The Former Lawyer Podcast

Sarah sees many clients who change careers within the law, like becoming in-house lawyers, but at the end of the day, they are still lawyers. When people think that switching to entertainment law will be a fun and exciting change, it’s important to step back and ask some more questions. Today’s podcast episode features a conversation with Jordan Nahmias. Jordan used to practice law as an entertainment lawyer and is now a coach and strategist in Toronto, Canada. He talks about his experience and his path out of law. Many people consider exploring this area when thinking about leaving the law. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/228

In today’s podcast episode, Sarah addresses a question that many people start asking themselves when the economy is unstable: Is now really the right time to consider leaving the law? Layoffs and challenging circumstances can add an added layer of stress and concern when it comes to changing industries and leaving your job. Sarah shares some thoughts and advice about these concerns and questions. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/227

In today’s podcast episode, Sarah chats with one of her one-on-one clients, Ann Marie Cowdrey. She has had a lot of experience working for regional and international law firms throughout her career. She hit a rough patch and thought it was time for a chance, so she started working with Sarah. Today, she’s sharing her experience in law and how she flipped things around. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/226

Many lawyers find themselves asking, “Am I depressed, or am I burnt out?” This comes up when they are thinking about leaving the law, and it’s not a new topic on the podcast. In the episode where Sarah spoke to Ilona Salmons, they did a deep dive into burnout and what it is. Mental health is a common topic brought up in the Former Lawyer community, and many lawyers deal with misery by intellectualizing things. Today, Sarah is revisiting this topic and sharing a few important thoughts. Sarah often talks about therapy on the podcast. It is extremely helpful if you feel burned out or depressed. Engage a qualified mental health therapist to work with. They can help you evaluate what’s going on in your mind in your life with some objectivity and clinical expertise. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/225

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah chats with Lynley Ogilvie about her career pivot. She left her job as a lawyer to become a landscape designer. The conversation was exciting, and her path was unique compared to other guests on the podcast. Lynley lives just outside of Washington, DC, and she has her own landscape design firm. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/224

Today’s podcast topic was sparked by a recent call for the Guided Track Sarah is facilitating this spring. This program is designed to assist lawyers in navigating their career paths and offers a safe space for self-reflection. It helps individuals determine if leaving the law is the right choice for them and guides them toward their next steps. The program fosters a close-knit community where participants can share their experiences, exchange ideas, and support each other through the process, providing a sense of camaraderie and accountability. The discussion centered around a common yet often unspoken experience of guilt when one doesn’t enjoy being a lawyer. This feeling of guilt can be pervasive, making one feel like they’re complaining, even when they perceive their situation to be better than others. Sarah has talked about this before on the podcast, so obviously, it’s a topic that comes up often and is important to re-address.

Today’s podcast episode focuses on what it’s like to work in law with chronic illnesses. Emily Whelden is a former lawyer who now works at Dixon Life Coaching, mostly with clients have ADHD and other chronic illnesses. Many podcast listeners have requested this conversation, and today it's happening. She is chatting with Sarah about her experience leaving the law and the subject of chronic illnesses. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/222

Lawyers expect to follow a perfectly laid-out path. It’s natural. When the next step in any journey isn’t clear, it feels like something is wrong. In today’s podcast episode, Sarah talks about moments when you feel like you’re having an existential crisis, but that doesn’t mean you are doing anything wrong. When you feel like you’re having an existential crisis, it might feel like you’re in a vacuum. If you want to join a group of like-minded individuals, join the Collab. Sarah created this group to make it easier to navigate the process and find community. It doesn’t mean you won’t still feel lost, but you’ll have others that understand what you’re going through. It’s normal to feel like you’re having an existential crisis when working through the process of leaving the law. You are not doing anything wrong, and you aren’t alone. Keep going and seek out some people to talk to. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/221

On today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with Adriana Paris. Adriana stopped practicing law after ten years and moved into a new role at a law firm. She is the director of professional development and legal recruiting for a regional law firm with about 100 lawyers. In addition, she has a coaching business on the side where she helps lawyers with personal productivity, which helps them create time and space for themselves. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/182

Today’s podcast episode brings back a previous guest to update listeners. Aliza Shatzman previously appeared to talk with Sarah about The Legal Accountability Project. She co-founded this project based on a nightmare clerkship scenario she faced and wanted to help lawyers find recourse if they find themselves in this situation. She is sharing where things are today and the initiatives they’ve made progress on in the last year. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/219

After leaving law, former lawyers follow many career paths depending on their interests and skills. Today’s podcast episode features a conversation with Ashley Carlisle, the Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) of HyperDraft. If you are considering marketing as an option after leaving the law, this podcast has some great information for you. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/218

Narcissism is a word that is often associated with lawyers for many reasons. On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is chatting with Kelcey Baker about the fact that many lawyers have relationships with narcissists. Narcissism is a topic that more people are discussing now, and part of the reason is that there is more awareness and understanding of what it is. This episode includes a conversation about those who have grown up in a narcissistic daily or had a romantic or platonic relationship with a narcissist and how that might set them up for a later experience of functioning in a narcissistic system, like a law firm. Narcissism plays a big role in the legal profession. Many individuals with narcissistic traits are drawn to the law and the legal system. This podcast has covered topics similar to this one in the past, like the episode about the signs of malignant narcissism in the legal profession and how to handle bullying in law firms. This pair has also worked together on an episode where you can hear more of Kelcey’s experience. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/217

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is chatting with her client, Kelcey Baker. Kelcey joined the Collab and participated in the Guided Track, so she has all kinds of wisdom and insight to share about her decision to become a lawyer and then her decision to stop practicing law. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/216

The theme of today’s podcast episode is the idea that just because you can doesn’t mean you should. This advice was a central point to a recent keynote talk Sarah did at The Authentic Lawyer Summit, and it’s important for anyone leaving the law, but also lawyers who want to stay in law forever. Sarah shared more about her background and how this advice applied to her life and has brought the topic to the podcast to share more with the listeners. Let’s dive in. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/215 Enrollment for the next Guided Track is open now. Learn more and reserve your spot.

Today’s podcast episode features Sarah’s conversation with Strawberry Nevill. After connecting through a mutual friend, Sarah invited Strawberry to come on to share their journey from working in public interest. This area of law has its own challenges and can be very hard to walk away from. Strawberry spent about 15 years in and around the legal field, including three years as a practicing lawyer, so let’s dive in and learn more about their journey. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/214 Enrollment for the next Guided Track is open now. Learn more and reserve your spot.

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is talking with a member of the Collab, Read. He shares his background story and how he decided that the Collab was the right fit for him while he was working to become a lawyer. He finished law school about two and a half years ago but was already having doubts about his future in law. Hear his story and how the Collab helped him discover other options. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/213

Today’s podcast episode features a client, Adrian Hern. She’s a member of the Collab and has also worked with Sarah one-on-one. You’ll get some insight into working with Sarah individually and how it’s structured. Plus, you get to hear from a client who has gone through these conversations and hear some first-hand experience and advice about navigating legal burnout. See show notes at formerlawyer.com/212

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job. Today, it’s time to dive into the fourth and final misery that comes with bullshit jobs, knowing that one is doing harm as a lawyer. Go back and catch up if you missed the first three in this series. The final misery covered in the book is the misery based on knowing that one is doing harm. The most obvious example of this as lawyers would be representing a person or entity, and they are asking you to do something that is itself harmful. While these situations may arise, people tend to be aware and can deal with the moral conflict.

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job, and today, it’s time to dive into the third misery that comes with bullshit jobs. The Misery of not feeling entitled to your misery as a lawyer. If you missed the first two, go back and catch up.

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions, so check out the others before and after this one. Graeber gives four reasons why having a bullshit job feels so miserable. Last week’s discussion was all about the first reason—ambiguity and forced pretense—catch up on that one first.