The Credit Edge by Bloomberg Intelligence

Western Asset Management Co. sees “compelling” opportunities in commercial real estate debt, Co-Chief Investment Officer Michael Buchanan says in the latest Credit Edge podcast from Bloomberg Intelligence. This includes loans for warehouses, distribution centers and hotels, he tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Credit Analyst Stephen Flynn, adding that the firm is cautious on offices. In addition, Western Asset likes collateralized loan obligations and debt from companies in the communications sector. Also in this episode, Buchanan and Flynn discuss regulatory risk in mergers and acquisitions, and how investors navigate increasingly aggressive liability management transactions. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Altice ‘Jenga Tower’ Menaces Global Credit Markets (Podcast)Altice distress is ripping through global credit markets and setting some ugly precedents for debt investors. Aidan Cheslin from Bloomberg Intelligence joins Irene Garcia Perez, Eleanor Duncan and James Crombie with Bloomberg News to discuss the ongoing drama. Billionaire owner Patrick Drahi has taken a combative approach to creditors, who are joining forces in an effort to avoid steep losses. Credit rating downgrades and asset price falls at Altice France — which has more than €24 billion ($25.6 billion) in debt — make lenders cautious and undermine the ability of other risky companies to refinance debt. The French telecom is “teetering like a Jenga tower with unsustainable leverage and negative free cash flow,” according to BI’s Cheslin. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Corporate debt markets are poised to perform well provided monetary policy doesn’t get tighter, according to Morgan Stanley. “As a credit investor, the thing that matters most is that the next Fed policy action is not a hike,” Vishy Tirupattur, the bank’s chief fixed income strategist, tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Spencer Cutter. “The bar for a hike is very high,” he adds. Morgan Stanley still expects three rate cuts from the Federal Reserve this year, starting in July. Tirupattur favors leveraged loans, CCC rated bonds and debt from companies in the energy sector. Also in this podcast, Tirupattur discusses the private credit opportunity and commercial real estate risks. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The threat of weak companies not being able to pay their debts is rising as interest rates stay elevated. “On high yield and loans, I do think that risks are growing that you could see a reset in spreads,” Meghan Robson, head of US credit strategy at BNP Paribas, tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Mike Holland. “The obvious trigger for us would be that debate of rate hikes coming back,” Robson says in the latest Credit Edge podcast. BNP favors shorting some single B and CCC rated issuers whose credit spreads have tightened alot. “If rate cuts do seem to be pushed off more and more, I think there could be a sell off there,” said Robson. In addition, BNP favors bonds rated BBB, flags high-yield debt in the media sector as an opportunity, and expresses caution on the financial sector, given the likelihood of an earnings drag if the Federal Reserve doesn’t ease. “The biggest risk we’re watching is a red wave,” says Robson, when asked about the impact of the US presidential election on credit markets. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Europe’s largest asset manager, Amundi, expects Additional Tier 1 bank bonds to extend gains in what it sees as a broadly positive market for corporate debt. “We’re obviously in this kind of Goldilocks scenario, I think, where the central bank put remains on the table,” Steven Fawn, head of global credit at Amundi Asset Management, tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Stephane Kovatchev. “Sub-debt is one part of the market which we like,” Fawn says in the latest Credit Edge podcast, referring to subordinated bonds, including bank AT1s. In addition, the portfolio manager discusses Amundi’s macroeconomic outlook, fund flows and positioning by industry sector and ratings tier. Also in this episode, BI’s Kovatchev analyzes the impact of the Baltimore bridge collapse on the global supply chain. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Altice’s debt woes pose a threat to the collateralized loan obligation market, says Gunther Stein, chief investment officer for US performing credit and CLOs at Sound Point Capital Management. “Altice is clearly an issue for Europe, and in particular the European CLO market,” Stein tells Bloomberg News’ Carmen Arroyo and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Robert Schiffman in the latest Credit Edge podcast. “It’s something we all have to be thoughtful around in terms of how we’re managing our portfolios,” he said, referring to investors’ exposure to borrowers with large capital structures. While the US leveraged finance market is bigger and more diversified than Europe, Altice is also a “relevant” borrower there, Stein adds. He expects higher-for-longer rates to boost leveraged loans and sees value in the technology and cable sectors, as well as health care companies like LifePoint. “There’s good value still in the leveraged loan space,” says Stein. In this episode, Sound Point also discusses CLO issuance, pricing and leveraged loan liquidity. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Credit investors aren’t getting enough compensation for corporate credit risk, says Matthew Eagan, a portfolio manager and head of the full discretion team at Loomis Sayles & Co. “Judging from the spread levels, I think they’ve gone a bit too far,” Eagan tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Stephen Flynn in the latest Credit Edge podcast. He sees investment grade debt as an opportunity, given decent corporate earnings and the fact that debt costs are mostly locked in. Loomis likes BBB rated debt, as well as bonds issued by banks and media companies. Eagan also says ongoing concern about commercial real estate risk is not likely to hurt major banks, and should remain contained to smaller institutions. Also in this episode, BI’s Flynn analyzes improving credit prospects at Paramount Global and predicts a US election boost for iHeartMedia. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Asset-based lending is set to expand over the next 10 years at the same heady pace as private credit, according to Bruce Richards, CEO and Chairman of Marathon Asset Management. “The $100 billion middle-market lending and private-credit lending business in 2008 which grew to $1.7 trillion where it is today — a 17-fold increase — you’ll see the same thing happening in ABL in this next decade,” he tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Arnold Kakuda, in the latest Credit Edge podcast. “I love ABL,” said Richards, referring to loans backed by assets like consumer loans, aircraft and ships. In addition, Richards details how his firm is making returns that can exceed 20% buying office loans from banks, which are having to sell them for regulatory reasons. “Commercial real estate represents a lot of distress in the marketplace but also one of the greatest opportunities in the marketplace right now,” said Richards. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Credit derivatives and securitizations offer high yields and can perform well even if the US economy tips into recession, says Jonathan Dorfman, managing principal and chief investment officer at Napier Park Global Capital. “In credit, for the first time in 15 years, you can actually create portfolios that give equity-like returns,” he tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Tolu Alamutu, in the latest Credit Edge podcast. Standardization and improved transparency have reduced risk in structured credit, which can make better inflation-adjusted gains than corporate bonds, he says. Dorfman also raises concerns about private credit — which doesn’t mark to market — noting “extraordinary” differences in pricing of the same asset by managers. In addition, Alamutu weighs the outlook for real estate as rates stay high for longer. That’s pushing more companies in the sector to borrow in public bond markets, she says. Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Financial institutions are selling off consumer loans under pressure from regulators, setting up investors for significant gains, according to Mark Jenkins, head of global credit at Carlyle Group Inc. “Banks in the US in particular are managing down their risk-weighed assets, and that is creating a deluge of opportunities for us,” he tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie, and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Robert Schiffman, in the latest Credit Edge podcast. Debt being offloaded by banks includes credit card, student and housing loans — which are repackaged into asset-backed securities — and is flowing at a clip Jenkins says he’s not seen before in his 33-year career. Carlyle is also finding elevated returns in high-grade private credit, though Jenkins says stress may show up in direct loans made to companies in 2020-2021, when prices were at an all-time high and rates fell to near zero. In this episode, Jenkins also discusses how Carlyle is testing artificial intelligence for investment decision making, but says it’s too soon to discern a credit-investment strategy focused on AI. “There are those opportunities, but they aren’t directly on the engine of AI — it’s really the infrastructure of AI that we would look to support and build out,” he says. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Buyers of distressed real estate debt stand to make significant gains over the next few years, according to Joshua Pack, co-CEO at Fortress Investment Group. “This is going to be a trillion-dollar opportunity,” he said. Pack discusses how Fortress is getting ready for “a massive restructuring” in the sector with Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Tolu Alamutu in the latest Credit Edge podcast. The impact on banks will be long-lasting and not limited to smaller financial institutions, says Pack, who predicts more consolidation and liquidation. Also in this episode, Alamutu analyzes the real estate stress spreading through Europe that’s hurting banks, insurers and asset managers. Germany and Sweden are areas of concern, while Signa’s insolvency adds Austria to the list of hot spots, Alamutu says. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

US-style creditor-on-creditor violence spreading to Europe is a worry for loan investors, according to Camille McLeod-Salmon, portfolio manager at Fidelity International. “What we are focused on is this move that’s in the US towards creditor-on-creditor violence — and the shift that you’ve had there — and that translating into Europe,” she said. London-based McLeod-Salmon talks to Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Aidan Cheslin in the latest Credit Edge podcast. There are opportunities for investors in the technology and chemical sectors, she adds, predicting high-single-digit returns in European leveraged loans. Also in this episode, BI’s Cheslin weighs the outlook for Altice, which is shedding assets in a bid to reduce debt. The company has had to pay up to extend maturities and there’s a risk of divesting crown jewels in pursuit of fresh cash, Cheslin says. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Geopolitics are a potential menace to public debt markets that could present opportunities for private lenders, according to Mike Dennis, co-head of European credit at Ares Management. “The capital markets in general are still pretty fragile,” Dennis tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie in the latest Credit Edge podcast. “It wouldn’t take much for that liquidity to reverse out of the system,” he said. Volatility may open the door for private credit firms to participate more in larger corporate loan deals, Dennis says, adding that there’s more demand for European transactions than supply. Also in this episode, Bloomberg Intelligence’s Stephane Kovatchev analyzes the shipping sector after a 300% increase in freight rates. Greater supply of ships coupled with fading demand are expected to relieve some of the price pressure, Kovatchev says. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Collateralized loan obligations are among the best debt investment opportunities for this year, according to John Wright, global head of credit at Bain Capital. Spreads on the structured investment vehicles, which repackage leveraged loans into bonds of varying risk, may tighten further, even as default rates rise, Wright tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Mike Holland in the latest Credit Edge podcast. He also sees robust potential for growth in India and Australia, as well as in private credit, especially for buyouts. Slim recovery rates in the loan market are among the biggest worries. Also in this episode, BI’s Holland analyzes the outlook for WeightWatchers, whose bonds are dropping. The company faces a tough road ahead but there is a path to survival, Holland says. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The US economy is at risk of tipping into recession in the second half of this year, putting pressure on corporate debt markets, says Chris Alwine, global head of credit at Vanguard. “What would precipitate that shallow recession is that corporations are just not hiring, with a modest increase in layoffs,” said Alwine. Vanguard, one of the biggest money managers in the world, with $8.6 trillion in assets, is cautious on junk-rated debt, Alwine tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Stephen Flynn in the latest Credit Edge podcast. He meanwhile sees opportunity in the bonds of large financial institutions. Also in this episode, BI’s Flynn analyzes the debt troubles at Dish Network Corp. and what it means for the rest of the sector. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Private debt needs to get better at explaining itself as the $1.6 trillion asset class goes mainstream, according to James Reynolds, global head of direct lending at Goldman Sachs. “We collectively need to just demystify what we do — which is in simple words, lending to corporates,” Reynolds tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s David Havens in the latest Credit Edge podcast. Goldman wants to double the size of its $110 billion private credit business. Reynolds sees growth opportunities in Asia, investment-grade loans and leveraged finance, as well as more secondary trade in private debt. Also in this episode, BI’s Havens analyzes the rush by business development companies (BCDs) to go public as valuations soar. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Private-debt firms are set to consolidate as larger companies dominate deal flow, according to Marc Chowrimootoo, portfolio manager at Hayfin Capital Management. “We’re seeing a concentration within fewer hands,” Chowrimootoo tells Bloomberg News’ Lisa Lee and James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Julie Hung in the latest Credit Edge podcast. “That trend is going to continue.” He identifies debt refinancing as the big opportunity for private lenders in 2024. Hayfin likes the health-care and software sectors, while avoiding smaller borrowers that are struggling with higher rates. In addition, BI’s Hung weighs the impact on food and drink companies of weight-loss drugs like Ozempic. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Commercial real estate faces a tough 2024 as trillions of dollars in debt comes due and refinancing gets harder, according to Neil Callanan, corporate finance czar at Bloomberg News. Offices in financial centers are especially under pressure after banks tightened lending standards, Callanan tells Bloomberg senior editor James Crombie in the latest episode of the BI Credit Edge Podcast. He’s watching for delayed and canceled new projects and short selling of real estate companies as signals of distress. In addition, Jody Lurie, Bloomberg Intelligence credit analyst, weighs the outlook for leisure-sector bonds after a stellar year in 2023. Gains are expected at a slower pace, while some junk cruise operators are heading for investment grade, according to Lurie. Business travel will boost hotels, while car rental firms are more challenged, she adds. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

New entrants to the rapidly-growing private credit market, scrambling to deploy capital as demand exceeds supply, risk making loans that don’t perform well, according to Alan Schrager, senior partner and portfolio manager at Oak Hill Advisors. “You sort of love private credit tourists who potentially do bad deals, because bad deals that ultimately you don’t own make you look good on a relative basis,” Schrager says. “Even though we do think private credit is really cheap, we are trying to stay high quality,” Schrager tells Bloomberg News senior reporter Lisa Lee senior editor James Crombie in the latest episode of the Credit Edge podcast. Also in this episode, Bloomberg Intelligence senior credit analyst Arnold Kakuda weighs the outlook for banks heading into a tougher macro environment next year. Large financial institutions are well prepared for credit risk after withdrawing from some markets that private lenders stepped into fill, and they will be big bond issuers in January, according to Kakuda. Regional banks are more exposed to commercial real estate stress, he adds. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Private credit will hog the limelight in 2024, with ever-larger deals and continued expansion, even as high rates and a slowing economy add risks. To discuss the outlook for next year, Paula Seligson and Lisa Lee — senior reporters in Bloomberg’s global private credit news team — join senior editor James Crombie in the latest episode of the Credit Edge podcast. Private debt will likely attract more investors — and the attention of regulators seeking transparency. Also in this episode, Bloomberg Intelligence credit analyst Rena Kwok weighs the resilience of Asean banks amid a Chinese economic slowdown. She identifies relative value in Bangkok Bank bonds and sees risks across the board from elevated interest rates. Private credit activity has been muted in the region, but it’s something to watch for next year, Kwok says. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.