People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast

Many view the fact that they are here, experiencing the world, as something insanely improbable... but what if it were instead entirely inevitable? The philosopher Arnold Zuboff walks us through a mind-bending argument, which he calls universalism (aka open individualism), where the improbability of your existence vanishes. It doesn’t matter which sperm met which egg, or how your ancestors got together, or how anything at all in the past unfolded, because wherever there is first-person experience, there is the same “I." Zuboff’s new book "Finding Myself: Beyond the False Boundaries of Personal Identity" features a foreword by Thomas Nagel (author of “What Is It Like to Be a Bat?”), who says that many will view the claim as “incredible, even outrageous” — but says it is too well argued to be ignored and an "important contribution." We discuss why Zuboff sees universalism as resolving many of the core quandaries of consciousness that are puzzled over, and why he's entirely certain it's the right view. Other topics include: how universalism ties into views of a multiverse and the anthropic principle; how it ties into ideas of religion and a higher power, and more. If you’ve ever lain awake at night wrestling with the sheer weirdness of being alive at all, you’ll want to listen to this episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What actually works to avoid violent outcomes when someone is armed, emotional, and on the edge? I talk with former FBI chief hostage negotiator Gary Noesner, author of Stalling for Time, about the psychology of high-stakes crisis situations — including lessons from Waco (part of which he was present for) and other cases Gary explains the “paradox of power” (why pushing aggressively often backfires), and why most so-called hostage situations are really emotional crises, not bargaining contests. We also discuss the limits of reading body language and behavior, the power of active listening, and the importance of tone of voice and how you phrase things. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What actually makes negotiations work—and why do so many “tough” tactics backfire? In this episode, Zach talks with professional negotiator Andres Lares about why the most effective deals rarely come from trying to win at all costs. Drawing from sports contracts, Fortune 500 negotiations, and decades of real-world experience, Andres explains the “power of nice,” the importance of looking for creative win-win approaches, and why public posturing can kill agreements. They also dig into the hype around body language—what’s useful, what’s overblown, and what actually matters when you’re trying to read and influence people in the real world. Andres also talks about his views on AI-assisted sales-presentation-analysis programs (like Gong and Chorus). We also talk about the realism, or lack of it, in the movie Jerry McGuire. Andres is the CEO and Managing Partner of Shapiro Negotiations Institute (SNI), and the co-author of “Persuade: The 4-Step Process to Influence People and Decisions.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A talk with Eric Robinson, a recently retired Federal Bureau of Investigation agent and former pastor, about what actually works in real-world interrogations—and what doesn’t. Drawing on 24 years in the FBI, Eric explains why techniques like friendliness and rapport are so powerful, discusses the use of silence to induce information-sharing, and talks about the importance of asking only a single question at a time. Eric also explains why he thinks nonverbal “body language” cues are not useful in law enforcement and interrogation settings. Other topics include: the reasons why so many people talk at length to police, despite it being so well known that you should ask for a lawyer; the downsides and risks of deceiving people to try to get information and confessions; some body language ideas discussed in Joe Navarro’s books; Eric’s opinions on the lie detector; and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A talk with Doug Teschner and Beth Malow—co-authors of the book Beyond the Politics of Contempt—about an aspect of bridge-building/depolarization-aimed work that rarely gets discussed: the backlash. We dig into the criticisms and skepticism that people on both “sides” throw at bridge-building efforts—claims that it’s naive, weak, morally compromised, or even a form of complicity with the "bad guys." We talk about why contempt can feel justified and righteous, how protest and resistance can unintentionally fuel us-vs-them cycles, and why simply “listening” is often seen as legitimizing harmful views. If you’ve ever thought “that empathetic bridge-building stuff all sounds nice, but now isn’t the time”—or if you’ve rolled your eyes at such work altogether—there’s a good chance this conversation addresses some objections you have. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A talk with former CIA officer Kent Clizbe about his exposure of Wayne Simmons, a man who spent more than a decade on Fox News posing as a CIA counterterrorism expert—but who was a fraud and serial liar. And we talk about how that case mirrors the case of Chase Hughes, who claims to know advanced, top-secret techniques and intelligence, and who has gained many fans, but who is a clear fraud. Topics discussed: how Kent met Wayne Simmons; why he suspected rather quickly he was a fake; how Kent’s intuition about Wayne relates to Kent’s system of holistic contextual analysis, which Kent has a book about; and the negative impacts on Kent’s life from questioning Wayne Simmons. We dig into the psychology of belief, the social and career incentives that keep scams alive, and why fans and followers resist evidence even after it’s laid out clearly. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A talk with Jackie Miller, host of the podcast “Out of Crazy Town: Your Guide to Divorcing a Narcissist.” Jackie shares her personal story of escaping a coercively controlling, psychologically abusive marriage—and how that led her to try to help others navigating similar nightmarish situations. We talk about how these relationships evolve from subtle manipulation into abusive domination and control; and we talk about the mind-bending psychology of narcissistic abuse—projection, gaslighting, smear campaigns, and the delusional self-justifications that can make these people nearly impossible to understand. We also talk about why victims often seem “crazy” to outsiders, how abusers weaponize children and the legal system, and why staying calm in the face of harassment can be the most powerful defense. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can you really tell who’s lying just by watching their body language? Are there any practical takeaways you can reliably and regularly get from studying nonverbal behavior in interrogation/interview settings? In this episode, I, Zach Elwood (author of some popular books on poker tells) talk to Chris Shelton, host of Speaking of Cults (speakingofcults.com). We take a hard look at the booming industry of alleged “body language experts,” behavior-based deception detection, and viral interrogation analysis (popular on YouTube and video platforms). We unpack why confident claims about blinks, posture, eye direction, and micro-movements are often misleading, how pseudoscience sneaks into true crime media and even law enforcement, and why innocent people can easily be anxious and seem suspicious under pressure. We discuss if there are realistic uses of body language in interrogation and other real-world settings, and what that might look like. If you’ve ever been persuaded by a YouTube body language "expert," this conversation might change how you think about behavior. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aemula is a new kind of news media platform that’s trying to tackle a big problem: the fact that the structure of our news media leads to various outcomes that amplify toxic polarization. Instead of the usual “engagement = more exposure” logic, Aemula flips the incentives. You read an article, then you tap a simple Support or Disagree button — and those signals build a living map of Aemula’s community: a 3D social network graph showing how readers, writers, and articles relate (without slapping on ill-defined partisan labels like 'left' and 'right' - labels that often unintentionally amplify us-vs-them, team-based thinking). Topics discussed: Why left/right-type labels can be a misleading way to understand beliefs or categorize content; How Aemula uses social network analysis to map out relationships and ideological groupings in an objective, data-driven way; How Aemula’s social network can help define a sort of ideological center, and how promoting content from the widely supported regions of the network can help reduce polarization; How the blockchain aspect of Aemula makes it self-governing and therefore infinitely scalable ; How Aemula’s approach could matter even more in an AI world, where chatbots and LLMs need better sources than “Reddit + Wikipedia”. If you’ve ever felt like the incentives of the media ecosystem seem destined to drive us further apart — I think you’ll appreciate learning about Aemula's paradigm-shifting approach to the news. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For many people, Trump represents a uniquely dangerous figure in American history. But what if the contemptuous, maximally pessimistic ways many people talk about Trump and Republicans help put more "wind in the sails" of polarizing, polarized leaders like Trump? What if we're in a self-reinforcing feedback loop of contempt and anger? In this talk for Richard Davies' series How Do We Fix it? (www.howdowefixit.me) Zachary Elwood argues that excessive contempt for each other is the problem underlying all other political discord and democracy-erosion problems. He and Richard discuss how liberal contempt for conservatives can create a feedback loop that empowers highly antagonistic and us-vs-them leaders, why our worst-case caricatures of the other side are so tempting and yet so wrong, and why changing how we talk about the "other side" can make us more persuasive and effective, not weaker. Learn more at www.american-anger.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I talk with journalist Ellen Huet, whose new book Empire of Orgasm digs into the strange origins and evolution of Nicole Daedone and OneTaste, and goes into more detail than the Netflix doc titled Orgasm Inc. We talk about where OneTaste’s orgasmic meditation practices actually came from, how Daedone built a movement around it, and how that movement shifted into something far more high-control and ultimately criminal. Topics discussed include: What counts as coercion when adults voluntarily join a group they can technically leave at any time? Where’s the line between unconventional lifestyle experimentation and exploitation? We talk about Nicole’s appeal, why people found her so compelling, and why charisma often has more to do with the listener than the speaker. And we discuss the paradox that makes groups like this so powerful: people can experience genuine benefits and connection at the very same time that harmful dynamics are unfolding. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Many people think there are telltale signs of lying — shifty eyes, nervous fidgeting, maybe a quick smile — that can give someone away to trained observers. But according to decades of research, that’s a myth. Still, some scientists push back on that consensus. A recent paper by well-known researcher David Matsumoto (of the company Humintell) argues that combinations of nonverbal cues might be highly useful for revealing deception. In this episode, I talk with deception researcher Tim Levine, author of Duped and creator of truth-default theory, about whether that claim holds up — and what the science says about our ability to read lies using body language. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Have you ever wondered how tracking people actually works? You’ve probably seen a lot of Hollywood depictions of how law enforcement track people over external terrain, and maybe you’ve wondered what’s real and what’s exaggerated. I talk with Rob Speiden, an instructor in what’s called “sign cutting." Rob breaks down real search-and-rescue, law-enforcement, and military use-cases; why “broken twigs” and deep foot prints are actually weak evidence; how pros actually determine the age of sign using weather history and side-by-side comparisons; and why disciplined interviewing at the start of a mission can save hours later. He’s blunt about the limits of tracking, too—like why you can’t easily deduce someone’s weight from track depth alone. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You’ve probably heard of neuro-linguistic programming (NLP). It’s a popular thing. It’s the foundation for the work of popular life/business coach Tony Robbins, and there are many other popular trainers and “gurus” who have used NLP ideas as the basis for their work. The con artist Chase Hughes, whose lies and unethical behaviors I’ve examined on this podcast, is one such false guru whose origins are in NLP. This is a reshare of an episode from Chris Shelton’s “Speaking of Cults” podcast, which you can find on YouTube. We talk about: the history and origins of NLP and the ideas it contains; the good and the bad in NLP; my own experiences working for 6 months in the NLP industry; how people like Chase Hughes and other obvious charlatans succeed at gaining popularity (e.g., Chase Hughes being promoted by Joe Rogan and Dr. Phil); how Joe Rogan's and Chase Hughes' popularity relate to political polarization; and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is it possible that internet communication, by speeding up and distorting our interactions, is agitating us and deranging us? Is it possible that by putting human interactions “on speed,” the internet amplifies some of the darker aspects of our social psychology? Are we being driven crazy by this technology? If the internet is deranging and dividing us, what are the psychological processes by which it does that? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A major barrier to reducing toxic polarization is that so many of us—especially those who are highly politically involved—see our current toxic conflict as clearly the other side’s fault. People in both groups focus on the grievances that alarm them most but often struggle to understand what bothers their adversaries. From the outside, our opponents’ complaints can look minor, silly, or misinformed compared to our concerns, which we (naturally) see as legitimate and based in reality. The more we subscribe to these narratives, the more we risk becoming arrogant, convinced that “you’d have to be an idiot” not to see which group is worse and more at fault for our conflict and division. All this serves to fan the flames of toxic polarization. This episode looks at how both political groups build their polarized, angry narratives where "it's all the other side's fault." This is a reading of a piece published on The Liberal Patriot: https://www.liberalpatriot.com/p/its-all-the-other-sides-fault Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if your sense of existence, your self-awareness, isn’t unique at all—but the very same “I” that exists in everyone, everywhere? What if you and I—and everyone—are essentially the same person? In this episode, I talk with Joe Kern, author of “The Odds of You Existing,” about Open Individualism: the radical view that there is only a single subject of consciousness, which is shared by all aware beings. Put another way: instead of seeing your odds of existing—your odds of being self-aware at this moment—as being extremely low, it’s a view of your existence as inevitable, because wherever there is a conscious being, your awareness must be present. Joe and I explore the logic of this idea, how it challenges our assumptions about identity and existence, and what it implies about death. Other topics discussed: religion, the idea of souls, free will, and the multiverse. Joe’s site is at applebutterdreams.wordpress.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Did you see the documentary Bad Vegan? It covers Sarma Melngailis’s nightmarish journey from successful New York City restaurant owner to inmate jailed for stealing millions. How did this happen? Sarma was the victim of a narcissistic con man named Anthony Strangis, who manipulated her into believing a number of wild, delusional ideas (like that he might be a non-human being with immense, other-worldly powers). He used this strange hold over her to persuade her to give him large amounts of money (much of which he blew at casinos). I talk to Sarma about her experience. We talk about: what led to her being so emotionally vulnerable that someone like Strangis could manipulate her; the factors that can lead someone to believe things that most people can see as obviously ridiculous lies; why she dislikes the “Bad Vegan” documentary maker for editing choices he made; the very difficult work of trying to survive and rebuild after such horrible and humiliating events. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does nostalgia do to our minds — and our wallets? In this talk with Jannine Lasaleta, we talk about her research into the surprising psychological and emotional effects of nostalgia. Why do people become more generous and loose with money when they’re feeling nostalgic? How are companies — and even political campaigns — harnessing nostalgia to influence us? What’s the link between our craving for “authentic” experiences, like sourdough baking or retro products, and our longing for meaning? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the summer of 2024, I went on a five-day solo retreat in the mountains of New Mexico. It was the first time I’d ever really committed to meditation, and to my surprise it turned out to be a deeply meaningful and lasting experience. In this episode, I talk about what led me to try it, what those days of fasting, solitude, and meditation were actually like, and the unexpected effects I noticed afterward in my everyday life. I also share some of the doubts and anxieties I carried into the experience, why meditation had always felt out of reach for me, and why this retreat nevertheless managed to shift something fundamental in how I relate to myself and to stress. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices