Combat Exclusion

Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussions of sexual harassment and sexual assault. Dr. Stephanie Bonnes joins us to discuss her research on women in the armed forces. She discusses the pervasive issues of sexual harassment and sexual assault within the military's ranks based on years of study.

CPT Jordan Kelly, Engineer Officer and 2018 West Point Grad, speaks about her experiences serving as a combat engineer in a recently integrated unit. As the only female officer in her unit, she often had to prove herself over and over. She offers her perspective on the new Army Combat Fitness Test, insight into what it means to be a dual military couple, and critiques of the Army senior leadership selection process. As she looks forward to a career in the military, CPT Kelly reflects on what the Army needs to do to improve and how she very well could be a part of being the change she wants to see. Glossary: NTC – National Training Center, located at Fort Irwin, CA. Units train here to certify they are prepared for combat operations. BEB – Engineer Battalion attached to a brigade combat team

This week we’re joined by SGM Fisher and CSM Blanchett to offer us a critical perspective from the backbone of the Army - our NCO Corps. Between the two of them, we have over 40 years of experience leading men and women. They offer critical wisdom and advice to our young leaders and empower us all to be the change we want to see in our Army.

Erin opens us about becoming one of the first “double tabbed” women in the US Army. Frequently the only woman in the room, Erin focused her energy on accomplishing the task ahead of her to achieve mission success across an array of challenges. She emphasizes that a mission-oriented mindset yields the best results, especially in the face of potential naysayers to gender integration. Her warrior mindset inspires us all to just “go straight for what you want.” “This Kind of War: The Classic Korean War” by T.R. Fehrenbach When Erin says, “we need them to be good right here” when speaking about cyberwarriors, she was air-typing, signaling that cyber warrior should possess high computer skills. Find Erin McShane’s oral history interview at West Point Center for Oral History: https://www.westpointcoh.org/interviews/i-want-that-soldier-on-my-team-adversity-perseverance-and-commitment

This week Hilary Thomas, a “double tabbed” Army Engineer Officer, shares her story from a motivated Cadet to a highly decorated Officer. She speaks about her intense purpose and passion in seeking out combat roles and inspires us to be deliberate in how we pursue those goals. She focused her energy on preparing herself for the job she wanted and trained accordingly. Her example reminds us that we can achieve our goals if we are disciplined and deliberate. Her mentorship transcends the uniform and compels us all to be the best version of ourselves, no matter where we’re starting out. Glossary: BSTB BEB Bat Boys: Ranger Battalion Soldiers are frequently referred to as “Bat Boys”

LTC Frederick joins us this week to offer his experiences serving in units where women were integrated at all echelons. He shares his experience deploying with a recently integrated unit prior to the combat policy being repealed, and illustrates how a positive command climate breeds excellence among our formations. As a Professor of Military Science at University of North Carolina Charlotte, he is inspiring the next generation of young leaders, and his example of creating an inclusive environment is one we can all emulate. He highlights the importance of surrounding yourself with quality leaders and building a diverse team.

**since recording, BG Kelly has changed positions. He is now the Commander of Fort Jackson** BG Kelly sits down with us to discuss his experiences across the years. One of the early pioneers of gender integration, BG Kelly placed women into positions that were coded for men. He speaks at length about making it personal and provides an important perspective about developing a diverse team. His message is one of hope and encouragement – develop a talented, diverse pool of individuals and those people will naturally matriculate through the system. He highlights the obstacles that exist must be removed to achieve this, and offers some key ways we can achieve greater retention of our junior officers.

Colleen Farrell, former Marine Captain, joins us to talk about her experiences on the Female Engagement Teams and her involvement in the lawsuit that led to the eventual repeal of the Combat Exclusion Policy. The grit and determination she and her Marines displayed in the face of a policy that kept them from accomplishing their mission downrange is unparalleled. She expertly outlines why the Combat Exclusion Policy impacted mission readiness and individual careers and illustrates why she felt compelled to join the lawsuit to repeal this policy. Moreover, she shows us that women offer different capabilities than men have that allows them to be an asset on the battlefield. Her testimony inspires us all to show personal courage to stand up for what feels right for an organization we care so deeply about. Two lawsuits were filed against the US Department of Defense, the ACLU lawsuit and the one Professor Coughlin worked on (NAME). The Department of Defense repealed the Ground Combat Exclusion Policy shortly after these cases were filed. The ACLU lawsuit is still on-going. Colleen is no longer involved in this case. Glossary: MOS: Military Occupational Specialty

University of Virginia Law Professor Anne Coughlin joins us this week to discuss the origins of the Molly Pitcher Project, a project that started in a law classroom and grew into real world change. She walks through how her and her students built out the legal foundations of the case as a classroom assignment. Her reflections on how her students committed themselves to litigating this case in real life, beyond the classroom, reminds us that we can effect change even as students. Her thoughtful consideration of how a potential lawsuit would impact women displays a true commitment to creating meaningful and needed change without losing sight of the people they were representing. Her and her students are an example to us all (especially to those first year law students like us) that sometimes when you think that someone should bring this case to court… that person is you. Read more about her and her team: https://www.law_.viriginia.edu/news/2011_fall/women_in_combat.htm https://www.law.virignia.edu/news/2013_spr/pitcher_update.htm https://www.law.virignia.edu/news/2013_spr/combat_exclusion_lifted.htm Read about the Army’s response to Dobbs: https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3077695/dod-official-no-changes-to-womens-essential-health-care/

This week a very special guest joins us! COL (R ) Mary Forbes, Johanna’s mom, joins us this week to talk about her 26 year long career in the Army and her lifelong commitment of service. She shares challenges and victories with candor and humor as she reflects on the things that taxed and toughened her. She highlights how the support of her leaders set the conditions she needed to be successful. She also spends time talking about life after the uniform, providing essential information about supporting our veterans. She offers a new tool for our tool kit when we face sexism and unprofessional behavior – keep it simple, know your worth, and hold your ground. Join us this week for stories from an “Old Grad” that resonate across the years. Find Mary Forbes’ oral history at West Point Center for Oral History https://www.westpointcoh.org/interviews/taxed-and-toughened-achieving-balance-in-a-dual-military-family Glossary: ADA: Air defense artillery TOC: Tactical operations center Title 10 - Regular Army Title 32 - National Guard

This week Kris Fuher shares her personal experiences as an early graduate of an integrated West Point. Kris has been a pioneer for gender integration. From her own service to the work, she does today in supporting as women through Ranger School, her name is frequently on the lips of anyone who is anyone in the gender integration arena. Mentioned multiple times in our discussions with other women on this podcast, Kris is a legend among us. Her relentless pursuit of creating a more inclusive Army has paid dividends for all servicemembers, but most especially servicewomen. She reminds us that “if we quit, they will win.” In an Army where winning matters, Kris challenges us all to “be better” in our pursuit of creating a more lethal fighting force. Find Kris Fuhr’s oral history at West Point Center for Oral History : https://www.westpointcoh.org/interviews/locking-shields-surviving-west-point-as-a-woman

BG (R) Halstead shares her experiences through the breadth and depth of her career. A woman who spent the majority of her career as a “first,” Becky is a true pioneer for gender integration. Not only did she break through glass ceilings herself, she took part in gender integration efforts that paved the way for the repeal of the combat exclusion policy. Her example reminds us all to never give up and to embrace challenges with humor. Becky is an author and a leader in her community. You can find her book, “24/7: The First Person You Must Lead Is You (Steadfast Leadership Series)” wherever books are sold. Her website is https://www.beckyhalstead.com/ where you can read more about her inspirational leadership speaking series.

COL (R) Ellen Haring joins us this week to discuss her deep commitment to gender integration. She speaks to both her own individual experiences and also the experiences of the first cohort of combat arms women, who she has studied at length through interviews over the past five years. Her perspective, steeped in research and evidence, compels all of us to be data driven in how we approach problem solving to make our Army more inclusive. A true leader among us, COL (R) Haring has dedicated her life to making the Army a place where women can succeed – join us in hearing her story.

As much as we hate to admit that Navy beat Army…History tells us that before the Army integrated its ground forces in combat, the Navy integrated the sky. Loree Draude was among the first female naval aviators to fly in combat and offers her experiences and wisdom as she reflects on a life of service to the nation. Her story shows us that the fight for gender inclusion is born on the backs of supportive and willing leaders who see potential and talent above all else. She is an author, a leader, and a mother. Find her book “She’s Just Another Navy Pilot,” wherever books are sold. Glossary: NFO: Naval Flight Officers NATOPS: Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization (NATOPS)

Just ten years ago, the potential repeal of the Combat Exclusion Policy painted headlines across the country; now, the first wave of "combat arms" women are facing a decisive point in their career, asking themselves – should I stay or should I go? This summer, join Chandler and Johanna as they interview the women and men on the frontlines of the US military's gender integration efforts over the last decade, illuminating the realities of its successes and failures. Whether a member of the military community, a loyal supporter, or a curious citizen interested in this policy decision's human impact and real outcomes – Combat Exclusion is for you.