Haystacks & Hell

Support the Show • Santiago shares some personal news, updates on the future of the show, and listener stories. Resources / Topics Mentioned: Slate: Why Do We Give Our Pets Death With Dignity but Not Ourselves? S1:E2 - Do You Believe in an Afterlife? More Listener Stories Podcast Resources Book Resources Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Andres Pichinte (They/Them), a Gen Z ex-Adventist who went from fundamentalist Adventism and going door to door for two summers with Youth Rush, to exploring esotericism and now Orthodox Christianity. We discussed the sales tactics used by Youth Rush, the books they sold and beliefs they encountered, misadventures in door-to-door evangelism, and more. Resources / Topics Mentioned: Andres' Website & Bio Youth Rush Article - Spectrum Magazine 00:00 - Haystacks & Hell Intro 00:34 - Youth Rush Canvassing Sales Tactics 06:49 - Books and Beliefs 20:58 - Misadventures in Door-to-Door Evangelism 25:39 - From Fast Food to Film School 32:04 - Embracing Diversity and Finding Acceptance 37:28 - Exploring Orthodoxy 46:06 - Closing Thoughts 48:12 - Haystacks & Hell Outro Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Santiago interviews Andres Pichinte (They/Them), a Gen Z ex-Adventist who went from fundamentalist Adventism and going door to door for Youth Rush (for two summers), to exploring esotericism and now Orthodox Christianity. We talk about growing up Adventist, being surrounded by conspiracy theories, and moments that made them question their Adventist faith. Resources / Topics Mentioned: Andres' Website & Bio The Hairbrush Song - Silly Songs with Larry His Cheeseburger - Love Songs with Mr. Lunt Youth Rush Article - Spectrum Magazine Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — 3rd and final part of Santiago's interview with Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. After escaping her abusive home, Charli discovered she didn't have proof of her U.S. citizenship, so she had to get a green card and worried about possibly being deported. We also discussed her journey of healing and leaving the faith she grew up in. Charli's Links: TikTok @charli.hayes Instagram @charlihayes_ YouTube @charlihayes_ Resources / Topics Mentioned: Maskrosbarn ("Dandelion Child") Mental Health and Therapist Resources Support for Victims of Abuse: RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline The Hotline - National Domestic Violence Hotline Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. She was adopted from Russia and brought to the U.S. as a baby by an Adventist couple. Growing up, Charli experienced horrific things at home. The police and Child Protective Services investigated, but nothing happened, so she ran away from home at 18. She now has over 500k people on TikTok who have been following her life story. Charli's Links: TikTok @charli.hayes Instagram @charlihayes_ YouTube @charlihayes_ Resources / Topics Mentioned: Little Duck Diner - Savannah, GA Hostel in the Forest - Brunswick, GA Hostelworld - Find hostels around the world Support for Victims of Abuse: RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline The Hotline - National Domestic Violence Hotline Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Santiago interviews Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. She was adopted from Russia and brought to the U.S. as a baby by an Adventist couple. Growing up, Charli experienced emotional, physical, and sexual abuse at home. The police and Child Protective Services investigated, but nothing happened, so she ran away from home at 18. She now has over 500k people on TikTok who have been following her life story. Charli's Links: TikTok @charli.hayes Instagram @charlihayes_ YouTube @charlihayes_ Resources / Topics Mentioned: VeggieTales - Jericho Slushies Battle (Genocide) of Jericho - Wikipedia IBLP - Wikipeda Shiny Happy People: Duggar Family Secrets Alisa Williams' Thread on SDAs & Shiny Happy People Katie Morton - Licensed Therapist, YouTuber Religious Trauma-informed Therapists & Other Resources Support for Victims of Abuse: RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline The Hotline - National Domestic Violence Hotline Kati Morton Videos: Abuse Topic Playlist Sexual Abuse: How do we recover & how long does it take? What is Consent, Assault & Harassment? What's considered sexual abuse? Struggling with childhood sexual abuse? Healing from Sexual Abuse & Incest Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Santiago and Saoirse discuss their very different childhood experiences with Halloween and read some stories from the ex-Adventist subreddit. Abby, Ami, and friends talk around a bonfire (bone fire?) about their experiences with Halloween. That last part of the episode is a little loud, but there's some fun stuff if you're patient. Topics Mentioned: Scared Straight | Hell House - How Gay Thou Art Podcast The Addams Family - Wikipedia Wednesday (Netflix Show) The Addams Family (1991 Film) Addams Family Values (1993 Film) Beetlejuice (1988 Film) Killer Klowns From Outer Space (1988 Film) Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Part 2 of 2: Santiago interviews Will James, an ex-Adventist husband, dad, lawyer, and TikToker based in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. We discuss writing wills for SDA church members, Will's deconstruction from Adventism, telling his parents, and navigating his own parental responsibilities after deconstructing at just the right moment. Topics Mentioned: Will's Law Practice Website Will's TikTok (@will.i.jam) Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher Iyanla Vanzant "The past is present" Rachel Held Evans (Author) Peter Ennes (Author) Non-binary Gender Singular They Left-handedness Other Episodes Mentioned: Melissa Duge Spiers Interview (S1E10 - Part 1) Melissa Duge Spiers Interview (S1E11 - Part 2) Matthew Vollmer Interview (S1E16 - Part 1) Matthew Vollmer Interview (S1E17 - Part 2) Race, Slavery, and Racism in Christianity and Adventism (S1E19) The Amalgamation of Man and Beast!? (S1E20) Adventist Estate Stories: Bahamian Family Alleges $30 Million Fraud Involving 3ABN SDA Church Stealing Estates Grandma’s money went to 3ABN Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show — Part 1 of 2: Santiago interviews Will James, an ex-Adventist husband, dad, lawyer, and TikToker based in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. We discuss his parents' conversion to Adventism (along with 30 of their friends?!) when he was two years old. Will grew up with a very literal interpretation of the Bible and Ellen White's writings, and eventually deconstructed everything. — Topics Mentioned: Will's TikTok (@will.i.jam) Oh No, Ross and Carrie - Amazing Facts Series David Steward Amazing Facts Profile Will's Blog - Broken Plates and Baptisms Inception (Movie) Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — Santiago interviews Morgan Clae, an ex-Adventist director, producer, and singer-songwriter based in Los Angeles. We discuss purity culture, her time at Walla Walla University, being a student missionary, deconstruction, and becoming agnostic. We also explore the meaning behind the lyrics of Wilder Things, Morgan's song on deconstruction and coming out. Morgan's Links: Morgan Clae Linktree YouTube Spotify TikTok Morgan's Music Mentioned: Stay (Music Video) Wilder Things 26 Resources & Topics Mentioned: Born Again Again Podcast exAdventist Subreddit The Greatest Showman Jesus and John Wayne Conservatives are upset their kids don’t want to spend Christmas with them Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — Santiago interviews Erika Miller, an ex-SDA teacher, mom, and survivor of abuse. As a young child, Erika was abused by a deacon's son at her home church. She shares her amazing story of resilience, attending Newbold College in the UK, and eventually leaving the Adventist church. Resources Mentioned: Erika's email: swimlass [at] gmail.com Therapists and Mental Health Resources Unbelievable - Netflix Show The Netflix show linked above is not about Erika's story, but it's linked here as we briefly discussed Erika’s desire to go into law (timecode 44:32). She was discouraged by her parents, who said the legal profession isn't suitable for a Christian woman. I mentioned the show because it’s based on a true story of a serial r*pist who got away with his crimes in part by committing them in different cities or counties, and the police departments didn’t share any information with each other. The show centers on a woman who was the most recent victim and spoke to the police, but the two male detectives who questioned her didn’t believe her and ultimately gaslit her into recanting her testimony. It wasn’t until a female detective began noticing a pattern and believed the victim that they finally were able to put the pieces together and catch the r*pist. The show is relevant because it illustrates how discouraging women from entering certain professions has put us at a disadvantage, and why listening to victims is incredibly important. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/S2E1 — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — For the final episode of Season 1, Santiago does a deep dive on the "amalgamation" quotes. Abby and Ami talk about bigotry in the Seventh-Day Adventist church and particularly in the southern United States culture of the church. The conversation covers racism, homophobia, dating, trans issues, segregated conferences, and "the amalgamation of man and beast." Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes Sources Mentioned: 2021 Poll: 94% of Americans Approve of Interracial Marriage "Base Crime" Definition from 1858 Dictionary Racist book from 1867: The Negro, what is his ethnological status? Uriah Smith's Defense of Ellen White's Amalgamation Quotes James White promoting Uriah Smith's Book Adventist Responses: Adventist Today - Was Ellen White an Infallible Theologian? Dr. Benjamin Baker - Ellen White on Amalgamation Terrie Aamodt (59:00), Benjamin Baker (1:32:30) on Amalgamation Ellen White Estate - Amalgamation by Francis D. Nichol Tunkhannock SDA Church on Amalgamation — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — Santiago covers a brief history of race, slavery, and racism in the context of Christianity and Adventism. We look at the Bible, Ellen White's writings, and the history of how the Adventist church created a segregated conference system in the United States. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes Race, Pseudoscience, and Science Adam Hochman - Is ‘race’ modern? Gregory Slack - The Medieval Origins of 'Race' Historical origins of racial classification Limpieza de sangre Scientific Racism National Academies - Stop using race Did Evolutionary Theory Cause Genocide? Charles Darwin on Racism, Slavery, and Eugenics Racism within Christianity and Adventism Christian views on slavery Christian abolitionism 'The Curse of Ham': Slavery and the Old Testament German and Austrian churches apologize for Holocaust actions Adventism’s White Supremacy Why are there Regional Conferences? Protest & Progress Speech - Dr. Calvin B. Rock A House on Fire Panel Discussion ​James Kemuel Humphrey Byard, Lucille (1877–1943) Reparations Reparations for slavery in the United States The Truth Behind ’40 Acres and a Mule’ Forty acres and a mule Ellen White on Reparations Recommended Reading A House on Fire Protest & Progress Seventh-day Adventists and the Civil Rights Movement How to Be an Antiracist How to Raise an Antiracist How to Be a (Young) Antiracist Antiracist Baby — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — Santiago interviews Cherie Marie, a body image coach, BodyBarre instructor, and former 4th generation Adventist who grew up in California, Ohio, and Berrien Springs, Michigan. We discuss food, purity culture, and much more including overcoming challenges with food and body image. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes Cherie's Info: To claim a 90-minute session with Cherie, send her a Direct Message on Instagram and mention the promo code "Hell" Instagram - alchemy1.0 TikTok - cheriemaried Other topics mentioned: Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking Eve Was Framed - Instagram Gabor Maté - Wikipedia Sex and Sensibility — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Matthew Vollmer, an ex-Adventist writer and English professor at Virginia Tech who just so happens to be the nephew of Ted Wilson, the current President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes Matthew's Links: Book - All of Us Together in the End Essay - This I Believed Essay - The Man With Two Heads Website / Bio Books Mentioned: The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are - Alan Watts The Denial of Death - Ernest Becker Other Topics Mentioned: TikTok - Rachel Klinger Cain The Road Not Taken - Robert Frost The Architecture of Doom — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon — Santiago interviews Matthew Vollmer, an ex-Adventist writer and English professor at Virginia Tech who just so happens to be the nephew of Ted Wilson, the current President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes Matthew's Links: Book - All of Us Together in the End Essay - This I Believed Website / Bio Books Mentioned: The Doctor and the Damned - Albert Haas Armageddon - Bart D. Ehrman The Bible Tells Me So - Peter Enns The Sins of Scripture - John Shelby Spong Why Christianity Must Change or Die - John Shelby Spong Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu Other Topics Mentioned: Albert Haas and Mauthausen Music from Matthew's friend John Ringhofer — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family: hell.bio/dunkfamily Check out the new Resources Page — Santiago announces updates to the resources linked on the Haystacks & Hell website, a new mutual aid project, and a call-to-action to help fellow listeners of the podcast. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon Santiago interviews Adam Kyle Jones, an ex-Adventist who studied to become a Seventh-day Adventist pastor at the SDA school Oakwood University. Kyle went from being a lifelong fundamentalist, conservative Adventist to an agnostic atheist. We cover his upbringing, deconversion, depression, and how he came out stronger on the other side. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes Topics / resources mentioned: Viced Rhino - YouTubeThe Atheist Experience - YouTubeMatt Dillahunty - TwitterOne Piece AnimeThe Demon-Haunted World - Carl SaganSaying No to God - Matthew J. KorpmanThe Moral Landscape - Sam HarrisKyle's social media: Instagram - @kylefreedom_TikTok - @thekylefreedomFacebook - Kyle Freedom— Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Bonus episode discussing an upcoming "Human Sexuality Taskforce" announced by Ted Wilson, President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Why talk about this? Because I care about the current and former Adventists who will be affected by this. Apparently the GC's homophobia is not clear enough, so they will be producing media to double down on this. Related Social Posts (please share if you can): Tweet thread Instagram reel TikTok video YouTube short Sources: Original video on YouTube Spectrum Magazine: General Conference Response Spectrum Magazine: Ethical Dissent Washington Adventist University Summit Adventist Today: SDA Support of Ugandan Anti-LGBT Bill 1987 GC Statement on Sexual Behavior Relevant Info: BITE Model of Authoritarian Control The Cut: Exposing FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) SDA Kinship Relevant Episodes: S1 Episode 4: When Did You Learn About Sex? S1 Episode 5: Did You Ever Get "The Talk?" — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Buy Santiago a coffee • Support on Patreon

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes — Santiago interviews Jeff, an ex-Adventist who used to work for ADRA and still does humanitarian work today. They discuss a bit of everything about growing up Adventist, including Jeff's experiences at an SDA boarding school and what it's been like to leave Adventism over the last 20 years. Buy Santiago a coffee • Support on Patreon Links to topics mentioned: James Dobson VideoChristianity Today: The Wall of AdventismBook: Goodbye JesusEx-Adventist SurveyPlease take the ex-SDA survey if you haven't already! As of this publishing (April 8, 2023), it is planned to remain open until June 2023. — Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy — Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook — Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License