Introduction to the Legal Ops Institute, essential learnings for legal changemakers brought to you by the podcast * Thumbs up emoji used to accept a contract * Generative AI could reduce law firm revenue by 23.5% * 62% of legal professionals are not using AI * 2023 Asia-Pacific Legal Innovation and Technology Association (ALITA) Awards LINKS Legal Ops Institute: https://www.legalops.fm/institute Thumbs up emoji: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/thumbs-up-emoji-can-represent-contract-acceptance-sask-court-finds-1.1941866 Generative AI reducing law firm revenue: https://www.geeklawblog.com/2023/08/generative-ai-could-reduce-law-firm-revenue-by-23-5.html Legal professionals not using AI: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20230727977407/en/%C2%A062-of-Legal-Professionals-Are-Not-Using-AI-%E2%80%94-And-Feel-The-Industry-Is-Not-Ready-For-The-Technology 2023 ALITA Awards: https://alita.legal/alita-awards-2023

Alex and Elliot are joined by Tom Stephenson, host of the Dear Legal Ops podcast, to discuss: * the evolution of legal operations * career progression for legal ops professionals * the intersection of tech, ops and people * the strength of the legal ops community LINKS Tom Stephenson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tstephenson1 Dear Legal Ops podcast: https://www.dearlegalops.com/

Jenn McCarron is the Director of Legal Operations and Technology at Netflix, a board member of the Corporate Legal Operations Consortium (CLOC) and host of the CLOC Talk Podcast. If legal operations has rockstars, Jenn is undoubtedly one of them. We covered lots of ground with Jenn, including: * What legal innovation looks like at Netflix * The vital importance of storytelling and communication * Career paths for legal operations professionals * Jenn's own career path from IT program management to legal operations director * Whether or not legal design is really "a thing" * Jenn's interest in music and its relevance to her legal operations job LINKS Jenn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennmccarron

In this Talking Tech episode Alex and Elliot speak with Jerry Ting, co-founder and CEO of Evisort. Evisort combines artificial intelligence, automation and deep integration to empower customers to transform their business with industry leading contract analytics and contract lifecycle management. In addition to deep diving into Evisort's product, we discuss with Jerry the key to implementing CLM in a commercial context and how to get buy in for any complex change which affects stakeholders across the organisation. LINKS Evisort website: https://www.evisort.com/ Jerry Ting on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerryting

Alex and Elliot are joined by Kevin Clem, Chief Growth Officer at HBR Consulting, to discuss: * Predictions about AI, data and the dominance of Microsoft's productivity suite * HBR's "The Mingle" party at the recent CLOC Global Institute (with audio recorded live at the event) A big thanks to HBR Consulting for sponsoring this episode of the podcast and for hosting The Mingle party. You can find more information about them here: https://www.hbrconsulting.com/ LINKS Kevin Clem on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinclem

Want to know what it's like to attend the world's biggest legal operations conference? Or did you go and you're now keen to relive it? This is the episode for you! The unofficial theme of this year's event was: artificial intelligence and its role in the legal industry. AI was discussed in almost every session and essentially every conversation over breakfast, lunch and networking drinks. And the consistent message is that AI is already having a real impact on the legal industry through a number of practical use cases and technologies. In our interviews we covered AI from many angles, including how legal ops professionals are adopting it, how vendors are incorporating it into their products and how it will continue to affect the shape of the legal tech market. A big thanks to Evisort for sponsoring this episode and for enabling us to bring this amazing content to you. In the episode you'll hear a number of interviews with their staff, customers and partners, all of whom gave valuable insights on topics at the heart of legal operations and technology (including artificial intelligence). Find out more about Evisort here: https://www.evisort.com/

Alex and Elliot discuss: * The podcast heading to CGI 2023! * A recent survey of perceptions of legal department efficiency * Current attitudes to generative AI in legal practice * Gartner's 2023 report on core capabilities for legal operations technology LINKS Legal's role in revenue generation: https://www.legaldive.com/news/legal-department-revenue-generation-contract-negotiations-onit-elr-report/647087/ Legal department responsiveness: https://www.legaldive.com/news/legal-department-reputation-onit-elr-report-bypassing-legal/645224/ Lawyers' intentions to use generative AI: https://www.lawnext.com/2023/03/few-legal-professionals-using-or-planning-to-use-generative-ai-so-far-lexisnexis-survey-finds.html Allen & Overy's approach to generative AI: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/generative-ai-is-coming-for-the-lawyers Gartner's core capabilities for legal operations technology: https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2022-04-24-gartner-identifies-core-capabilities-for-legal-operations-technologies

Raymond Blyd is seriously into legal tech. His websites, Legal Complex and Legal Pioneer, showcase the legal tech market by highlighting the most innovative brands and, more importantly, the numbers. How much capital is flowing into legal tech? How has the funding market changed in recent times? Who are the winners and losers? What does all this tell us about the current trends and likely future developments? These are all questions that Raymond has investigated and written about, by analysing the numbers and thinking carefully about what they tell us. We covered many topics with Raymond, including: * How he became interested in legal tech * What is (and isn't) "legal tech" * What is the biggest legal tech company (it's not what you think) * What he is seeing in the legal tech numbers now that have implications for the future * How AI and GPT have and will affect the market * What all this means for the role of legal in the wider community LINKS Legal Pioneer: https://legalpioneer.org/ Legal Complex: https://www.legalcomplex.com/ Raymond on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raymondblijd/

Alex and Elliot discuss: * The release of GPT-4 * GPT-4 passes the Uniform Bar Exam * Microsoft announces Copilot for Office online * Copying GPT for under $600, by using GPT LINKS Release of GPT-4: https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/14/23638033/openai-gpt-4-chatgpt-multimodal-deep-learning GPT-4 has passed the Uniform Bar Exam: https://www.law.com/legaltechnews/2023/03/17/how-gpt-4-mastered-the-entire-bar-exam-and-why-that-matters/ Microsoft Copilot: https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/17/23644501/microsoft-copilot-ai-office-documents-microsoft-365-report Copying GPT for under $600: https://newatlas.com/technology/stanford-alpaca-cheap-gpt/

Interest in artificial intelligence has skyrocketed in the past few months thanks to rapid advances in the GPT language model and, equally importantly, many vendors incorporating the model into their products and services. But what does this mean for the legal industry, both now and in the future? To answer this question we invited Mary O’Carroll and Cai GoGwilt onto the podcast. Mary is currently Chief Community Officer with Ironclad, a US-based contract lifecycle management vendor, as well as the immediate past president of the Corporate Legal Operations Consortium and the former Director of Legal Operations at Google. Cai is a co-founder of Ironclad, its current Chief Technology Officer and formerly a software engineer with a data analytics software provider. Having both Mary and Cai on the show enabled a rich conversation about GPT and the legal industry, both from a technology perspective and a commercial perspective. Here is a taste of the topics we covered: * What actually is GPT? * What does GPT offer in the digital contracting space? * What is it good at and what are its limitations? * Is the current hype justified? * What does this mean for lawyers and legal work? * Are there any risks and, if so, how can they be managed? * What does the future hold for GPT and the legal industry? By the way, our conversation with Mary and Cai was recorded on 2 March 2023. We think it's important to provide a timestamp, given the rapid rate of developments in this space. LINKS Mary O'Carroll on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryshenocarroll Cai GoGwilt on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cai-gogwilt-77b18a22