ASPI Podcast: Policy, Guns & Money

After more than five years, ASPI is saying goodbye to the Policy, Guns and Money podcast. With over 200 episodes featuring interviews with experts from around the world, we are pleased to have brought you discussions on so many important topics in security and foreign affairs and hope you have taken something away from our many interviews. The podcast has discussed defence capabilities and budgets, mis and disinformation, cyber and technology policy, Russia and Ukraine, climate, China, counterterrorism and extremism, peacekeeping and the Women, Peace and Security agenda. We’ve debated submarines and armoured vehicles, ransomware and AI, nuclear non-proliferation and how to counter issues such as foreign interference. We’ve also taken stock of Australia’s relationships across the globe, in the Pacific, Southeast and East Asia and with the United States and Europe - identifying opportunities and challenges and debating ideas for bilateral and multilateral collaboration. We’ve covered the Quad, including its elevation to leaders' level, AUKUS Pillar One and Two, and the importance of the United Nations and opportunities for reform. Thank you to all of our listeners and speakers, the many ambassadors, think tankers, current and former government officials, and voices from civil society and industry, there are too many great speakers to name. While we are saying goodbye to Policy, Guns and Money, stay tuned for ASPI’s new podcast, ‘Stop the World’, launching in the coming days. Follow the podcast on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and take a listen to the trailer here: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4HABcyghQUVyL3tdXqAtKR

This week, Dr Alex Caples speaks to Emily Harding from the Centre for Strategic and International Studies about offensive cyber operations and how to respond. They discuss how governments are integrating cyber operations with more traditional military planning, as well as responses to cyber-attacks, and how to deter in the cyber domain. With more than 2 billion people in over 70 countries expected to vote this year, 2024 has been dubbed the year of elections. To explore election related foreign interference and disinformation, David Wroe speaks to Chris Zappone, the Digital Foreign Editor for The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. They discuss the current state of the information environment, how it has evolved over time, and how social media and AI are being used to spread disinformation. Guests: Alex Caples: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/dr-alex-caples Emily Harding: https://www.csis.org/people/emily-harding David Wroe: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/david-wroe Chris Zappone: https://www.smh.com.au/by/chris-zappone-hve6u Music: "Young and Free" by Jonas Hipper, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

This week, David Wroe hosts a discussion on the latest from Myanmar, where the military regime that seized power in 2021 has recently enforced conscription amid plummeting military morale and steady pressure from armed resistance groups. ASPI’s Nathan Ruser and the Wilson Center’s Lucas Myers talk about how a range of opposition groups are making military gains, and where the civil conflict is likely to go in the coming months. ASPI senior analysts Blake Johnson and Euan Graham join David Wroe to discuss geopolitics in the Pacific and what to expect in 2024. They dissect the significance of Papua New Guinea Prime Minister James Marape’s recent visit to Canberra, Tuvalu’s election and Nauru’s switch of diplomatic recognition from Taiwan to China. Guests: David Wroe: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/david-wroe Nathan Ruser: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/nathan-ruser Lucas Myers: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/person/lucas-myers Euan Graham: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/euan-graham Blake Johnson: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/blake-johnson

In this special three-part episode: David Wroe speaks to economist, lawyer and author, Misha Zelinsky, about his new novel ‘The Sun Will Rise’, which is inspired by his experience covering Russia’s invasion of Ukraine for the Australian Financial Review. They discuss the overarching theme of the book and its characters, as well as the message Misha hopes people will take away from the book. They also discuss the latest developments in the war, the risk of war fatigue, and why democracies must continue to provide support to Ukraine. Next, Alex Bristow speaks to Dr Arzan Tarapore, South Asia research scholar at Stanford University’s Asia-Pacific Research Center and Senior Fellow at ASPI. They discuss the upcoming Quad Summit in India in 2024, the topics likely to be discussed, and how the diplomatic partnership has evolved over time. They also explore how the Quad complements existing minilateral partnerships, and whether the group should have a bigger focus on security. Finally, David Wroe speaks to Jennifer Parker, the Director of Defence Policy at the Australian National University's National Security College, and Dr Malcolm Davis, Senior Analyst in Defence Strategy and Capability at ASPI. They discuss Jennifer’s recent ASPI report ‘An Australian Maritime Strategy: Resourcing the Royal Australian Navy’ which calls for an urgent expansion of the Royal Australian Navy fleet to adequately protect Australia’s vast maritime interests. Mentioned in this episode: https://www.thesunwillrisebook.com/ https://www.aspi.org.au/report/australian-maritime-strategy Guests: David Wroe Misha Zelinsky Alex Bristow Dr Arzan Tarapore Jennifer Parker Dr Malcolm Davis Music: "Just Wondering" by Maarten Schellekens, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

In this special three-part episode: Alex Bristow speaks to Brigadier General Linell Letendre, the Dean of Faculty at the United States Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. They discuss the long-standing Australia-US cadet exchange programs and the importance of STEM in military education. They also discuss the repeal of the ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ policy in the US, and how the culture has changed in the Air Force. Linell also discusses her use of the #warfighterscholar handle on social media, including what it means and aims to do. Next, Daria Impiombato interviews Irene Fellin, the NATO Secretary General's Special Representative for Women, Peace and Security. They discuss the Women, Peace and Security agenda, its role in the online space, and NATO’s role in advancing the priorities of the agenda. They also explore the dangers that female activists face today, and offer advice to young women considering a career in the field. Finally, Daria speaks to Macarena Sáez, Executive Director of the Women’s Rights Division at Human Rights Watch. They discuss the connection between national security and human rights, as well as the current state of women's rights around the world. They also outline what Australia can do to promote women’s rights on the global stage, and explore how the erosion of women’s rights is often the first sign of a step towards authoritarianism. Mentioned in this episode: https://dppa.un.org/en/women-peace-and-security Guests: Alex Bristow Brigadier General Linell Letendre Daria Impiombato Irene Fellin Macarena Sáez Music: "Long Walk" by Ketsa, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

In today's episode: Following the recent AI Safety Summit hosted by British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, Bart Hogeveen speaks with the European Union's Senior Envoy for Digital to the United States Gerard de Graaf. They discuss the EU's approach to AI regulation and how it differs from the US and other governments. They also discuss which uses of AI the EU thinks should be limited or prohibited and why, as well as provide suggestions for Australia's efforts to regulate AI. Finally, Alex Caples, speaks to Australian Federal Police (AFP) Commander Helen Schneider. They discuss the AFP and Monash University initiative 'My Pictures Matter’, which uses artificial intelligence to help combat child exploitation. They also explore the importance of using an ethically sourced database to train the AI tool that is used in the project, as well as outline how people can get involved in the campaign and help end child exploitation in Australia and overseas. Mentioned in this episode: https://mypicturesmatter.org/ Guests: Bart Hogeveen Gerard de Graaf Alex Caples Helen Schneider Music: "Think Different" by Scott Holmes, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

What do Australia’s parliamentarians think about cybersecurity and critical technology? In this special episode, David Wroe speaks to ASPI Chair and former parliamentarian Gai Brodtmann about the landmark study she led which canvasses the views of parliamentarians on cyber security and critical technologies. They discuss the results of this ASPI study, including gaps in knowledge, differences of opinion and unexpected responses, and how policymakers can keep pace with technological developments that underpin all aspects of society, including areas such as health, infrastructure, defence and the economy. Mentioned in this episode: https://www.aspi.org.au/report/what-do-australias-parliamentarians-think-about-cybersecurity-and-critical-technology Guests: David Wroe: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/david-wroe Gai Brodtmann: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/ms-gai-brodtmann Music: "Righteous" by Ketsa, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

On this week’s episode, Justin Bassi speaks with Ian Hall, Professor of International Relations at Griffith University and a renowned India expert. Justin and Ian discuss the recent Ministerial Dialogue between Australia and India in New Delhi – which was was only the second 2+2 dialogue between the two countries’ foreign and defence ministers. They talk about the priority given to maritime security, the East and South China Seas, the Pacific and climate change. They also cover India’s stance on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the Middle East and India’s elections next year. Music: "Long Walk" by Ketsa, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

In a special episode this week, ASPI's Director of Defence Strategy Bec Shrimpton speaks to Australia's Defence Space Commander, Air Vice Marshal Catherine Roberts, and Assistant Secretary of Strategic Plans in Defence Space Command, Jacinta Carroll. Our guests detail the importance of the space domain and offer an update on the Defence Strategic Review and the role of space in Defence's integrated and focused force. They also discuss Defence Space Command's Joint Commercial Operation's announcement, as well as the role that industry plays in space in Australia and abroad.

Last week, Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese attended the Pacific Islands Forum Leaders' Meeting in Cook Islands, where he and the Prime Minister of Tuvalu announced a major new agreement – the Australia-Tuvalu Falepili Union. In this episode, David Wroe speaks with the ABC’s foreign affairs reporter Stephen Dziedzic about the significance of the agreement, its strategic importance to competition with Beijing, how the deal was done, and whether it can be replicated with other Pacific island nations. Shifting focus to Southeast Asia, the final interview from our Disruption and Deterrence series, which was recorded on the sidelines of ASPI’s major Defence conference earlier this year, focuses on the South China Sea. Euan Graham speaks with Ignacio Madriaga, Undersecretary for Strategic Assessment and Planning in the Philippines Department of National Defense. They discuss the challenges the Philippines faces from China in the South China Sea through four AIs – artificial islands, alternate interpretation of the rules-based order, aggressive interaction and ability to influence. Guests: David Wroe: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/david-wroe Stephen Dziedzic: https://www.abc.net.au/news/stephen-dziedzic/166934 Euan Graham: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/euan-graham Ignacio Madriaga

This week Australian prime minister Anthony Albanese travelled to China to meet with President Xi Jinping. Amongst the backdrop of warming relations between the two countries they represent, David Wroe speaks with ASPI executive director Justin Bass and new ASPI fellow Ami Bagia, who previously sat on the Biden-Harris Administration's National Security Council as the Director for Countering Foreign Malign Influence and Information Integrity within the Democracy and Human Rights Directorate. They speak about Australia's past and current relations with China, and the impact of official messaging. Daria Impiombato has a conversation with Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian, the China reporter at Axios, and author of the weekly Axios China Newsletter. They discuss Bethany's new book "Beijing Rules: How China Weaponized Its Economy to Confront the World" and explore Australia's role in the book. Mentioned in this episode: Beijing Rules: How China Weaponized Its Economy to Confront the World - https://www.bethanyallenebrahimian.com/ Guests: Justin Bassi: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/justin-bassi Ami Bagia Daria Impiombato: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/daria-impiombato Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian: https://www.axios.com/authors/baebrahimian Music: "Think Different" by Scott Holmes, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

This episode is all about AI, emerging technologies and China. Dr Alex Caples speaks to Simeon Gilding about his ASPI report ‘De-risking authoritarian AI: A balanced approach to protecting our digital ecosystems’. They discuss the risks of Chinese AI-enabled technologies, including through data theft, disruption and denial of services, and how nations should approach regulation of AI. David Wroe speaks to Dr Samantha Hoffman and Lilly Lee about the Metaverse and China. They discuss Beijing's approach to the Metaverse, as well as the potential national security risks associated with it and how these risks can be addressed. Mentioned in this episode: https://www.aspi.org.au/report/de-risking-authoritarian-ai Guests: Alex Caples: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/dr-alex-caples Simeon Gilding: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/simeon-gilding David Wroe: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/david-wroe Samantha Hoffman: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/samantha-hoffman Lilly Lee

With Australian Prime Minister Albanese in Washington DC this week, and set to visit Beijing shortly after, Justin Bassi speaks to CNAS’s Lisa Curtis and ORF’s Dr Raji Pillai Rajagopalan for a special episode of the ASPI podcast. They discuss the significance of the two visits, and how PM Albanese should approach the upcoming meetings with President Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping. They also explore regional security in the Indo-Pacific, with a focus on India’s foreign policy and what India’s longstanding policy of non-alignment looks like in practice, as well as the India-Canada rift and whether it will impact the India-US and India-Australia relationships. Looking ahead to 2024, Justin asks Raji and Lisa about upcoming elections in the United States and India, and their potential implications for security and stability in the Indo-Pacific. Guests: Justin Bassi: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/justin-bassi Lisa Curtis: https://www.cnas.org/people/lisa-curtis Raji Rajagopalan: https://www.orfonline.org/people-expert/rajeswari-pillai-rajagopalan/ Music: "Think Different" by Scott Holmes, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

This week it is all about Southeast Asia on the ASPI pod. To kick off, Gatra Priyandita speaks to Thomas Parks from The Asia Foundation about geopolitics in Southeast Asia. While there’s a lot of attention on the US-China rivalry and its implications for the region, Gatra and Tom focus on the different regional dynamics in Southeast Asia, including ASEAN, regional challenges and the relationships that countries like Australia and Japan have in the region and how they have changed. Zooming in on Indonesia, Gatra Priyandita speaks to Natalie Sambhi about Indonesian politics and foreign policy and Australia’s relationship with Indonesia. They discuss Indonesia’s vision for the world and how it aligns with Australia’s, the roles both countries can play in shaping international rules and norms and how to further strengthen the bilateral relationship, including through education. Guests: Gatra Priyandita: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/gatra-priyandita Thomas Parks: https://asiafoundation.org/people/thomas-parks/ Natalie Sambhi: https://www.ververesearch.org/our-team1 Music: "Righteous" by Ketsa, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

‘Hacking for Cash’ is a new ASPI podcast series exploring state sponsored campaigns of cyber espionage for commercial gain. Throughout the series we talk to experts who were close to the negotiations that led to a 2015 agreement between the United States and China to refrain from supporting and engaging in ‘hacking for cash’, as well as a G20 leaders’ commitment to stamp out cyber-enabled intellectual property (IP) theft. The series features conversations with cybersecurity experts on state-sponsored hackers and how they operate, and with industry leaders about risk and resilience. We also talk with IP experts about how the US and China protect trade secrets, and with national cybersecurity and counter-intelligence agencies about how companies and universities can protect their crown jewels. This week, Dr Gatra Priyandita speaks with Nadia Taggart, Chief Information Security Officer at Western Sydney University and Anna Aquilina, Chief Information Security Officer at the University of Technology Sydney. They discuss the issue of knowledge and research security and the risks of malign foreign interference and cyber espionage. They also explore the biggest threats and risks to universities, and how we can assure that critical and sensitive research data is protected from illegal access and theft. Mentioned in this episode: ASPI’s Critical Technologies Tracker: https://techtracker.aspi.org.au/ Music: "Lounge It" by Maarten Schellekens, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

In the third episode of our special series from the sidelines of the ASPI ‘Disruption and Deterrence’ conference, ASPI’s Alex Caples speaks to Sean Singleton, Partner & VP of Business Development at America’s Frontier Fund. They discuss innovation, challenges to government-industry collaboration on disruptive technologies and the origins and evolution of the US Defense Innovation Unit. Thanks for listening to the ASPI podcast. That’s all we have time for today, we’ll back with another episode soon. Guests: Alex Caples: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/dr-alex-caples Sean Singleton: https://americasfrontier.org/team/sean-singleton Music: "Vintage Beat" by Ketsa, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

In this special episode, recorded on the sidelines of ASPI’s annual conference ‘Disruption and Deterrence’, Bec Shrimpton speaks with Dr Brad Roberts. Brad has served as director for the Centre for Global Security Research, and as policy director of the Obama administration's Nuclear Posture Review. Bec and Brad talk about the meaning of deterrence, what has historically made for good and bad deterrence, and what Australia and its allies can do to improve deterrence going forward. Guests: Bec Shrimpton: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/bec-shrimpton Dr Brad Roberts: https://cgsr.llnl.gov/experts/fellows/brad_roberts Music: "Rodeo Drive" by Eazy, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

In this special episode, recorded on the sidelines of ASPI’s annual conference ‘Disruption and Deterrence’, David Wroe speaks with Kori Schake. As well as being Director of Foreign and Defense Policy at the American Enterprise Institute, Kori is a contributing writer for The Atlantic and a regular on the popular Deep State Radio podcast. David and Kori talk about the future of the international order, the state of American politics — from the perspective of a lapsed Republican — and Kori’s irrepressible optimism about the future of democracy and open economies. Guests: David Wroe: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/david-wroe Kori Schake: https://www.aei.org/profile/kori-schake/ Music: "Think Different" by Scott Holmes, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

This week, ASPI’s Executive Director, Justin Bassi speaks with Jason Healey, Senior Research Scholar at Columbia University’s School for International and Public Affairs specialising in cyber conflict, competition and cooperation. Jason wrote and edited the book ‘A Fierce Domain: Cyber Conflict, 1986-2012’ and has held a number of senior cyber security roles, including in the Pentagon, as a founding member of Joint Task Force - Computer Network Defense, and as Director for Cyber Infrastructure Protection in the White House from 2003-2005. Justin and Jason discuss the importance of understanding the implications of cyberspace on security and society and explain why cyber needs to be at the heart of national security. Guests: Justin Bassi: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/justin-bassi Jason Healey: https://www.sipa.columbia.edu/communities-connections/faculty/jason-healey Music: "Vintage Beat" by Ketsa, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk

As we fast approach ASPI’s 2023 conference on deterrence and disruption, this week’s podcast begins with a conversation between conference speakers Bec Shrimpton and Dr Ross Babbage about military, political and economic strategy. They discuss Dr Babbage’s new book ‘The Next Major War: Can the US and its Allies Win Against China?’ and the importance of net assessment to allied deterrence and defence strategy. Shifting to a more domestic focus, Dr John Coyne speaks to countering violent extremism expert Peta Lowe about terrorist prisoners and the controversial tools used to assess their risk of reoffending. They discuss how this risk assessment compares with other crimes such as child exploitation and extremely violent offences. Mentioned in this episode: ‘The Next Major War: Can the US and its Allies Win Against China?: https://www.cambriapress.com/pub.cfm?bid=966 ASPI 2023 Conference: Disruption and Deterrence: https://www.aspi.org.au/event/disruption-and-deterrence-2023-aspi-conference Guests (in order of appearance): Bec Shrimpton: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/bec-shrimpton Dr Ross Babbage: https://csbaonline.org/about/people/staff/ross-babbage Dr John Coyne: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/john-coyne Peta Lowe: https://www.phronesisconsultingandtraining.com.au/about Music: "Righteous" by Ketsa, licensed with permission from the Independent Music Licensing Collective - imlcollective.uk