The Future of Education

I’ll admit it. This was a pinch-me moment. Getting to interview Guy Raz—host of the top podcasts “How I Built This” and “Wow in the World” and one of the pioneers of podcasting? Count me in. This conversation went in a bunch of unexpected directions. And that’s what’s so fun about it. After all, podcasting is all about bringing audio back and turning learning into leisure. And the question Guy and his partner Mindy Thomas asked a while back was: Why not bring kids in on the fun? Guy shared how his studio, Tinkercast, is leveraging the medium to inspire and educate the next generation of problem solvers. We discussed the power of audio to capture curiosities and foster imagination, how Tinkercast is doing that in and out of the classroom, and how it can help re-engage students in building needed skills at a critical time. Enjoy! The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michael Horn: Welcome to The Future of Education, where we are dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their human potential, and live a life of purpose. To help us think about those topics today, I'm really thrilled we have Guy Raz, who is widely considered one of the pioneers of podcasting. Many of you are, I'm sure, familiar with his podcasts, whether it's, How I Built This, the kids science podcast, Wow in the World, TED Radio Hour, many more, we're going to get into all of that. Guy's also a bestselling author, and he's the co-founder of two media companies, including Built It Productions and the kids and family studio, Tinkercast, which we're going to talk about today on the show. Guy, just thank you so much for being here. I confess I'm fanboy-ing a little bit at the moment, but I'm just thrilled that you're here. Guy Raz: Michael, thank you for having me on and for being a fan. That's why I do what I do because, and we can talk about this a bit later, but every show, whether it's How I Built This, or Wow in the World, or The Great Creators, is I make it in the hopes that people get joy from it and value from it. So, when I meet somebody who says they're a fan, by all means, please. I mean, it means a lot to me, and I really love it and appreciate it, because most of the time, most of the week I am in this studio behind this microphone isolated from the world. I don't actually physically interact with people who are fans very often. So, thank you for saying that. Guy’s Journey to Podcasting Michael Horn: You generally get to ask the questions, so this is a little bit of a role reversal. But I want to start there on the personal side, where you just gave us that quick entry into... Because as I said, you host a lot of podcasts. I don't think I can keep count, I don't know if you can. But I'd love you just to tell your story, because I actually don't think a lot of people hear that around how you got your start in podcasting, the shows that you're hosting now, and selfishly how you stay on top of all the work it takes to do these podcasts so well with this level of excellence. Guy Raz: Yeah. I started in podcasting when it was a backwater, back in 2011. At the time, I was at NPR, I had been at NPR since the beginning of my career as a reporter at NPR. I was a reporter at CNN. Most of my early career I was a war correspondent. I covered the Iraq War, I covered Israel, Palestine. I was in Gaza, I was in the West Bank, I was in Tel Aviv, I was all over the Middle East. I covered the Iraq War and Macedonia and Pakistan. I mean, that was my life. I was in and out of war zones for most of my career. I covered the military and the Pentagon, which is for many people who know How I Built This and don't know my background would be strange to imagine, but that really was my life. I was living in hotels wearing bulletproof vests, I still have them, dodging bullets and explosions, and that was my life...

There are new solutions for work and learning, but are we, as a society, open to shifting from the familiar to seize these opportunities? I sat down with Ryan Stowers, Executive Director of the Charles Koch Foundation, to discuss openness in the sector. We lay down a definition for openness, look at shining examples of learning innovation, and consider the risk of holding to the status quo. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michael Horn: Welcome to the Future of Education. I'm Michael Horn, and you are joining us at the place where we are dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their human potential, and live a life of purpose. There are very few people that I know who exemplify that more than the Executive Director of the Charles Koch Foundation, Ryan Stowers. He's a man who's a friend and has offered a lot of wise advice over this journey for individuals of many organizations over the years. So, Ryan, great to see you. Thanks for being here on the Future of Education. Ryan Stowers: Thanks for having me, Michael, and thanks for all that you do. Defining Openness as a Key Principle Michael Horn: No, you bet. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while for many reasons. You all at the foundation have been working with so many entrepreneurs, educators, and employers, helping rethink, how we develop talent in this country so that all individuals can live into those ideals that I espoused up front. You know like purpose, and that businesses will also benefit in the process. So as a result, you get this bird's eye seat on all these cool journeys about how people are doing things differently from the way they've always done it. This will be the first of a series of conversations we'll get to have. I'll set the table because, over the past couple of months, I've gotten to explore a few of these principles with your grantees. The concept of mutual benefit with Scott Pulsifer of Western Governors University. And what I think you would call the broader dimensions of talents with Kathleen St. Louis Caliento of Cara Collective. I'm looking at your book that the Koch Foundation and Charles Koch Industries put out Principle Based Management. You have this other one in there called Openness - key principle. I'd love you to define what openness means to you and why it matters because it's one of those that I think on the surface, the word could mean lots of different things to lots of different people. And so it requires a little explanation. Ryan Stowers: Yeah, thanks, Michael. When I think about openness, I think the best way to define it is the free movement of ideas, resources, and people, and that generates knowledge, innovation, and opportunity. We think that's been critical to fueling progress in society, and we think it's going to continue to be important moving forward. So I think that's the best way to define it. Michael Horn: No, that's a good definition, and you couch it in that larger narrative of progress. In the context of learning and education and the workforce, what does openness sort of look like? Ryan Stowers: Yeah. And you and I have spent a lot of time on this. If you think of a system that right now, from my perspective, needs thoughtful consideration of openness, it's the work and learning ecosystem as we think of it. For so long, the focus has been on things like credit hours, seat time, and degrees, and it's not working. It's helping a select few get to the point where they can reach their potential, find purpose and meaning, and produce value for themselves and others in society. But for the most part, it's leaving millions behind, and it's setting a lot of people up for failure. So in this context, openness means, and you said this, you use the term rethink. Openness would lead us to consider that we haven't figured this out...

So many teens are addicted to phones and social media. How can parents and educators help kids thrive in a digital world with unwritten rules, uncertain effects, and endless changes? Devorah Heitner wrote her latest book, Growing Up in Public, to help adults better play that role. I sat down with her to discuss strategies for maximizing the benefits and mitigating the risks. We also talked about whether legislation around social media is a good idea and how all this technology should or shouldn’t be used in schools. As many of you know, this is a hot topic—an an important one. People have strong hot takes on both sides. Devorah takes a realistic and practical path into the conversation that I appreciated and enjoyed learning from. Michael Horn: Welcome to the Future of Education, where we are passionate about building a world in which all individuals can develop their full human potential and live a life of purpose. To help us do that today, we have the noted author Devorah Heitner, who is the author of the new book Growing Up in Public: Coming of Age in a Digital World. Not her first book, but this is a really important one and an important moment in time where we are starting to see both the negative and positive impacts of social media. Devorah, welcome to the Future of Education. I think no one does it better than you at helping articulate, really both sides of this complicated world into which our young people are entering. So first, thank you for writing the book and welcome. Devorah Heitner: Thank you. Yeah, I'm living in this world and talking to young people every day. And if anything, I think I started over a decade ago with slightly more technology, rose-colored glasses, and now I'm more like in bifocals, but that sort of befits my age, I guess. Michael Horn: No, I like it. I like it. I mean, as you mentioned, it's not your first book. You had Screenwise as well. Talk to me about your journey into this topic, and how you've progressed. I like that analogy from rose-tinted glasses to bifocals. But just tell the audience about your own journey into this. Devorah’s Journey to the Work Devorah Heitner: I was a college professor and very connected still to higher ed. But when I was teaching college, I had my students, I had written my master's paper on Sesame Street, and I taught classes on kids media culture, and I had my 18 to 22-year-old undergrads doing research about kids and media in the community. And they would interview third graders. In our case, I was teaching in an affluent suburb of Chicago, and I had kids interview my students, interview third graders in a working-class suburb and in their own, where the school was, which was Lake Forest in Illinois. So it was very different. What they got was that third graders are using tech in really interesting ways that were very different from their own use. And that was less than a generation. These kids could have been their siblings. A nine-year-old could be a sibling to an 18-year-old.They're certainly not a full generation apart. So that was eye-opening to me. Then I became a parent in 2009 and really witnessed a moral panic around smartphones, touch screens, tablets, and schools using tech more in k twelve and how's that going? Colleges deciding if they're going to ban cell phones in the classroom. All these conversations about, is tech killing our kids. Is it helping our kids? Is it doing both and trying to really understand what is the experience of being a young person and then an emerging adult with all of this and with growing up in public, I'm really curious about especially the pressures on young people's identities, like, how do you figure out who you are when so many people are looking at you? The benefits and drawbacks of social media The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michael Horn: Yeah, it's such an interesting question...

On our latest episode of Class Disrupted, I interviewed Diane Tavenner about why America’s approach to math class isn’t adding up. We analyzed the outcomes produced under the status quo, considered the current system’s alignment with workforce needs, and proposed a personalized approach to teaching each student the math that is meaningful for their path—and doesn’t privilege Calculus over things like data science and statistics, but also doesn’t strip opportunities away from those who are accelerating in their studies. As always, subscribers can listen to the episode, watch it, or read the transcript below. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michael Horn: Hey, Diane, how are you? Diane Tavenner: Well, I'm well, and I'm going to start with urgent priorities today. Do you have any recipes that use a lot of lemons? Michael Horn: Lemons, okay. Diane Tavenner: And it's not because we're going to make lemonade out of lemons today. It's literally after years of drought, with all the rain we've had, my lemon tree has gone insane, and I have now made curd and cakes and ice cream and ice cubes of juice. And I have run out of recipes and I still have hundreds of lemons. Michael Horn: Well, it sounds like you're in California. It sounds like you've had rain. It sounds like I remember why I miss California. And I will tell you, the only other two I will add to your list is preserved lemons for salads. And then, of course, there's an alcohol that you could make as well. But we won't go there today. Instead, we could think about all the ratios and all that stuff that goes into making it just right, because I know you've been wanting to talk about math and some of the things that you've been learning about how our school system thinks or perhaps doesn't think about math in relation to work. So I'd love you to start to unpack that. Status quo K-12 math pathways Diane Tavenner: Well, great, because it's much better that I talk about this with you than turn to the drink because math can make me feel like I want to do that sometimes. So I appreciate your willingness to have this conversation. And what is prompting it for me is, you know, I have thought about math for many years from sort of a K-12 educator perspective, but now I'm coming at it from this new direction where we're really thinking about careers and post secondary and what's getting me going on this topic is my observation of how important math is in careers and how that is really at odds with how people in K-12, I think, think about it. And so let me just lay something out and see if it makes sense to you, which is my experience in K -12 is there's a mindset there and it's a mindset among students and parents and teachers and counselors and kind of everyone who is in the system. We really focus on math almost exclusively in how it relates to college and specifically, like, how do I do what I need to do in math because it's a key to college admissions, essentially? And so the big thinking that ends up happening, especially in high schools, is if I can get all the way to calculus, it gives me a better chance of getting accepted to college. And an elite college at that, maybe into the major that I want. Taking the most challenging…if I can't get to college, taking the most challenging courses that I can in high school relative to what's offered, helps me get into college. Getting good enough grades in math helps in my GPA to get into college. Previously and maybe a little bit again now emerging, taking the SAT and the ACT and getting the best score I can helps me get into college. The point being, as you hear, it's all about getting into college. And as I think about my time in K-12, we almost were never talking about the value of the learning of the math. It was always this entry into college. Michael Horn: Yeah, it certainly matches up with my experience as...

Tutoring has been a favorite intervention among school systems looking to get their students back on track after the pandemic. But not all programs are created equal. Results have been uneven at best. I sat down with the Alan Safran and AJ Gutierrez of Saga Education, a nonprofit that has been supporting schools to get tutoring right since long before the pandemic. We discussed the evolution of their model, what it will take to weave tutoring into the fabric of schools, sustaining programs after federal COVID funds are depleted, and the role of AI in the future of tutoring. As always, subscribers can listen to the podcast, watch the video, or read the transcript below. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michael Horn: Welcome to the Future of Education. I'm Michael Horn, and you are joining the show where we are dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their human potential and live a life of purpose. And here to help us think about that are two co-founders of Saga Education. We have Alan Safran and AJ Gutierrez. Alan serves as the CEO and AJ is the Chief Policy and Public Affairs officer. But as we'll hear, Saga has been at this work of tutoring long before the pandemic made it a trendy topic. I remember meeting with both of them outside of Porter Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts. We had a great conversation about all the things that they were learning about how you do tutoring well, how you start to think about scale and a lot of the questions that were on their minds. So, Alan, AJ, great to see you. Thanks for coming back and educating me once more. Alan Safran: Yeah, great to see you again. AJ Gutierrez: Yeah, it's great to be here, too. And usually after meeting us for the first time, people don't want anything to do with us. So I'm actually surprised and excited to be here. Saga’s founding story Michael Horn: When you reached out, I was like, yes, I need an update. I want to know what's going on, but fill our audience in first. And Alan, I'll start with you. What's the founding story behind Saga Education? Because it has an interesting origin story that is perhaps not what most people think of when they think of tutoring. Alan Safran: We go back to Aristotle and Socrates thinking about individual tutorial, but a little more modern. I was Executive Director of the Match charter school in Boston. AJ was a 9th grader when I first met him at that school, and Mike Goldstein was the founder. And Mike had the idea, look, kids are coming to school like AJ and his classmates, many of them three years behind grade level. What do you do when you're a normal school with a normal schedule, with normal classrooms? You can't do it. A teacher, no matter how heroic, has a hard time differentiating in a class, say, at 9th grade, where there's an 8th grade differential between some kids coming in like six years beyond grade level and other kids coming in two years ahead. It's impossible. The burden we put on teachers. What the expectation is for teachers to reach grade level skills is impossible. So how do you structurally address that? So Mike had the idea, let's build a dorm in our building. Bingo. Let's recruit tutors from around the country, like Teach for America recruits teachers. Let's recruit tutors. He said, what I think of the idea, I thought it was crazy. But then we worked together. We started it in 2004 and within a few years we had a reputation. The US Department of Ed said we were in the top seven charter schools in the country. And the results for kids like AJ were remarkable. And my own story is I come from two public school teachers, so I long have had in my blood this desire to get justice for kids. It's a phrase not often used for teaching, but getting justice for kids whom the system has not provided enough for. For me, that's a big theme of my...

Where did you turn for help in deciding what you wanted to do when you grew up? For more and more students, CareerVillage.org, an online platform that connects high schoolers to advice from real-world professionals, is serving as a trusted guide in navigating their career paths. I sat down with the nonprofit’s founder, Jared Chung, to discuss how they are sourcing and delivering career advice; developing AI that enables the scale needed to address the massive need; and ensuring the reliability, transparency, and accessibility of their services through their growth and innovation. I was particularly struck by some of the intersections with the book I’m working on to help people find their next job, which you’ll be hearing more about in the coming weeks. As always, subscribers can listen or watch the conversation or read the transcript below. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time Topic 00:54. The story behind Career Village 03:48 Career Village’s scale and services 09:31 How end users engage with the platform 11:25 The AI Career Coach 16:44 User reactions of the new AI 18:59 Ensuring the quality and transparency of the AI, from source data to end product 26:18. Building access through scale and ensuring equity 29:36. The promise of the AI Career Coach and where to learn more Michael Horn: Welcome to the Future of Education. I'm Michael Horn, and you are joining us on the show where we are dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live a life of purpose. And part of that, of course, is really navigating the world and transitions from education into career and making sure that you're finding something that really helps you make progress, not just in the jobs that you hold, but in your life. And it's consistent with the purpose that you have. And to help us think about that, today we have Jared Chung. He is the founder and executive director of Careervillage.org, which we're about to hear a lot more about. So, Jared, welcome. It's great to see you. Jared Chung: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Michael Horn: I'm excited to learn about what you all are doing. I know you have a number of initiatives in AI and elsewhere that are very cutting-edge. But before we get into that, just level set us all what is Careervillage.org, and what's your founding story behind it? Jared Chung: Careervillage.org is a nonprofit organization based here in the United States that helps people prepare for careers. And we do that using technology. We do that using people, the power of people. And importantly, we do it at a very large scale. And the reason we focus on scale is that the scale of the need is massive. The number of people who need support, advice, guidance, and information to prepare for their first or next career move is nearly ubiquitous. So, we focus on scale. The origin story, I think that it's almost such a universal mission. Everybody finds in it something that speaks to a part of their lived experience or the communities that they're in. For me, I, as a young person, was very career-oriented because I cared about financial stability for myself, and for my family. When I was in education, I knew that I wanted to get a job after an education that was going to allow me to put food on the table. And that was pretty much my only calculus at that time. I got very lucky to have some people in my life who served as mentors for me to help me navigate my way into college, help me ask questions that I was able to get answered about careers and help me navigate my way in my first job. So, when I started my first job, I turned back and was mentoring and advising young people, volunteering with nonprofit organizations and youth development, and helping young people prepare for careers. So that's kind of what brought me into this work and just...

Ryan Craig joined me once again to talk about his new book Apprentice Nation—this time as a part of Class Disrupted with Diane Tavenner. As a school leader who for years led the charge for college-for-all but has changed her mind in recent years, Diane had lots of questions for Ryan about how K–12 educators should think about apprenticeships and alternative pathways for high school students. Given I’ve recently sent out a transcript of another conversation with Ryan, rather than produce the whole transcript from Diane and my conversation with him, below are some key excerpts from the conversation that I think are illuminating. And, as always, subscribers can watch the video or listen to the podcast. I’m also thrilled to offer my paid subscribers a chance to win a copy of Ryan’s book, Apprentice Nation! Five lucky paid subscribers will get a free copy just by entering your information here. I’ll notify you if you win. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time Topic 2:45 Defining apprenticeship 5:49 The current state of apprenticeship in the U.S. 8:25 The role of apprenticeship in an increasingly automated world 13:05 How K-12 educators can move away from the “college or bust” paradigm 16:22 Refuting claims that apprenticeship creates hierarchical post-secondary funnels 18:02 Reducing operational obstacles to accessing apprenticeship 28:33 Apprenticeship’s opponents 32:49 The lack of incentives for employers to develop apprenticeships 35:23 Achieving scale 37:20 Reasons for optimism 40:00 Book and show recommendations Diane Tavenner: Ryan, what you are sharing is I've spent the last 20 plus years in K-12 education in high schools, really for decades, focusing on ensuring all of our students were accepted to a four-year college. I thought that was the right thing to do and the thing that was going to lift them, especially serving mostly first-generation college-going students. And then what you described is what we started to see in our own data, that if they made it through [college], they were underemployed on the back end, they were carrying significant amounts of debt, and depending on what program or major they went into, it really mattered [for] what their prospects looked like outside. And many of these students don't have the social networks to gain the experience that you're talking about as being so valuable. And so I guess one of the questions I have as a recovering college-for-all K-12 educator is what do you think people like me should be doing right now in the high school space, particularly what are the top one or two things that we could do to start shifting in the right direction? Ryan Craig: Yeah, well, look, I think CTE and career discovery at the high school and even middle school level are a casualty of this sort of college-for-all mentality. We've really allowed it to wither on the vine. I did a piece a couple of months ago about the fact that the sort of AP honors industrial complex, with its higher GPA, college is the only pathway. You sort of have to take those courses and you have to take that path, which leaves no room for…CTE kind of withers on the vine in that case. But I get it right. If there aren't alternatives for your college, then what's the point of career discovery at the high school? So it is sort of a chicken or the egg problem. I'm very focused on how do we build out that post high school infrastructure of earn-and-learn pathways so we can kind of get to where we are in the UK now, which is, this last fall, for the first time, graduating high school students in the UK could look at the UCAS portal, which is kind of the common app of the UK, and see listed alongside all the university programs, all the apprenticeship options. It's in one portal, in one place, and they can look with their guidance counselor and they can say, “Okay, here are some real earn and learn...

Ryan Craig joined me once again to talk about his new book Apprentice Nation—this time as a part of Class Disrupted with Diane Tavenner. As a school leader who for years led the charge for college-for-all but has changed her mind in recent years, Diane had lots of questions for Ryan about how K–12 educators should think about apprenticeships and alternative pathways for high school students. Given I’ve recently sent out a transcript of another conversation with Ryan, rather than produce the whole transcript from Diane and my conversation with him, below are some key excerpts from the conversation that I think are illuminating. And, as always, subscribers can watch the video or listen to the podcast. I’m also thrilled to offer my paid subscribers a chance to win a copy of Ryan’s book, Apprentice Nation! Five lucky paid subscribers will get a free copy just by entering your information here. I’ll notify you if you win. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time Topic 2:45 Defining apprenticeship 5:49 The current state of apprenticeship in the U.S. 8:25 The role of apprenticeship in an increasingly automated world 13:05 How K-12 educators can move away from the “college or bust” paradigm 16:22 Refuting claims that apprenticeship creates hierarchical post-secondary funnels 18:02 Reducing operational obstacles to accessing apprenticeship 28:33 Apprenticeship’s opponents 32:49 The lack of incentives for employers to develop apprenticeships 35:23 Achieving scale 37:20 Reasons for optimism 40:00 Book and show recommendations Diane Tavenner: Ryan, what you are sharing is I've spent the last 20 plus years in K-12 education in high schools, really for decades, focusing on ensuring all of our students were accepted to a four-year college. I thought that was the right thing to do and the thing that was going to lift them, especially serving mostly first-generation college-going students. And then what you described is what we started to see in our own data, that if they made it through [college], they were underemployed on the back end, they were carrying significant amounts of debt, and depending on what program or major they went into, it really mattered [for] what their prospects looked like outside. And many of these students don't have the social networks to gain the experience that you're talking about as being so valuable. And so I guess one of the questions I have as a recovering college-for-all K-12 educator is what do you think people like me should be doing right now in the high school space, particularly what are the top one or two things that we could do to start shifting in the right direction? Ryan Craig: Yeah, well, look, I think CTE and career discovery at the high school and even middle school level are a casualty of this sort of college-for-all mentality. We've really allowed it to wither on the vine. I did a piece a couple of months ago about the fact that the sort of AP honors industrial complex, with its higher GPA, college is the only pathway. You sort of have to take those courses and you have to take that path, which leaves no room for…CTE kind of withers on the vine in that case. But I get it right. If there aren't alternatives for your college, then what's the point of career discovery at the high school? So it is sort of a chicken or the egg problem. I'm very focused on how do we build out that post high school infrastructure of earn-and-learn pathways so we can kind of get to where we are in the UK now, which is, this last fall, for the first time, graduating high school students in the UK could look at the UCAS portal, which is kind of the common app of the UK, and see listed alongside all the university programs, all the apprenticeship options. It's in one portal, in one place, and they can look with their guidance counselor and they can say, “Okay, here are some real earn and learn...

Diane Tavenner and I interviewed Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, a cognitive scientist, researcher, and author focused on intelligence, creativity, and human potential on our latest episode of Class Disrupted. This is the second time Scott’s appeared on one of my podcasts (see here with Ian Rowe). But this time we got to delve much deeper into Scott’s various interests and lines of work. Together we discussed the importance of placing all students—not just those who are in gifted or special education programs—at the center of their learning. Scott also brought nuance to popular concepts like growth mindset in education psychology, reflected on how the notion of intelligence became taboo, and illustrated the importance of seeing the middle way and other sides of issues. As always, subscribers can watch or listen to the conversation or read the transcript below. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time Topic 3:52 The importance of human-centered education 5:52 Defining self-actualization 7:45 Creating a “gifted education” for every student 12:38 Adding nuance in the application of “grit” and “growth mindset” 16:29 The role of context and implementation 20:58 Talent and Intelligence 26:49 The willingness to see nuance and have your mind changed 32:39 Media recommendations and the Amazing Dr. Scott Diane Tavenner: I missed you a lot last episode. It's good to have you back, and I appreciate that you continue to carry and balance a lot, so it's good to be here with you. Michael Horn: Yeah, it's good to be back in conversation with you. I was really sad to miss the last conversation for multiple reasons, but this conversation was one I was really excited to be in, and so I did not want to miss it. And it's also good to be back in a routine, because routines are important, but this conversation in particular, I think, is going to be really stimulating. Diane Tavenner: Yeah, routines are so important. One of the many things I learned from my undergraduate degree in psychology, which is in many ways the foundation for how I think about learning and teaching and education. And so today, I am equally excited for the conversation we're going to have with one of my favorite psychologists in the world, Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman. In addition to authoring nearly a dozen books and writing a really insightful and useful newsletter that I would recommend to everyone, he hosts the most popular psychology podcast called the Psychology Podcast, and he's the founder of the Center for Human Potential, which says a lot about who he is and what he believes in. And they offer courses and opportunities to learn self-actualization coaching, which is something I'm sure we'll get into in a few minutes, what that means and why it's important. I could go on and on about Scott's resume, but I want to actually get in and talk with him. So let me just say, what's important for me, beyond all of that, is just his care and focus on doing work that actually impacts people's lives and is meaningful and relevant, and in particular in schools and with young people. And so that is where we connected over a decade ago, I think, or somewhere around there. Diane Tavenner: And his work has deeply influenced me and my work. So super grateful to have him here. And I know, Michael, you feel equally strong. Michael Horn: Yeah. Well, Scott, I won't keep singing your praises too long, but I want to do a little bit more adulation, because among all the things that Diane just mentioned, I also appreciate how, in social media, you are able to strike a nuanced balance in a medium that does not appreciate nuance, and yet you're able to be popular still. And that's something we care about deeply in this conversation. Like Diane and I are always trying to find the nuance. We're always trying to find third ways between polarized viewpoints. And I know we're going to...

More and more parents are taking charge of their children’s education through homeschooling. Manisha Snoyer’s podcast and online homeschooling community, Teach Your Kids, is seeking to empower parents with the guidance, tools, and network they need to thrive as educators for their children. She joined the Future of Education to discuss her work, dispel misconceptions about homeschooling, and consider the future of this growing trend. I was intrigued to explore her observations that, through modularity, families can pull apart socialization, childcare, and the learning itself to make the benefits of homeschooling much more accessible. As always, subscribers can listen to the audio, watch the video, or read the transcript. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time Topic 1:16 Manisha’s journey into education 6:25 The value provided by Teach Your Kids 13:30 Dispelling misconceptions about homeshooling 15:57 Mastery learning in homeschooling 18:00 The future of homeschooling 20:09 Homeschooling and childcare 21:45 How to engage with Teach Your Kids Michael Horn: Welcome to the Future of Education, where we are dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live a life of purpose. And to help us think through that journey today we have Manisha Snoyer, who has worked with several thousand families and students providing teaching, tutoring, education and more. And she's the CEO and founder of Teach Your Kids, which is a podcast and online homeschooling community. And we're going to hear a lot more about that in just a moment. But its mission is to really change the way families engage in homeschooling and make the customization inherent in the choice to homeschool much more accessible to many, many more individuals. So, with that as prelude, Manisha, it's good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. Manisha Snoyer: It's so great to see you. I feel like we connected almost ten years ago and it's so wonderful to be having our first face-to-face conversation right here with everybody else. Michael Horn: I was thinking the same thing, and I would love you to just tell your own journey into education because as you mentioned, you and I met well before the pandemic. I remember very well when you were developing an earlier startup, Cottage Class which was on the bleeding edge, I think, of the microschool movement. But tell us in your words your own journey into education and homeschooling. Manisha Snoyer: I would be very happy to. And I was actually just thinking about this today because I know there are a lot of exercises around writing out your life purpose and your vision and mission for your life. But I really feel like I fell into this territory completely by accident and almost never chose it in a way. So, I was pounding the pavement as an actress in New York City in the early 2000s and needed a way to make a living. And everyone in my family is a teacher, so I kind of reluctantly became a tutor because that seemed like the easiest thing to do. And before long, not making an income in acting, I found that I had taught over 3,000 children in 18 subjects in every kind of learning environment you could imagine in three different countries. And so, including teaching at some of the most elite private schools in New York City, because I was also a substitute teacher and some of the, I guess you could say, worst public schools and everything in between, including I had a three-month stint as the music teacher at P.S. 29, which is one of the most wonderful public schools in Brooklyn. And after several years of doing this, I really started to feel deep in my soul that our education system was broken at every level, from these $60,000 a year schools to even the best of the best in the public education department, but with a lot of really amazing teachers...

Diane and I looked back on the past three episodes of Class Disrupted’s fifth season through the lens of disruption. We discussed the future of AI education tools; considered the opportunities and challenges as the Carnegie Foundation embarks on creating innovative new assessments with ETS; and highlighted how Americans’ ideas of a success are changing and what that means for schools. As always, subscribers can listen to the audio, watch the video below, or read the transcript. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time Topic 3:10 Designing useful AI education tools 4:40 The many jobs schools try to do 13:59 Potential impacts of Carnegie Foundation’s more holistic assessments 26:43 America’s changing definition of success 36.44 Book and TV recommendations Diane Tavenner: Hey, Michael. Michael Horn: Hey, Diane. I know you have had a hectic last few weeks, but I still have been excited to catch up with you as we say goodbye to 2023. That still doesn't sound right coming off the tongue. And I'm hoping that the pneumonia cases in China that are starting to be reported are not portending something worse for 2024. But here we are. Diane Tavenner: Oh, Michael. Pneumonia in China. I don't even know what you're talking about. I don't want to know what you're talking. Michael Horn: Don't look it up. Diane Tavenner: I've been heads down. Wow. That makes me realize that we started this podcast during the pandemic, sort of the beginning, the height of the pandemic, and I can't believe we're in our fifth season. And I kind of feel like we're starting to see some opportunities that haven't been there for the last few years. And so I really hope pneumonia is not on our way because our kids and our system and our country really need us to be rethinking how we're doing school. For us this season, to that end, we’ve just been talking to some really interesting people and people who we think are kind of pushing our thinking and everyone's thinking and the work forward. And so that's been amazing. But one of the things I'm realizing is I'm craving the opportunity for us to just talk and process and think about what they're saying. So I'm hoping that we can do that today. Michael Horn: A good plan. And hopefully our listeners are excited for the same because that's what we're going to do: use today's session to step back and think about the last three conversations that we've had with Todd Rose, Irhum, Shafkat, hopefully I pronounced that correctly, and Tim Knowles, so that we can reflect on a lot of the points that they made and how they stretched our thinking and how they might intersect with each other and, frankly, ask each other any questions that we have as we march into the new year. Diane Tavenner: Yeah, that just is crazy. And I always have a lot of questions. So I'm excited to talk with you about this. But one of the things I noticed, Michael, when I think back across the last three conversations is there is an undercurrent of disruption in all of those. It's maybe more than an undercurrent, quite frankly. And while I will acknowledge that people in education don't really like the word disruption, they don't like it in reference to schools and education. And I get that. But I think it's useful to say it here, because when I say disruption, I'm referring to the work that you study and you write about and you talk about, and quite frankly, a lot of the work that I have done in my career, because innovation doesn't come without disruption. Those two things sort of come hand in hand. And so I think we need to be mindful, but we also can't be afraid to talk about what is really happening and needed. Michael Horn: I want to return to that theme as we go through today, but let's start where you just left, which is afraid and fear, and I think a lot of fear is being sparked by AI. And so would love to dig into the...

Who are the “customers” of higher education—students or employers? Scott Pulsipher, President of Western Governors University, joined the Future of Education to give his take on this age-old question and discuss how colleges can achieve mutual benefit for both parties. Scott analyzed how the needs of students and employers overlap; the measures that matter to drive outcomes for both, and how to identify the skills of the future in a dynamic and fast-changing landscape. As always, subscribers can listen to the episode, watch the video, or read the transcript. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time. Topic 1:08. Ensuring mutual benefit of students and employers 6:11 Equipping students with the skills of the future 11:01 How skill identification differs across fields 15:16 Mutual benefit at WGU 19:31 Deep dive on student and employer outcomes 23:55 Communicating mutual benefit to other stakeholders Michael Horn: Delighted you're joining us to continue to explore how we can build a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live a life of purpose. And to help us do that today we have a special guest, Scott Pulsipher. He's the president of Western Governors University. For folks who've followed my work for a long time, you're probably sick of hearing of Western Governors University because I find them to be such a powerful example of disruptive innovation and competency-based learning to really make sure all learners succeed and master what they are trying to do so that they can get ahead in the workforce. So first, Scott, thanks for joining us. It's great to see you. Scott Pulsipher: Great to see you, too, Michael. It's always a privilege and a pleasure, and I certainly hope that your listeners aren't sick of hearing of WGU, but we hopefully are always providing something new and different to spur their own innovation and things that they can do to serve their students better than they currently are. Michael Horn: Well, amen to that. And they better not be sick of it, I suppose, because I'm not going to stop talking about it. So that's the other reason. But today I really want to explore this idea of mutual benefit with you. This concept that doing things that benefit others but also benefit yourself and finding these areas of overlap really actually strengthens both sides of the equation, if you will, and leads to more lasting value and progress for people. And the part of this that I want to explore is that Western Governors University, the original design wasn't just to have this incredible competency-based learning model for learners, but it was to make sure that what they were learning was aligned with what employers actually wanted. And so you all, as I recall back in the day, would have boards of employers in different sectors you worked, you'd bring them together, they would help you understand the skills and competencies required to do the different jobs, and then you all would design degree programs effectively around those competencies and make sure, of course, as I said, students are mastering the key ones. How has that work evolved over time? And how are you working specifically with employers now? Scott Pulsipher: Yeah, there is little doubt that the founders of WGU and we that are still carrying on that purpose are always trying to ensure that we're doing maybe two things. One is to help individuals change their lives for the better by helping them advance into the opportunity. But we're also wanting to ensure that those that are completing their credentials at WGU, that they are, in fact, ready for the roles and the work that is, in fact, defining the future of the sectors that we serve really well. And so to do that, actually, even, sorry… As a quick aside, that even became one of our core differentiating things is the quality and relevancy of...

Curt Ellis and Rob Harvey, Co-CEOs of FoodCorps, an AmeriCorps program that partners with schools and policymakers to build access to healthy school meals and food education, joined me discuss why good food is in fact central to the work of schools, how food education and meal choice build agency in students, and the debate on universal school meal assistance programs. As always, subscribers can listen to to the conversation, watch it below, or read the transcript. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time Topic 2:28 Curt’s journey to founding FoodCorps 4:43 Rob’s path to the work 9:07 Why food is central to the work of schools 15:13 How food can build agency in students 18:43 How FoodCorps works 22:34 The current state of food in schools Michael Horn: Delighted you're joining us on the show that is dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can fulfill their human potential, live a life of purpose, dig into their passions, and to help us think about that today, I'm incredibly excited to have two folks who run an organization called FoodCorps, which they're going to tell us more about. But one of them is one of my college friends, Curt Ellis, and the other is his co-CEO, Rob Harvey. So, first, without further ado, both of you welcome. It is great to see you. Rob Harvey: Thanks for having us, Michael. Michael Horn: So, Curt knows this, but those tuning in, this is incredibly exciting for me because obviously, I've been on my own journey and information gathering around the importance of nutrition as a key equation into wellness—not just health, but actually wellness and self actualization— but also in education because I think it's a critical ingredient. But I want you all to make that case for it. And let's just start at the very surface level so people can sort of ground themselves. What is FoodCorps and what are you doing with schools? Curt Ellis: Yeah. FoodCorps is a justice organization, a national nonprofit that works through a range of strategies to help schools become places where kids experience food as a daily source of health and power and joy. And we do that work through direct programming. We have a nationwide team of a couple hundred AmeriCorps members who are either working at the school level building school gardens, teaching hands on lessons about food with kids, or at the district level, where they're helping shift what's on school lunch trays to make that food more scratch-cooked, more locally sourced, more culturally affirming for the kids in that community. Then we do a lot of leadership development and power building work with our key constituents so that we can make a national movement that shifts policy at both the state and federal level. Because our dream is that by 2030, every child in this country should have access to food education, and to free, nourishing meals in school every day. Michael Horn: Anything you'd add, Rob? That's a pretty good sum there. Rob Harvey: Curt, great summary. Michael Horn: Terrific. Well, let's, let's dive into both your pathways there. And, Curt, I'll start with you just because you're the founder and I know that you left college and immediately jumped on this set of questions around our food sources more generally. Why don't you tell the audience about that and then how it led to you to founding FoodCorps? Curt Ellis: Sure. I got really interested in food as a prism where you peer into this thing and you see our nation's greatest challenges refracted. You see challenges of public health. You see racial and social injustice. You see environmental sustainability. Food really is at the center of so many of the things that matter. And I got excited about figuring out how I could contribute to what was, in the early two thousands, a kind of emergent debate around how we farm and how we feed ourselves in this country. So, with my...

Timothy Knowles, President of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, joins Diane and Michael to discuss how this historic foundation looks to drive the future of American education. On K–12, they discuss why Carnegie has partnered with ETS and why they are seeking to assess a broader array of skills—not just focus on the standards that are already assessed. They also dive into Carnegie’s push to undo the Carnegie Unit and move toward a competency-based system. Knowles also shares details on the Foundation’s efforts to prioritize social and economic mobility in higher ed by changing how they classify colleges and universities. As always, subscribers can listen, watch below, or read the transcript. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Time Topic 2:45. Background on the Carnegie Foundation 7:30 Tim’s journey to the work 10:19 Partnership with ETS to measure new education outcomes 24:35 Moving beyond the Carnegie unit toward a competency-based system 31:11 Classification of higher ed institutions 36:25 The Carnegie Postsecondary Commission Diane Tavenner: Hey Michael. Michael Horn: Hey Diane. Diane Tavenner: Well, we are fully in the holiday season at this point, and I'm super curious. A couple of clips away from the big part of COVID, are you noticing or experiencing anything different this year? Michael Horn: Oh, yes, we are. We are hosting constantly, it seems. We have had one of my kids’ entire class and all their friends over. We've had parties galore, and it seems like it's never going to stop. We're going to do it apparently straight through New Year's. So that feels like a big difference. As you know, we've been renovating our house. That's basically done. COVID basically done. Knock on wood that there's nothing else coming. And so there we are. And here we are in this, our fifth season, still working through some of the sticky issues in K-12 education, all the way into how it impacts higher education and lifelong learning, frankly, and trying to give people a different vantage point on how to think about these intractable—historically—issues. And I guess the last thing to say is, as listeners know, this year we're doing a lot more guests, a little less of Diane, Michael, a little bit more of people out there doing some really interesting work. And today you have invited a guest, Diane, who is doing a lot of interesting work. Diane Tavenner: That could not be more true, Michael. It is my great pleasure to have invited Tim Knowles here today to be with us. He's the president of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching and Learning. And as you know, I am really privileged to sit on the board of that foundation. And so I have a really front row seat to the ambitious agenda that the foundation is undertaking. So much of what Tim and the team are seeking to tackle relates to the topics that you and I have been talking about on all of these seasons here, on Class Disrupted. And so I just thought it would be really fun to go back and dig into some of those, like, seat time, competency-based learning, assessment, accountability, but through the lens of a really historic foundation that has a really ambitious, modern agenda and has had really profound impacts on our schools that I don't think most people realize or understand. And so I'm super excited for this conversation. Tim, welcome. Timothy Knowles: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Michael Horn: Yeah, well, we're incredibly excited. I was really thrilled when Diane told me she was going to extend the invite. And before we dive into the work that you're doing now that Diane just alluded to, I know that the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching and Learning has a long and pretty storied history. Can you tell us a little bit about the organization and why it has mattered to K-12 education in this...

AI expert and Minerva University senior Irhum Shafkat joins me and Diane Tavenner to discuss where AI has been, where it’s going, and the rate at which it’s moving. We also discuss the many forms the technology takes, its implications for humanity, and, of course, its applications in education—as told by a student. As always, subscribers can listen to the conversation, watch it, or read it below. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. 1:48—Introducing Irhum 3:54—Irhum’s Reflections on Minerva 7:03—Defining AI 11:16—Recent Iterations of AI 12:47—Intersection of AI and Humanity 17:24—The Pace of AI 21:43—AI from the Student Perspective 25:12—Thinking Beyond Chatbots 31:17—The Opportunity for Creating Education Tools using AI 40:10—Recommendations Diane Tavenner: Michael, you've just spent a week at the happiest place on Earth, and I must admit, I'm a little bit jealous. Michael Horn: For those who may be confused about what the happiest place on Earth is, it's Disney World. I was just there with my kids. First time for them. It was a blast. Diane, you know what? I came away with a few takeaways, but one of them was the excellence at scale. Disney has 74,000 employees in that park. And almost every single one of them - it's probably like 73,500 of them - are just dedicated to making your experience better than the last person you just interacted with. And it's astounding – however they have managed to do that. So it was a blast. Thank you for asking. But we're not here to talk about my vacation, although that might be fun. Instead, we're looking to continue to dive into some of these sticky questions around K-12 Education. Help people see different ways through what has often been pitted as zero-sum battles between the adults in the room and try to think through how we can unleash student progress and prepare them for the world into which they're entering. And obviously a question that exploded into both of our minds starting last year, Diane was the topic of AI. And, as opposed to the Metaverse, it is still the topic du jour. It is still what everyone is wondering about: artificial intelligence, what do we do with it, and so forth. And you have been teasing me that you have the perfect guest to help us think about this in some novel ways. Take it from here, Diane. Diane Tavenner: Well, I have indeed been doing that. You're right. AI so far has a longer shelf life. So we'll see how long that lasts. It's my great pleasure to introduce you to Irhum. And Irhum and I first met a few years ago when he was a freshman at Minerva University. He was coming from Bangladesh to that global university. He's now a senior. He spent the last two summers as an intern at Google X here, just about a mile away from where I live. And at Google X, he's really been focused on large language model, aka AI, research. And you've been hearing about Irhum from me and all of our conversations we've been having for quite some time, Michael. So, what you know is that I've learned a ton from him about AI. And one of the things I love about talking AI with Irhum is that even though he has a ton of knowledge, and, for example, he writes a popular technical blog about AI that I have looked at, and I can't even decipher a sentence of it. So, highly technical, deep knowledge. But he also is a system thinker, and he cares deeply about how technology is used, how AI is used, and what it means for our society. And so he's willing to and able to talk with people like me, lay people like me, and help me understand that and engage in a good conversation. And for our purposes, I think, most importantly, Irhum is 20, and it's so critical to be in dialogue with people in this generation. I think we give a lot of lip service in education to the consumers, if you will, or the students, and then we don't involve them in our dialogue. And so, I'm just...

Ryan Craig joined me to talk about his third book, Apprentice Nation: How the “Earn and Learn” Alternative to Higher Education Will Create a Stronger and Fairer America. In our conversation, Craig walked me through what it would take to move apprenticeship beyond the trades and into the broader American workforce. We compared the American apprenticeship system to those of other countries—with a deep dive on Germany, the UK, and Australia. And we discussed the roles of private companies, governments, and intermediary organizations in growing this centuries-old workforce development practice within the modern postsecondary ecosystem. As always, subscribers can listen to the conversation, watch it below, or read the transcript. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michael Horn: Welcome to the Future of Education, where we are dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their human potential, and live a life of purpose, something we are clearly not living up to today. And to help us unpack some of that and perhaps present a brighter picture of what the future could be is my longtime friend in the space, Ryan Craig. Ryan is the author of a new book, Apprentice Nation: How the Earn and Learn Alternative to Higher Education Will Create a Stronger and Fairer America. Ryan, first, it's good to see you. Welcome. Ryan Craig: Hey, good to see you. Michael Horn: Yeah, I love it because I’ve got your book right here on the shelf. It's not just collecting dust. It's actually prominently displayed. I'll leave it up there for folks as well so that they can see. But you wrote this great, entertaining book, but I'd love you to actually take a step back because people who don't know, you've obviously led a private equity firm in education, Achieve Partners, formerly University Ventures Fund, for years. I want to sort of get a sense of the plot also because in your book career, which is the other part of your identity - you have three books - you've gone from sort of the great unbundling of higher ed to faster and cheaper alternatives to higher ed. And now your latest book is the earn-and-learn alternative. So I'd love you to just sort of step back and take us through your own journey and arc to this point, like the problem that you're trying to solve for, why the iterations, and why landing at the moment with apprenticeships. Ryan Craig: This is the last book in the trilogy. So, this is the book where we defeat Sauron. Very excited for that. So, yeah, it's been a journey for sure. I started my career 25 years ago working for a hard charging Executive Vice Provost at Columbia University named Michael Crowe. And the effort there was to try to do innovative things online with the most traditional of universities. And I have gone from there to building large online universities and helping to build all sorts of innovative companies that partner with universities to help them do any number of things. But really sort of post Great Recession. Looking at the employment numbers that we were seeing for new graduates, recent graduates, just surprisingly stubborn underemployment, unemployment, and then obviously coupled with an affordability crisis that continues to this day to the point that the only major narrative in federal higher education policy over the last two and a half years has been loan forgiveness, which is a completely backwards looking policy, not forward looking. And so, I and my firm began to focus more and more on the employment side, moving to alternative pathways to employment: boot camps. And that was the sort of second book, A New You: Faster and Cheaper Alternatives to College. And that book is kind of a guided tour of these new alternative pathways to getting a good first job. And in that book, I talked a little bit about apprenticeship, but in the five years since, it's...

Todd Rose rejoined me and Diane Tavenner to talk about compelling new research findings on what Americans do and don't want from their schools, institutions and lives. Spoiler alert: They are rejecting fame, fortune and higher education as markers of success. Their focus instead is on community and financial security. Along with Diane, I enjoyed diving in to this conversation with Todd to explore what this might mean for schools. As always, subscribers can listen to the conversation, watch it below, or read the transcript. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Diane Tavenner: Hey, Michael. Michael Horn: Hey, Diane. Diane Tavenner: We got to spend a lot of time together last week in person, which is always so much fun, and on a panel together, which made me feel like we're at a good launching place to dive into some really meaty issues this season as we're back. Michael Horn: Indeed, and we raised a little havoc together, which is sort of our norm, if you will. When we started this podcast back in COVID, we really wanted to help parents and educators rethink some of the fundamental tenets of education as they were scrambling to do all forms of virtual and hybrid learning and then moving forward, really continue to question some of the holy grails of the education system and present some third ways through it. So, it continues to be interesting. And last week, with you in person, was a heck of a lot of fun to push the audience as well. Diane Tavenner: It really was. And we talk about this, but I kind of can't believe we're in our fifth season already, but super excited this season to be going back and talking about topics that really impact K-12, but not just K-12. I think we might do a little bit of expansion this year. We want to talk about schools that are reinventing and doing great, sort of innovative type of things, but we also want to get into some of the thorny issues, like we always do because we like to be a little bit provocative, but we want to bring our classic third way approach to those things. And we're also going to focus a lot on how K-12 sits in a bigger ecosystem. Our job is to prepare people for life. And so, what does that mean and how does that intersect with the world and work and college and more? Michael Horn: Yeah, well, you wrote an entire book, of course, about preparing people not just for school, but for actual life called Prepared. And so, in that theme, I think it fits right in with what we've sort of always been doing. But we're also planning, as folks know, to have a lot more guests this year. And to that end, longtime listeners may recall that in season one, in the height of the pandemic, we welcomed to the podcast early on, Todd Rose. And Todd helped introduce this framework of helping move the education system really from a zero-sum one to a positive sum one. Frankly, I ripped that off shamelessly, gave him credit, but ripped it off shamelessly in my book From Reopen to Reinvent. And then we followed it up last season, of course, by really dissecting the question of what is a meritocracy, what is the goal? And a big conclusion, I think we both came away with from those conversations was that the goal of the education system can't be the single destination point or a single metric. Individuals and their goals and their circumstances, they are way too varied for that sort of simplicity. And that's a good thing, actually. And one conclusion that came out of that was that this college for all goal that the system has really come to embrace over the previous few decades was not setting up large numbers of individuals for success. It wasn't helping them build their passions, fulfill their potential, live a life of purpose. But I've had a question out of that, which is we, you and I and maybe some of our listeners, may have concluded that this college for all goal doesn't make...

Back for Season 5, Michael and Diane catch up on their summers and book reading, Diane’s new entrepreneurial venture, PointB, the season ahead—and then offer some hot takes on the reading wars and Lucy Caulkins, four-year college-for-all, and education jargon. As always, subscribers can listen to the conversation, watch it at YouTube, or read the transcript below. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Diane Tavenner: Hey, Michael. Michael Horn: Hey, Diane. We are back. It's been a little while. Diane Tavenner: It's been more than a minute, for sure. It is really good to be here with you and in a little bit of a new space and new time. Michael Horn: Indeed, indeed. And we should say most people are accustomed, I think, at this point, to us starting at the beginning of the academic year, which traditionally, or not traditionally, unfortunately tends to happen end of August, early September. But, Diane, you have some big news, like, you're no longer on an academic calendar, so everyone knew you were stepping down from Summit after 20 years. Tell us what you're doing now as we enter this fifth season. Diane Tavenner: Well, Michael, I'm so glad to be back in conversation. I have missed it a lot, the rhythm of it. And what you're pointing out is this idea that for the first time in my entire life, I did not have a back to school experience. And I'll be honest, that has been an anchor point for me for my whole life. That sort of sets the schedule for the fall. So here we are. It's a little bit later, but I'm learning to be fluid with that time because I am not in schools anymore. I have co founded a new company called Point of Beginning, and we are working on a product called Point B, and it's a technology product that is really focused on helping students and right now, high school students. But I think eventually, potentially younger students figure out and this probably won't come as a shocker to a lot of people if you've been listening for a few years, figure out their purpose and what a pathway towards fulfillment will be post-high school. And while that can certainly be inclusive of four year college, we want to really focus on and expand the other possible pathways that exist for people, to help them, discover them, explore them, create their own vision for what that will look like, figure out how to make good choices, and then enact those pathways. And so we're about three months in about a week away from the first version of the product being tested by real people and in a real startup. Michael Horn: That's exciting, Diane. So I have a couple reflections, but before we have those, my Point B, like, how do people find it on the Web? Learn about what you're doing. I assume there's going to be some schools that are like, do we get to sign up so our students can use this? Diane Tavenner: Well, it's super early, but you can always reach out to me. You can find us on the Web at mypointb.org, and you can start to check out what's happening there. Sign up for updates if you're interested, and, of course, reach out to me. We want to talk with, work with anyone and everyone. And so if this is an area of interest or passion, I hope you will reach out and I hope we're going to get a lot of opportunities to sort of touch on these subjects that are so fascinating over the course of this season. Michael, because I do think this season's a little bit different. I think we're going to do some throwbacks to Season 1, but also a little bit different. So do you want to just talk a little bit about what's happening? I will say off the top, one of the things that's different is we will have video this year. I missed that memo. So you can see I didn't really dress up for you today, but I'll try to look better going forward. But what else is different? Michael Horn: Yeah, no, I'm glad you prompted us on that because folks...

Why don't career services work at colleges? For those in higher ed, the answers are often well known, but for those who don't work in higher ed—particularly students and families—they just assume a college's career services should… help them get a job. Yet these offices aren't all that good at doing so for the most part. My guests, Mike Goldstein and Geordie Brackin, explain why—and add a few reasons to the list that other researchers haven't pointed to before. And then they suggest a way to move forward, which departs from the solutions most people have offered to fixing career services. Their solution revolves around some real talk—being honest about where a student's experience will or won't help them out—and to understand deeply a student's circumstances, struggle to get a job, and desire for progress so that a mentor can help them make progress. Subscribers can check out our conversation to help unlock far more people's potential by listening to the podcast, watching the YouTube video, or reading the transcript. The Future of Education is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michael Horn: Welcome to the Future of Education, where we are dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their human potential, and live a life of purpose that's far from what we have today, needless to say. And it's a critical reason why my guest in today's show argue that if we're just not being truthful, frankly, to first-gen students, particularly as they enroll in college, about what it takes to really enter into a productive career. And they are highly critical of the career services offices at a lot of colleges. And they suggest some ways that they would do it differently that don't necessarily match with what a lot of the research has been. And it's a super intriguing set of findings that they have. And they are the founders of a really intriguing organization called 1Up Career Coaching. And we have today with us none other than the director of 1Up Career Coaching, Geordie Brackin, who's a co founder of it as well, and then the other co founder who's now also an advisor to 1Up Career Coaching and a serial entrepreneur in the education space, my friend Mike Goldstein. Mike, Geordie, it is great to see you both. Geordie Brackin: Thanks, Michael. Michael Horn: So you all have this fascinating new report and we'll get into what 1Up itself is in a moment. But this report that you've put out and the title is called peeling the “College Career Services Office Onion: Why They Are Terrible and What to Do About It.” And then you have this asterisk where you say that they're terrible for any college student with low social capital, particularly first-gen students. So that's the framing that you have come into this. And Geordie, before we dig into this report now, tell us what 1Up Career Coaching is and how you're coming into the conversation. And then, Mike, I'll ask you a similar question. Mike Goldstein: Sure. Geordie Brackin: So we come to the conversation from the question of social mobility. So 1Up Career Coaching is a small nonprofit that does two things. We do direct coaching for first generation college graduates who are stuck in their job search. They've landed a job, but they're unhappy in that job, and we provide direct coaching to those people to help them find better jobs that pay more and that make them much happier. And then second, we try and publish the lessons that we've learned through that direct coaching. Michael Horn: Now, Mike, tell us, of course, how you came to this work. You've obviously, as I mentioned, up top, been a serial entrepreneur in the world of education. You founded match charter schools, for example. You've had a number of interesting roles in a lot of interesting organizations internationally as well. What was the question that puzzled you that caused you to found this...

For over 30 years, Cara Collective has worked directly with individuals experiencing a number of barriers to employment work through their challenges, invest in their development, and get great jobs. They've also worked with employers to help them rethink their hiring procedures so that they don't miss hidden gems in their communities for any number of reasons. In this conversation, Kathleen St. Louis Caliento, the president and CEO of Cara Collective, shares her personal story to this role, the work of Cara Collective, and the stunning success they've had for over 8,000 individuals in helping place them not just in 13,000 jobs, but in jobs where they are more likely to persist and do work that matches their own sense of purpose. We explore what they've learned, how they've sharpened their process, their outcomes, and more. As always, subscribers can listen to the episode, watch it below, or read the transcript. Michael Horn: Welcome to the Future of Education, the show where we are dedicated to building a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their human potential, and live a life of purpose. And to help us advance that, today we have a great guest, Kathleen St. Louis Caliento. She's the president and CEO of Cara Collective, where she's been since 2021. She and I got to be on a panel together at the ASU-GSV Innovation Summit around the future of learning and work. And Kathleen, it is great to have you here. Great to see you. Kathleen St. Louis Caliento: It's so great to see you again, Michael. Thanks so much for having me. Michael: Yeah, you bet. So first, let's dive in. Tell me about the work that you do that CARA Collective does. How do you describe what the organization itself is? Kathleen: Absolutely. What I like to say is CARA Collective is an organization that helps people find themselves and then find jobs. We are a Chicago-based workforce development organization with a national footprint. And we have served over 8,000 individuals in helping to place them in 13,000 jobs. We understand the barriers, the particular barriers that many of our participants face, homelessness, poverty, health, child care, formerly incarcerated. And those are the barriers that often, unfortunately, keep them from employment. At the same time, we know that they are incredibly talented, and they have either found us because of a misstep, misfortune, or injustice, as we know prevails, unfortunately, in our society. And so the goal really is to figure out a way to help them, as I said, find themselves and find jobs. So Cara Collective is really comprised of four entities in the way that we do that. The first is Cara, which is our personal and professional training program. That's where we provide these workplace competencies to help them prepare for jobs. But also what's sometimes even harder is those social-emotional competencies, right? So we have workshops that are called Love and Forgiveness, and helping people truly understand what it means to rid themselves of some of the baggage, some of the myths, some of the narratives that they've been told their entire lives. And so those are the things that those personal and professional training workshops that truly help them get prepared for the workspace. As part of that, we provide these supportive services because, again, as we know, our folks are facing significant barriers to employment. And so connecting them to resources that help them address housing, homelessness, their health care, child care, if they have record expungements that need to take place as well. So those are the things that we're helping them with in terms of background services. Then we have two social enterprises because we recognize the need for some of our participants to truly begin to build their resumes back up. And some of them had significant gaps in their work history or facing particular records and backgrounds that were not being taken on by some employers. And so giving them...