The NonProphet Podcast

Mark sits down with Raymond Ansotegui to learn about sheep, cows, Basque culture and bullfighting (and there's not a red cape in sight). We discuss the philosophical side of moving energy and keeping the flow, the somatotypes and psychological make-up required by the job. These are farm boys, ranch kids, good athletes who understand the movement of the animal and also have a particular temperament; maybe not the guy being cheered but the guy being thanked for the protecting the guy being cheered. Raymond's experience as a bullfighter gives him a unique opportunity to dispel misconceptions about rodeo, and bull riding, in particular. There isn’t any actual “fighting” in western rodeo bullfighting, rather it is a dance of grit and grace involving extreme focus, humility and respect for the animals and the athletes. Raymond describes some lessons from the arena — commit, slow down, get closer than you want to, and well, "it turns out that those same lessons applied to me helping my father live with Alzheimer's for the seven years before it took him." Later, when we were speaking about storytelling (it's how we met), and he said, "If we can find sameness then we can explore difference because we can always find our way back," which is a beautiful and universal lesson. We also dive into the concept of facilitation and conflict resolution, mediation and collaboration, and eventually the notion of a bullfighter not actually fighting the bull but rather steering and guiding its attention, another concept that has near-universal application. Raymond was born and raised in Livingston, Montana, earned his undergraduate degree from Montana State University where his father was a professor of animal science for thirty years. After attending higher education at Arizona State University (Masters degree in land reclamation, and plant and soil science) and working at the Nevada Test Site, he returned to Montana. "We learn to believe in ourselves, commit to our goals and when we get knocked down, to get back up again and again."

Michael and Kegan sit down to talk about physiology and the gulf that language builds between knowing and understanding. They go deep into new thoughts on strength training and how much of what we have done might of worked but is also wrong, “all models are wrong, some are useful.” They bring up relevant topics such as the disconnect between performing exercises versus establishing a training stimulus. They ask questions about the common cultural assumption that “bad” technique causes injury. They meet at an understanding that the body’s posture is an early pull to the grave because of how it affects a fundamental process like subconscious breathing can lead to an inability to control your state.

What can I say about Daniel Strauss other than I admire him. And it isn’t his accolades and successes in jiujitsu (though there are many) or is it his impressive physical strength, that should be studied. Nor is it his ability to think differently in such a homogenized world. It’s because of his curiosity and his zeal for living. He embodies a practice and insight that is rare these days. In October, I flew to Mallorca Spain to participate in a week-long BJJ festival. The level and sheer amount of practitioners and mastery were world-class, and out of them all, Daniel’s humble approach to teaching captured my attention and opened up the world of BJJ to what I think it can be. He is a master of his craft and yet, I know he is not done progressing. We covered the roots of grappling, and its function as the foundation for Western Civilization. We went into depth on environments (sites of power), the marketing of BJJ as a “little guy” sport that disconnected it from strength training, and what difficult tasks mean as value. I’m grateful for his time and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Books Referenced: How We Move by Dr. Rob Gray Teaching: A Subversive Activity by Neil Postman Dinosaur Training by Brooks Kubik

Jack is a legend in the climbing world, a man I looked up to when I started climbing and still do today. His obsession with the Alaska Range produced first ascents of the Isis Face on Denali, the Diamond Arête on Mount Hunter, the Viper Ridge on Mount Foraker, and Mount Barille’s Cobra Pillar, he made the first ascent of the Elevator Shaft on Mount Johnson, the north face of Thunder Mountain, and several new routes on the Mount Huntington massif. Shifting attention to the Yukon, he made the first ascent of "Arctic Discipline" on the north face of Mount Kennedy with Jack Roberts. He has traveled all over the world to climb, making expeditions to Mount Siguniang (China), Everest, the Biafo Spires, Uzam Braak and the Ogre in Pakistan, as well as the Cordilleras Blanca and Huayhuash in Peru, and finally Kashmir, in India. He received the American Alpine Club’s coveted Underhill Award for climbing achievement (1999), the Italian Alpine Club award, “Genziana Giovanne” (1999), and the Sowles Award from the American Alpine Club. "conferred from time to time on mountaineers who have distinguished themselves, with unselfish devotion at personal risk or sacrifice of a major objective, in going to the assistance of fellow climbers imperiled in the mountains," in 2003. We recorded this conversation in October of 2022 but because we had spoken for over three and a half hours I was reluctant to undertake the editing. I started editing just before his 70th birthday but that came and went before I could finish it. The conversation started tentatively as we tried to find the entry point, discussing how and where we met (in 1986), the original carbon-fiber ice tool I'd been given by Grivel the year before that I then gave to Jack, which he returned to me in 2001, and that leads him the story of nearly being killed on the north face of Mount Augusta in 2002. The rescue that ensued is quite incredible—involving the US Air Force operating over the border in Canada—the details of which Jack shares in a very sobering and thoughtful way. Augusta is in the St Elias range, which is twice as large as Switzerland, and the tallest peak, Mount Logan, is the largest massif (described as base circumference) that is above water in the world. On average 110 skiers and climbers visit the area annually (contrasted with 1200 on Denali) and 90% of those attempt Logan, so on any other peak in the range one is quite likely to be alone in one of the vastest wilderness regions on the planet. Further along we discuss the importance of preserving climbing history and the American Alpine Club's work to record interviews and document events with the Legacy Series of short films. This leads to some talk about the resource itself—rock crags and cliffs as well as the higher peaks—and how our use permanently affects not simply the surfaces (heavily polished Italian limestone in Finale Ligura is one example) but also the surrounding environment. When Jack went to Everest in 1983 there had only been four prior American expeditions to that mountain and there were four US teams on Everest that very year, and the mountain had not yet been guided. Contrast that to 2021 when 145 people summited K2 in a single day and there likely had not been more than 100 climbers who had stood on top prior to that day; guiding, fixed ropes and camps, supplemental oxygen, and significant Sherpa support for the clients have all had a dramatic impact on the craft of climbing and upon the mountains themselves. This tangent led us to a distinction between someone who wants to do the climbing and someone who wants to be regarded as a climber, and Jack is most certainly one of the former. The Mount Augusta story.

The idea must be poisoned before the activity itself can become toxic. It is precisely the misunderstanding of what the term "fitness" means that leads many away from the true, original concept and towards the quick fix, the momentary, and ultimately, the detrimental. Michael and Kegan kick off by discussing the common practice of sacrificing health for wealth, and later trying to use the wealth to unfuck what was done to earn it. The youthful notion of invincibility makes all manner of physical damage acceptable if the result is wealth or notoriety but/and "athletic longevity" doesn't make sense to someone who can't yet define actual longevity for themselves. Once physical condition or performance begins to decline (through overuse, injury or simple aging) repeating what was done a decade or more prior can be very seductive but the training that got one to a peak won't reproduce that peak after one is moving down the back-slope of that peak; none of us are 20 years old any more. At some point it is important to know and understand when to quit ... without becoming a quitter. Michael admits, "when I was younger I had to prove I wasn't lazy but as I get older I want to prove I'm not stupid. I know I don't avoid hard things, I've proven it to myself, which means it's time to learn how to take care of myself." He and Kegan observe that childhood/adolescent programming affects behavior decades later, and that maintaining a relationship with physical activity can stall or counter age-related cognitive decline; vigor in the body directly supports vitality in the mind. Understanding the true and real "how" of fitness has become more important in this era where everything has a hack or shortcut, and physical appearance often belies serious, underlying health issues.

Joe Notebaert is originally from Phoenix Arizona, USA. He received his black belt from Cesar Lima and signed by Roger Gracie in 2017 after 9 1/2 years of training at the Roger Gracie Academy in London, UK. Joe is a 2X World Champion winning gold at purple and brown belt in the masters featherweight category in 2013 and 2017. He also won gold in the European Championships in Gi in 2013, and No-GI in 2012 at purple belt featherweight. Michael sat down with Joe during the Mallorca BJJ and Yoga camp in Mallorca, Spain. This event is a passion project that has been in the works since Joe first discovered jiu-jitsu living in London. They talk about the difficulties in making your dreams a reality, especially when this event was threatened in its second year during the pandemic. https://www.mallorcabjj.com/

Kegan and Lucas join Michael to discuss what is wrong with fitness culture and how to think about changing it. This conversation starts on the topic of training consistency and how folks maintain it, which requires them to define consistent training. This quickly presents the conundrum that negative feedback slows or stops consistency, that positive feedback is needed to maintain consistency, and one must train consistently in order to 'cause' positive feedback. And to train consistently one must be semi- or totally-obsessed; to excel requires obsession, you have to be thinking about it when you're not doing it. Training, actual training, starts with a purpose, what are you training for? Why are you doing it? If the Why isn't defined, and precisely, then the work is difficult to sustain ... if you have nothing to progress toward and no way to measure or appreciate it, well, doing it isn't as easy or defensible as might otherwise be true. The guys realize that one's timeline affects point of view but also the effectiveness of the effort. High intensity training leads to a short-term outlook; a 11-minute workout, regardless of how hard it is, does not compel or inspire you to think 72 hours ahead much less ten years ahead. How will what you are doing today influence your physical and psychological condition in ten years? Do you even care? Few actually think ahead, but we all should, because we might actually live that long. And "ahead" changes over time, with understanding. At a younger age, when an entire world was laid out ahead but our appetites were demanding, if acquiring a skill or developing a fitness characteristic took longer than twelve weeks it was too long. Later, with more experience and maturity we recognized it is totally acceptable to sit with the idea that learning to jump might take one year, and that's OK. The real outcomes take time. Sadly, a short frame of reference and quick execution doesn't develop the habits that sustain the condition that was achieved in a short amount of time. To be sure, surface changes, appearance changes may happen quickly but deep, meaningful, lasting change takes time, it takes getting used to ... and living with it. They discuss using competition wisely and wonder if the biggest mistakes made in business are the same ones made in fitness, which could be a launchpad for a marketing gimmick but Michael steers them back to the idea that the intent of a workout prescription affects and changes the execution AND the result of the training session. A laundry list of exercises has no value ... but we can overwrite a lot of wrongness with a proper intention (or thesis). And more important than intent is the story surrounding it, no one remembers or cares about the science of a workout or training style, but they do recall and carry with them the story of it, the narrative built around the session or overall program ... the best storyteller might actually be the best coach or trainer. So while people chase the numbers of a set/rep/duration structure believing these to be the magical keys, others understand, and have proven that if you go long enough or hard enough stuff comes up ... and if you are sensitized and aware, that stuff might cause meaningful change.

Roger Gracie is a 10x IBJJF world champion. More notably, he is widely regarded as the GOAT of competitive jiujitsu in the gi. His dominant style is subtle and simple but the way he has claimed so many victories is based on technical precision and an understanding of the details to a degree that baffles anyone who has pursued the sport. Michael was reintroduced to BJJ by Roger while working on a motion picture in London in the summer of 2016. They met up in Mallorca, Spain for a 5-day BJJ festival where Michael was able to have a conversation with Roger about the bigger picture of a professional jiujitsu athlete’s career, and what motivates and fuels a path in combat sport. They discuss what it takes to be a great athlete, the imbalances of sport-specific training, and what it means to add to the legacy of the Gracie name.

Back in 2018 Nate Pack, who at the time was the "Undisputed King of The Airdyne" joined us for a conversation (Ep. 53) and this is the Intro we wrote for that episode: "The guys speak with Nate Pack about capacity and tolerance, about the engine and its gas tank, and get down in the weeds about numbers, which is no surprise as Nate holds a PhD in bio-engineering and is a self-described “smart guy”. He also has a high degree of mastery in extensive effort. During the conversation they divulge the secret workout everyone has been asking for, and the dietary pairings used to amplify its effect. Finally—since this is an exercise and fitness podcast—they analyze the numbers in order to coronate the undisputed king of the Airdyne, and discuss how to plot the linear progression curves of power and time to expose truth." Those numbers, achieved on the AD4 fan bike, which was the standard at the time, are: 10 minutes = 412 calories 20 minutes = 705 calories 30 minutes = 1002 calories 60 minutes = 1935 calories Nate returns to the podcast to discuss the many years of growth and change that has occurred since. We started by discussing how easily we can trick ourselves into believing that more and harder effort can overcome other poor choices, generally those of the dietary kind but when that doesn't work it's time for wholesale change. After having realized that he had gained more weight than he could tolerate or overcome with power, and along the way lost much of his aerobic fitness, Nate made a change. "Sometimes the mirror reflects the image we want to see and not the truth." He started training base (intensity) only for 15-18 hours a week, some on bike but also a lot of walking. He dropped 40 pounds in 15 weeks, 3-4 pounds per week on average, and then consciously slowed it down, taking advantage of the positive feedback but also realizing he needed to turn conscious behavior into a habit, which is more or less automatic. He took another ten pounds off over eight weeks, and slowed the weight loss down even more, while not losing focus. By the time the Logan-to-Jackson (LOTOJA) bike race was held in early-September of 2023 he had lost sixty+ pounds and rebuilt his long endurance and long threshold fitness back. This was the first time on our podcast when the following phrase was spoken, "without going into the biochemistry of PGC-1 Alpha ...", which relates to mitochondrial biogenisis and "promotes the remodeling of muscle tissue to a fiber-type composition that is metabolically more oxidative and less glycolytic in nature, and it participates in the regulation of both carbohydrate and lipid metabolism." It's a fitness podcast and sometimes complex details are discussed so a detailed description of training intensity ensues, referencing mitochondrial biogenesis, work/rest ratios for intervals, effort that produces 2.5 mmol/l lactate but would produce 5 if sustained but it isn't, etc. Yes, down in the weeds a bit but we didn't stay there, shifting instead to the concept of sustainability and the necessity of a big volume of consistency; measuring progress in years, not merely weeks or months. Once the topic of physical training is exhausted we moved on to the psychological, to freeing himself of 'expectations of outcome' while never questioning the expectation of the effort he is willing to make ... and 'will I give all that I am willing to give? Not able but willing ...' What are we willing to give to achieve our objectives, and what do we hold in reserve to apply to other activities or relationships? We hit the offramp with an exchange about learning to be kind to oneself in the midst of the unfairness of the universe, "This is the lesson I was searching for: not more watts but more growth." It's a long and powerful conversation, and sometimes quite in a niche—not every moment will be for every listener—but the high points are universally applicable, and understandable to anyone who is paying attention to the long...

Michael and Kegan sit down with Nate Pack to discuss this year's annual Space Race, which occurs on New Years Eve. Previous editions include a 24-hour Assault Bike challenge in teams of three (580 miles was the final 'winning' score), 12-hour Dante's Triathlon (ski, row, bike 50-40-30-20-10 calories repeated in teams fo 3 or 4 depending on total weight of the team), and a 6-hour 40/400 AMRAP (40 calories plus 400m run) done solo. Continuing to cut total time by 50% would obviously lead to a 3-hour event and no one saw the point in that — the goal must be challenging and difficult enough to cause change or adaptation if that is what one seeks. And the power of having a date or deadline for performance, and people to do it with should not be underestimated. Once the structure of this year's event was determined they delve into the psychological (and physical) limitations of truly hard effort, the challenges of different time domains, and how most people never actually work hard but believe they do. Nate also discusses his impressions of the Capacity manual and the eight-week progression proposed therein ... and how ‘simple’ is much harder to abide than we imagine. Within this context they cover the various interval structures and training styles that helped develop them into the athletes they are today. Finally, Michael declares, "You have to rewrite what your brain thinks is hard in order to do something harder ..." and drops the mic.

Nahko is a singer/songwriter — a musician — who truly journeys between genres and manages to reinvent his style with each successive expression. He sits down with Michael and returning guest, Adam St. Simons in the middle of their North American tour to discuss the creative process, his humble beginnings of farm work, and how great trials are often opportunities to make great music. Nahko can be found here and his tour dates here.

Michael and Kegan discuss the general frustration with people who believe they are training Zone 2 but aren't. Aerobic foundation-building sessions that are programmed by the ignorant perpetuate the lack of results and such failure is masked by cheerleading. They bemoan the “influencer” propagation that simply being on a bike or exercise equipment is Z2, and also clarify that training endurance is not an afterthought or something that you get from by merely redescribing your shitty efforts as something more “official.” They discuss using proper (accurate) language to describe aerobic training sessions in the gym and the expectations associated with it; you're not trying to get it over with you are trying to extend it. The lessons from those who have accomplished much and continue to progress in their endurance usually come to this conclusion: It's not about the time but about what happens within the time, the quality of the work is important (in this case quality is about attention, not speed). If you want to get better then you need to make the time to get better. They conclude by remarking how gym culture is in contradistinction to building endurance (punish vs reward) and how sometimes the benefit from both is simply seeing the contrast in how each develops.

Michael and Kegan reflect on the origin of the “Fitness is F*cked” theme, confirming that it was, and still is a criticism of an industry, how it has evolved from a position reserved for ranting, and how they can shift it to improve the industry without becoming a shill or charlatan. They also discuss the common practice of gyms adopting new and popular affiliations as opposed to making their own system based on effective practice. It matches the common fitness enthusiast’s habit of changing from one form of branded exercise to another as opposed to learning how they respond to different stimuli.

Mark and Michael sit down for a an old school rant that begins with Michael asking the very serious question, "Did government, Illuminati, secret society light up Burning Man with ebola so that they could off all of the people who might be able to make psychedelics legal?" Clearly, this is a very serious conversation, wherein we discuss camping, capitalism, bartering and freedom (as it relates to the presence and function of the tent city that pops up in front of the NonProphet Event Center with some regularity), accepting or abdicating responsibility, and the influence of drugs on self-appreciation and value. Michael describes the remarkable difference between 'associative' vs. disassociative behavior and that perhaps, in order to steer oneself towards better life experiences, towards a 'higher plane' so to speak, one must actively associate with reality instead of evading it, and open oneself to feeling and sensing and being aware, and that may begin with a basic premise of making different decisions regarding the food one consumes. Change on the most fundamental, dare I ay mundane, level can influence an entire cascade of different outcomes. In the moment of fulfillment, after a good and healthy meal that doesn't make you feel like shit, shared with a loved one, people feel satisfied, but society — as it is set up here — can't handle folks who are satisfied because they aren't seeking and they're not consuming and they're not indulging ... they are appreciating where they are, in the moment. That's a good thing for the species but not necessarily for the frenzied socio-economic system we find ourselves within ... because whosoever is satisfied won't fall for the advertising. And then we turned the focus to business and marketing and Michael helped me realize that continual growth of cells in the body is cancer but continual growth in business is expected and if it doesn't happen the business is considered a failure. Or at minimum unsuccessful. So how do businesses keep growing, keep increasing market share and brand awareness? Which leads to us addressing social engineering as a mechanism to turn profit on the back of predictable human behavior ... ugh, the manipulation is at an all time high while the resources, the open-to-buy of the potential customers, is rapidly declining. That said, money changes everything, and those who have it don't have to spend time or energy getting what they believe they want; they can change the outcome without actually changing their behavior. And that is very seductive ... but also a dead end. Finally, when it comes to marketing for NonProphet, we agree that we should be careful about putting the business name and logo on such cheap shit as might quickly end up in a landfill ... is that how we want to be remembered in the present and in the future? Yeah, picking through useless NonProphet tchotchkes at the dump ... that sounds good. So go ahead, acquire stuff, let it weigh you down, because carrying weight is good training, and this podcast is about fitness.

We wanted a way to address shorter topics, and sub=categories dealing with fitness specifically. So welcome into the rotation, The Fitness Is Fucked Podcast by NonProphet. In this first episode Michael and Kegan discuss some of the inherent traps of becoming a strength coach, how we let clients—who do not know—dictate training, especially with strength training, and how it is often a road to nowhere. After rereading some of the original Russian literature on strength and power in light of revising our Strength Manual, Michael noticed how what he saw and read in 2023 seemed drastically different from what he originally he saw and read over 13 years ago. The books do not change (obviously) but we do, and it highlights a very interesting aspect about learning. It is hard to learn when you think you already know what you are looking for.

This was originally recorded in 2019 and appeared as Episode 67, when this was sill The Dissect Podcast. Currently we are deep in print, digital, and construction projects that prevent us recording with the frequency we once insisted upon. However, as we went through the archives we discovered some real gems of conversations that merit revisiting. Hoby Darling made us feel like under-achievers once we learned his background. His law degree is from Northwestern, his graduate degrees in business from UC Berkeley and Columbia, and he worked for Volcom and Nike before becoming CEO of Skullcandy, then executive director of Jaybird/Logitech. He has raced Ironman events, competed in CrossFit, and coached a number of top performing athletes. This impressive resumé pales beside his mission, as a founding member of the Liminal Collective, "to advance the limitless potential of humans, preparing and supporting those who take pioneering steps in extreme, unexplored, and unknown spaces." During the podcast we spoke about the Logitech Cognitive Performer Summit, where in 2019, Mark joined a panel to discuss the influence of the natural environment on creative output. The initial impetus of that first summit came from asking, "What does the science of performance look like? And how do you fill a room with people who think alternatively about these theories to discuss and advance ideas derived from but not yet proven by science?" Many scientific positions are old; the experiments were done years ago, and it takes time to peer-review, publish, and then apply the conclusions in the real world to demonstrate actual utility. Besides, "the science" often shuts down (public or common) inquiry by declaring definitive conclusions … which places a box around an idea thus defines the boundaries of future exploration. Traditionally, when it comes to scientific or casual inquiry, attention has focused on physical performance (in sport) because it is visible, but at the highest levels the bodies and capabilities are similar so why are some athletes or performers great? This drives some to examine the influence of cognitive ability on physical performance and oddly enough, as test and analytical capabilities have improved, we've seen that the top performers in E-Sports are making the fastest decisions on the planet under highest cognitive load. This psychological performance used to be invisible — it’s only in the last years that we could begin to observe it, and analyze it. If we agree that, "desire is the highest octane fuel that there is," the next question must be, "How do we quantify or measure or reproduce the desire that affects high performance in any arena?" This path of inquiry requires new eyes, new ideas, a conceptual openness disassociated from from the steps and positions previously taken or used. Michael and Hoby used a simple analogy in the conversation regarding the shift away from plastic bottles to contain and transport water towards aluminum cans, which are far more reusable and recyclable ... that's all well and good but also self-limiting. What’s the moonshot here? Instead of going from 1 to 1.1 we should be going from the plastic bottle to not needing a container or vessel at all … let’s return to 0 and discover a new and different solution. We must be more creative when seeking modern solutions to age-old understanding and the problems those conclusions caused; when you no longer have a hammer you must find a different way to drive the nail … or … you have to become the nail. Our physical experiences have led us to examine the influence of psychological ‘fitness’ on performance, learning, and exploration but it's clear that understanding the utility of fitness in the context of such inquiry is lacking. We use the process of developing fitness to teach people how to change behavior … if they learn to control a single aspect of their condition it opens them to the idea that there are other parts of life and behavior one might...

George Briones is a former Recon Marine (2007-2011) and Recon Instructor. He worked as the Director of Training and Programming at SOFLETE for eight years, holds a BASc in Sport Psychology and is currently studying to earn a MA in English language and literature. He coaches and educates a variety of athletes across a wide range of disciplines, from traditional strength and conditioning, and Olympic lifting to ultra endurance, combat sports, and preparation for military operational readiness, special selection and tactical competitions. He lived in Salt Lake City for several years during which time he trained and coached at NonProphet and became a dear, and trusted friend. George joined us for the Endurance is Love podcast, episode 175, which we recorded in March 2020 but didn't post until August 2021 and he was present for the late-May 2020 protests (mostly peaceful) that happened in SLC coincident with a NonProphet Symposium. Life has taken him to SoCal where he is the owner/operator of GB3 Athletics. George sat down with Michael to discuss the state of the "fitness industry", which of course, kicks the conversation off with a good critique ... or rant. They start by discussing the tendency for top level competitors — in this case BJJ but it applies to all sport — to focus solely on the competitive apex while letting the foundation slide, which leads to the concept of injury rehab as a powerful training factor, not only for peak performance but more importantly, longevity. George talks briefly about a 2010 deployment to Afghanistan, the difference between rules and principles, on-demand, on-the-ground adaptability and flexibility, and how sometimes, the solution to a perceived fitness problem is not gaining more strength but actually reducing the force or load being applied to the organism. The idea that (lack of) mobility is the limitation applies not only to soldiers moving across terrain but also in individual physical expression of strength or other fitness characteristics. It's a wonderful conversation wherein George presents his approach to training world champion level BJJ players, ultra-endurance athletes, and the seriously important concept of play in training because, if you're not having fun, you will compromise both intensity and volume and that could be the difference between a successful outcome or not. https://www.gb3athletics.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@gb3athletics/videos

We first released this podcast in September 2019. I've been thinking about reposting it since we ran into West and Kami Taylor at the Tactical Games in St. George where Erin and Cinnamon and Michael were competing. West was far more fit in March 2022 than when we first met, happier, vibrant, and spoke excitedly about his obsession with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and the nagging injuries that always come up when practicing hard. It was wonderful to see them and to be reminded of how they climbed up from bankruptcy, discovered an entirely new way of life, with very different values from those they had lived by or chased before market circumstances took away all of the material things they believed were the key to being happy. As dire as this loss sounds, as awful as it is to imagine starting life over at the age of 40, it's exactly what West and Kami did, and their story is an inspiration, incredibly motivating, and a valuable reminder that it is never, under any circumstances, over, until you choose to quit. If nothing else, hearing West's descriptions of installing early dial-up internet connections — where the quantity of phone lines limited simultaneous use to 96 people — is a fine example of how much has changed since the early-2000s, and how we take gigabyte level up and download speeds for granted. These days (as was the case in 2019) West and Kami train wild horses, having spent the last 13 years dedicated to the human-horse relationship and science-based horsemanship. In 2019 they took a few of the NonProphet crew out on an overnight, backcountry horse experience after which we invited them to drive up to record a conversation. They joined Mark, Michael, and Josh Tyler in the NonProphet podcast studio (known as the Dissect podcast studio back then) to talk about what it means to be wild but teachable, to start all over, and to thrive. His motto is, "Slow down faster to get done sooner," and I think we could use a heavy dose of that lesson when the world is racing all around us. https://wildwesttaylor.com

On April 26th, 2023 Blair and Mark sat down to discuss their recent visit to Alaska, the mountains there, their influence, and events and adventures tied to, inspired and caused by them. They discuss grave loss, life after it, the love that may arrive in its wake, and the rescues undertaken to prevent such loss. Blair shares her first night on a glacier and much to her chagrin, missing the Northern Lights (again).

Sam and I first visited on the podcast back in 2020, episode 134. We tried hard to find the truths we knew were present but couldn't quite get there. We didn't know each other well enough and they were turbulent times when we all felt some heavy emotional and cultural and moral stimulus but couldn't yet make sense of it. During the intervening years we both settled down a bit, or at least discovered ways to manage the stimulus without being overwhelmed into inaction (or too hasty action) by it. I believe we see and understand each other better now. On this occasion, Sam joined me the night before he drove away from Salt Lake City, towing a trailer towards his new home in Kentucky. It was worth making the drive down from Montana to see and speak with him one last time before the frequency of such conversations will drop as the geographic distance between us increases. Thematically, our conversation seemed to follow the arc of a young man into adulthood, passing through a long period of "angsty ambition" and "never enoughness", and how that hungry, thirsty, teeth-gnashing ambition, where commerce influenced behavior, and the need for superlative success was high delivered very little enjoyment. That said as the apogee of trying so hard has passed one may settle into a zone where success may be experienced without superlatives or broadcast, and one may express and experience mastery of skills and self apart from any audience or observation. We close out our visit talking about shooting; the relationship between it and climbing, the possible life or death moments in any movement or manipulation, the risk calculus, and the appreciation for, and of life itself that arrives when we understand that actions have actual consequences. Both activities may be tools for contemplation, lenses that focus appreciation for life and living it.