The Messy City Podcast

Chuck Marohn, the President and Founder of Strong Towns, joins me to talk about his newest book, “Escaping The Housing Trap: The Strong Towns Response to the Housing Crisis.” Along the way, we also discuss the upcoming Strong Towns National Gathering in Cincinnati, a different way cities can think about building and financing new sports facilities, and our different takes on the place-making of Disney World. If you have an interest in attending the National Gathering in May, I highly recommend it. Register at this link, and use this code for Discounts: KEVINK2024 For some background on Walt Disney’s history in Kansas City, check out Thank You Walt Disney. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Episode Transcript: Kevin K (00:00.964) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm delighted today to have my friend Chuck Morrone on the show. Mr. Strong Towns, Chuck, it is so good to see you and I'm really excited to talk with you today. Charles Marohn (00:16.848) Hey, I'm really happy to be here. And here's the amazing thing. I listen to your podcast. You have a great voice for this. I mean, I have this horrible voice that people have grown used to. But when you turn on, you're like, hey, this is the messy city podcast. I'm like, yeah, man, you should be doing way more of this. Kevin K (00:37.38) Well, at least you didn't say that I have a great face for radio. So. Charles Marohn (00:40.72) Well, you and I both. Kevin K (00:44.484) Oh man, well, it's fun. You know, I'm still very much an amateur at the podcasting gig. And it's been fun to learn and experiment with it. You've been doing it for quite a while. And so I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you on this show. And we've got a couple of, a couple of fun topics, but in a couple of things that I think will get more serious and interesting as we go. And we'll just get through whatever we can get through. But. Charles Marohn (01:11.568) That sounds great. Well, you've been having all my friends on, you know, so like, yeah, here's Howard. I'm like, wait a sec. That was a blast. And then you had, you had Seth Zeran on recently. I'm like, that's really cool. So yeah, it's been fun. You know, I, I know you and I know, uh, you know, some, some of the ways that you think about things. And I really am. I love chatting with you, um, hearing you have these. Kevin K (01:15.172) I try to do that. Kevin K (01:19.076) Yeah. Yeah. Charles Marohn (01:38.704) fun conversations that we sometimes get to have in person. Hearing you have them with other people is just, it's a delight for me. So yeah. Kevin K (01:46.02) Well, that's very great, very flattering to hear. You know, it's one of the fun things you've probably experienced this too. One of the fun things about having a podcast is you get to choose who you want to talk to. And there's a lot of people that we know and we've all known for a long time that I get to learn so much more about. And for me, that's been one of the most enjoyable aspects of this is just getting to really know people's backstories a lot more. And so that's been a great pleasure. Charles Marohn (02:04.496) Sure. Kevin K (02:16.036) So. Charles Marohn (02:16.4) Yeah, yeah. Well, you you know everything about me, so we don't need to talk about. Kevin K (02:20.1) We know a lot about we know a lot about Chuck. Chuck, fortunately, shares his backstory a lot, although I'm sure there's tons we could get into. I'd rather save the time for some other topics, but you. You do have an awful lot going on right now in this moment, and I want to talk about a couple of those things. One is you have a book, a new book, the strong escaping the housing trap, the strong towns response. This is...

Butch Rigby is a long-time Kansas City developer, small business promoter, and city booster. We decided to sit down and talk about the looming ballot initiative on April 2, and the pros and cons of the current proposal for moving the Royals to the Crossroads neighborhood. You can listen to more of Butch’s story in this podcast. Another podcast of interest is this discussion with Philip Bess, and our work together to save Fenway Park. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Episode Transcript: Kevin (00:00.644) Welcome back to the messy city podcast. I've got a returning guest, butch Rigby here, otherwise known as Kansas city's George Bailey, as I've described my, uh, my longtime friend and, uh, and partner in crime on, uh, Kansas city issues, downtown development issues, et cetera. And, uh, Bush, it's great to see you. Oh, Kevin. It's always great to be here. Matter of fact, it. feeling like Savannah, Georgia. It is. I mean, it's already in the 70s and it was the 70s in February or something. That was crazy. So I know everything's blooming. All the stuff I planted last fall is looking good. So I'm happy. I was worried that everything bloomed too early and it was going to get frozen out. But I don't think so. I know. I think we're like straight into lake season pretty soon. So that's all right. Well, butch, I wanted to have you in today to talk about. the baseball stadium issue in particular, because it's a hot topic here locally. There is a proposal on the ballot coming up in April here in Kansas City and Jackson County to extend a sales tax, an existing sales tax that will expire in a few years. to help fund a new baseball stadium for the Royals in a downtown location in the Crossroads area. And then also provide funding for the Chiefs for a series of improvements to Arrowhead. And Butch and I go way back on this issue. We had a lot of fun years ago talking about the potential for downtown baseball when we were both volunteering with the Urban Society of Kansas City. That's correct. That's right. Shout out to all of our urban society buddies. Oh yeah. They knew who they are. And I think it's interesting, maybe where we could start Butch is to kind of put things in context for what we talked about. That was probably now 20 years ago when we were getting involved in that. Just about. Yeah. And so that was when the Glass family owned the Royals. And... Kevin (02:16.186) Downtown was coming along, but it was still a little bit more in its infancy of redeveloping. And there was a push on the part of a lot of people to try to get the Royals to consider coming downtown. And we took on this crazy volunteer task of looking at all the different sites that there were downtown and trying to get people to analyze them and... put their thoughts together. That was, in retrospect, that was kind of a wild thing. And we had a couple hundred people who volunteered with it, as far as I remember, right? We did. And, you know, of course you have to remember 30 years ago when I bought my first building down in what was then Film Row, 19th and Wyandotte, you know, before the days of Crossroads, it was a ghost town. And I'm not kidding. I mean, it was literally... On a Friday night, we would hold these Christmas and July parties to celebrate the history of Film Row. And we were the only thing going on down there. Now, you know, we were begging for tenants. I had a few buildings that I bought and I was having a challenge keeping a coffee shop tenant open. Certainly wasn't, you know, having any luck with restaurants or anything like that. That's just natural when you've had, you know, a big daytime population in office towers in the, inside the loop. Uh, but you really have, uh, I think we had 2 ,500 residences...

Of all the parts of this enjoyable conversation with Seth Zeren, now of Providence, RI, the part I liked the most was this quote: The worst fight is with your allies that betray you. The quote, which is mostly about perception, says a lot about people who are frequently in heated agreement with each other, but find themselves disagreeing on something that’s very minor in the big picture. We discuss this as we discuss his post called, “When New Urbanists and YIMBYs fight.” Seth has a great Substack, talking about all the overlap in his interests from city planning to development and more. His path and his passion are impressive. From his early days working in local government, to now the cold, hard reality of making development projects work. And what’s next? Perhaps some place management, perhaps some housing policy advocacy, perhaps just more really interesting redevelopment projects. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Transcript: Kevin (00:01.269) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm excited today to have Seth Zarin here with me on the podcast. Seth and I have met in the past and corresponded a little bit. Seth has a sub stack that I definitely recommend called Build the Next Right Thing. And he's in Providence, Rhode Island, which is actually, I think, one of the sort of most underrated smaller cities in the country. I've always really liked Providence, enjoyed it. So Seth, welcome to the podcast. I know we're going to have a lot of good things to talk about. We're going talk some housing and some other stuff, but glad to have you on so we can do this. Seth Zeren (00:43.574) Thanks Kevin, it's nice to be here. Kevin (00:46.261) I think, you know, Seth, I want to kind of start by talking about you're another guy who has a really interesting path and background into becoming into the development world, which is what you're doing now, but certainly not at all where you started. And I wonder if you could kind of walk people through your professional background and then even like why you wanted to do a sub stack. in the first place, as some of us silly people do to put thoughts out in the world. Seth Zeren (01:19.862) Yeah, absolutely. I usually introduce myself when I meet people by saying that I'm a former climate scientist, recovering city planner, turned real estate developer. I usually get a laugh on recovering. Much like people who have all sorts of addiction issues, city planning is something that you always kind of in the back of your head, always kind of want to work on, but can be really challenging. Kevin (01:35.381) Ha ha ha. Seth Zeren (01:48.918) I'm actually from California. I grew up in the San Francisco suburbs, south of the city in Silicon Valley, basically. And by the time I graduated high school, it was quite clear that I would never be able to afford to live there. At that point, houses were selling for about a million dollars for a little ranch. Now it's about $3 million. And so by the time I left for college, I sort of knew that the housing situation there had been a little bit of a mess. broken so much that it was really unlikely that I would be able to find a good quality of life there for myself at that time. In college, I ended up studying geology and climate science. So I was a geology major, geosciences major, and I narrowly averted the PhD. I dodged it, fortunately, and I found myself really becoming interested after college. I went and lived in South Korea for a year and I taught English there. And It was such a different experience than growing up in an American suburb or in a small town where I went to college. And it really got me thinking a lot. And when I came back to the U S and I went and worked at a boarding...

Eric Brown spends most of his time designing beautiful buildings and doing urban plans for his firm, Brown Design Studio. But, when you get him away from the desk, you find someone with a good sense of history, and an understanding of how to get things done. We partnered up together in Savannah to help create the Savannah Urbanism Series (a guest lecture series), host CNU 26, and create the Savannah 2033 Plan for greater downtown. With all of Eric’s many accomplishments, he’s a good person to talk with when we try to understand the bigger landscape of change and cities. So, we cover a lot of ground including the role of the business community in planning historically, what all is going on in Savnanah, and what he’s seeing with new, greenfield development. He talks a bit about his project Selah, in Norman OK, as one example. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Transcript: Kevin K (00:01.346) Welcome back to the messy city podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg Got my good buddy Eric Brown with me today. Eric is architect urban designer man about town Savanian What what else should I have on your resume here? Eric (00:22.818) Probably my best accomplishment, which is being a father. Kevin K (00:25.718) There you go, there you go. All right, well, I'm in that with you now as well, although I was a little later at the party than you, but it's a pretty awesome responsibility and I know Nick's a great kid, so congratulations on that. Eric (00:41.494) You haven't seen him in a while. He's six foot one now. Kevin K (00:45.142) Jesus, it's taller than me? That's not possible. Eric (00:47.982) He's a, he's still grown too. He's a big boy. He's going to be a big boy. And, uh, you also haven't seen ace the wonder dog. Kevin K (00:57.418) Yeah, yeah, I know. It's been a couple of years since I've been back. Although watch out rumor is we're gonna make a trip back this year, so I'll let you know. So I wanted to, there's a lot of things Eric and I talk about and there's any number of directions we can go with this hour today, but I do wanna hit a couple of things specific to like what stuff that you work on and some things that we did years ago. Um, Eric and I were kind of partners in crime in Savannah, um, really trying to, um, bring more discussion about new urbanism and, and better long-term planning, uh, to the city. And that may seem like a strange thing because Savannah is famous for its planning, uh, and its built environment. But like a lot of cities in the last several decades, um, it's really just been kind of the default. same stuff that you see everywhere, other than the historic district. So one of the things that Eric and I kind of put our heads together on was to get a group together and do an updated master plan of sorts for the greater downtown area of Savannah. We did this in 2018. We called it the Savannah 2033 plan. And... We called it 2033 because not just because it was like 15 years was a nice round number away, but really because 2033 is the 300th anniversary of the founding of Savannah. Savannah is actually older than the United States as a country. So it felt like a great benchmark for us to give. And I flew the coupe a few years ago, so I haven't been in touch in Savannah with every... as much of what's going on, but I wondered, Eric, if you could talk a little bit about that plan and effort and any legacies from that and what might be going on today, sort of good, bad, or indifferent, regards to thinking about planning in downtown Savannah. Eric (03:11.402) Um... That's a good question. And you know... I'm gonna kind of circle back to that answer in a second. But, you know, we also, you know, you and I also kind of had our little CNU group here, brought the Congress...

Daniel Herriges has been one of my favorite reads on the Strong Towns site for many years. He has thoughtful, in-depth pieces on many subjects, notably housing. Now, he has co-authored a new book with Chuck Marohn called “Escaping the Housing Trap.” We discuss the book, and much more, including my guest appearance in the book. New feature: transcript below Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Kevin K (00:02.704) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. Thanks for listening. I've got a special guest here today, somebody who has been one of my favorite reads for many years now. Daniel Herrigus is here joining us. And Daniel, it's great to see you. Daniel Herriges (00:24.11) Great to be here, Kevin. Thank you. Kevin K (00:25.85) We're going to talk a lot about housing today and housing itself is obviously, it's probably one of the most, been one of the most talked about topics nationally inside the urban planning and development world and outside that world as well, probably for at least a decade as housing costs have really exploded in a lot of places in the country. So it's a very, very common conversation piece. And a lot of it is often frustrating and confusing to talk about. So into this, Daniel Steps, he's actually been writing about this for some time on the Strong Towns website and writing really great pieces. And now he is the co -author of a new book with Chuck Marrone called Escaping the Housing Trap, which comes out, when does it come out Daniel? Daniel Herriges (01:21.494) April, April 23rd. Kevin K (01:23.152) April 23rd, okay. So I'm really, really looking forward to this. I think Daniel and I have probably learned from each other quite a bit in things that we've talked about and written about. And so I'm really, I'm excited to have this conversation and kind of dive deeper a little bit into the general topic of housing and his perspective and the book's perspective on it. So Daniel was kind enough to share with me a little bit of the introduction. And I say that just because I've marked a few notes to help me direct the conversation a little bit. Housing is so broad as a topic. There's about a thousand different places you can go. And I really like how you laid it out here in the beginning. But I do want to start with just kind of one piece that I think is really fundamental that I just highlighted here a couple of sentences. And I know probably for strong towns readers, this will sound familiar, but I just think it's important to emphasize this and repeat it because, and have you expand on it. But you talk about central to this approach is that recognition that cities are complex systems. They are shaped by countless decisions made by millions of individuals over time with interconnections that are challenging to trace or fully grasp. When attempts are made to simplify. or ignore this inherent complexity in organizing urban life, challenges and disruptions arise. I wonder if you could expand a little bit on that and why do you think that's so fundamental to this conversation? Daniel Herriges (03:04.526) Yeah, well, it's something that's been it's been fundamental to the Strong Towns conversation for a long time, as I think anybody who's read the blog and is familiar with our work knows. And I do think it's central to to grasping what's really gone wrong. You know, it's it's funny, I would talk to people casually, you know, old friends and stuff in the process of writing this book, and they'd say, well, what's new in your life? And I'd say, well, I'm co -writing this book with my boss and. It's about the housing crisis. And an old high school friend of mine, I remember I'm sitting down for coffee with him, and I said, I'm writing a book about the...

David Gale was the first significant client that hired my old architecture/planning firm, back in 2001. Dave was already a successful developer of master-planned communities in Lee’s Summit, Missouri, and we worked together for several years to create Kansas City’s first and largest Traditional Neighborhood Development called New Longview. Cutting out the jargon, that means the first new, walkable community planned along the lines of older communities. Gale Communities has worked for years on the Winterset developments in Lee’s Summit, and Dave has brought his passion and vision to suburban development. My experience is, he’s always tried to push the envelope of quality development, while maintaining a sharp focus on what is profitable. He blends a deep knowledge of marketing and business, with a Canadian’s eye on creating community. Twenty years later, I really enjoyed having this conversation with Dave. His perspective has always been unique in the KC market, and his success speaks for itself. Hopefully, his work can inspire younger people about what is possible and the difference they can make in the lives of people through thoughtful development. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Conversations about zoning and building can get really wonky really quickly. That’s why it’s important to remember the goal: how do we create more of the kind of intimate, find-grained communities that humans obviously love? Can we actually do this all through development regulations? History hasn’t been kind to that notion over the last hundred years. New urbanists designers innovated form-based codes as a counterpoint to segregated-use zoning. Some of those have worked, and some haven’t. We discuss the pros and cons of those codes in this episode, and what appears to be the latest innovation: pre-approved building plans. Matthew Petty and Matt Hoffman have teamed up to create their solution: Pattern Zones. From their home base in beautiful Northwest Arkansas, they travel the country evangelizing and innovating about the next generation of development regulations. And, how to make this all easier with better outcomes. Tech issues nearly killed this episode, but somehow we prevailed. I think it’s a great companion to my discussion with The Jennifers, who also work on pre-approved buildings. A final thought: this episode reminds me that my experience has shown that nearly all innovation in local government starts in small towns and small cities. There’s a deeper thread in there as to why, and a conversation I hope to explore at length in the future. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Each year, I like to set aside some time and figure out priorities for the year ahead. This time, I took a step back and asked, “What do I think the priorities should be for my community? For my little corner of the world, what would help us thrive?” Some of these may surprise you, and some may not. But it’s my best attempt to work this all out for myself. I’m not perfect; none of us are. I have my own blind spots and preferences. But coming from the vantage point of an urban planner, an architect, someone in place management, these six are where I would begin. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all! For this final episode of 2023, we convene some of my KC brain trust to discuss a few perennial hot topics. We have a lengthy discussion on district parking and parking management in a car-dominated metro region, we discuss the possible future location of the Kansas City Royals, and talk some about current projects and lessons learned in small-scale infill development. When it comes to baseball, there’s tons of great websites out there on stadiums, but I think this one on historic stadiums that are now gone is a good one. Here’s a page on KC’s old Municipal Stadium, which we discuss. And I can’t help but push people toward my interview with Philip Bess on this topic as well, including our work on saving Fenway Park. Projects we discuss: Columbus Park Townhomes 2000 Vine Wheatley-Provident Hospital Boone Theater Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Abby Newsham hosts the excellent podcast “Upzoned” on the Strong Towns network. I always recommend it to people, since it’s a great way to keep on top of current issues in the field, and you’ll get plenty of contrarian takes. Sometimes, the contrarian is me, but often it’s Strong Towns President Chuck Marohn. Abby has had a recent hiatus from hosting podcasts (but set to return in 2024), and so we do a little reverse Upzoned this time where I get to interview her. We discuss this piece called “Have you Ever Seen a City?” by Addison del Mastro on his blog, The Deleted Scenes. Addison challenges us to ask, do we often even really know what we’re talking about when we discuss these issues? We also talk about Abby’s recent involvement in Kansas City with the KC Community Land Trust and their project to renovate the old Marlborough School. Abby is sinking her teeth into a development project with the KCCLT for the first time, and there’s some interesting lessons. Some of those lessons are outgrowths of her work to lead the local Small Developers group. Abby is a planner with multistudio in Kansas City. You can find her on Instagram and Twitter. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Those of us who willingly embrace a label such as “urbanists” or “new urbanists” would do well to recognize we are a tiny minority of the population. If we want our tiny minority to grow, and our cities to succeed, we need to better appreciate what appeals to everyone else. Let’s learn to recognize those traits, and then make our cities better. When we forgive failure or incompetence, we do no one any favors - including the places we love. Happy Thanksgiving, and Happy Holidays to all. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Paul Knight, a planner with the design firm Historical Concepts, can give you a dozen reasons for just about anything. More importantly, he can give you reasons for brushing up on the lectures of former Georgia Tech professor Douglas Allen. Allen was a giant in the field of urban planning, and fortunately some of his former students and colleagues have carried on his work following his passing. Paul is one of them, helping form the Douglas Allen Institute. This may all sound very academic, and I know I often take shots at academia. But, when it works well, it’s amazing the impact one really great professor can have on so many people. I wanted to talk with Doug, because I know just how brilliant the man was, and how it’s even better that his work will live on for future generations. For example, the Institute was able to videotape his lectures from his “History of Urban Form” course, and they’ve made them available for free on YouTube. If you’re at all interested in the history of cities and towns, I couldn’t recommend something more highly. Several years ago, Paul also opened my eyes to the whole rabbit hole of base 12 versus base 10 measurements. I’m now a firm believer in base 12. In this episode, Paul even lets me know there’s a Dozenal Society. I should’ve guessed, but had no idea. Since we made a few minor errors in the podcast, here are the official corrections: * In regards to the “Jeffersonian” grid, and what it really should be called, here’s what Allen had in his lecture notes: “Congress formed a committee originally chaired by Thomas Jefferson, but eventually by Hugh Williamson of North Carolina. Jefferson had proposed ten states and a measurement system of his own invention based on the nautical mile. After Jefferson was called away to Paris, Williamson’s committee adopted the Gunter Chain and the system of feet and inches that are in use today.” * I was trying to think of the “4 rod Main Street,” which is a historic pattern throughout much of the United Kingdom and the US. The rod is 16.5 feet, and the four rod street was thus 66 feet wide. 66 feet is also one chain. * The reason a mile is 5,280 feet is that it’s exactly 320 rods. * The book I couldn’t remember was “Measuring America: How the United States was Shaped by the Greatest Land Sale in History.” Please look at the work of the Douglas Allen Institute, and the Urban Form Standard that Paul mentions. It’s really pretty terrific work. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Philip Bess joins me this week in a wide-ranging conversation about architecture, academia, and baseball. It’s not the first time we’ve shared such a bizarre collection of topics. We didn’t even get into localism, subsidiarity, and Georgism. We’ll save that for next time, I suppose. Mr. Bess is retiring from a career in academia, at Andrews University and Notre Dame University. I also had one of my very first design charrette experiences with Phil, back in 1999 in Ada, Michigan. We talk about his experience in academia as someone with a fondness for traditional architecture and urban design (hint: it’s not always popular), and we also mention the origin of the infamous “Dogbark Plan.” If you take anything away from this, understand the historical importance of the Fenway 7, and Philip’s little book called “City Baseball Magic.” It’s a gem that describes an alternate reality for (old?) New Comiskey Park in Chicago, and laid the groundwork for all of us ending up in Boston in the Summer of 2000 to help two local non-profits trying to save their beloved historic ballpark. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Somehow it’s fitting that his name is Clay. Yet, he’s more than just a brick mason. Clay Chapman is part artist, part philosopher, and part builder. His new buildings have captured the attention and imaginations of everyone who’s seen them. I joke with him that at every conference session I’ve seen, he’s the most popular presenter. But it’s no joke; people are enthralled by his newly constructed homes. Clay talks about how he became the country’s most famous bricklayer (ok, that’s my moniker for him), and the ins and outs of building new homes with structural masonry. We talk about the difference between brick veneer and structural masonry, some of the details, and how this type of work can scale. Clay now mostly works at Carlton Landing, a new development on Lake Eufaula in Oklahoma. He’s trained a number of people that are doing similar work, including Austin Tunnell of Building Culture, in Oklahoma City. If you go see any new construction this year, go see these buildings. Take a trip to Oklahoma, you won’t regret it. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Today, I discuss three chapters of issues that are tied together by the place-making triumvirate of design, policy and management. First, I revisit the International Downtown Association (IDA) annual conference, and the importance of place management organizations. Very quietly, these types of groups are stepping up to better manage public space in neighborhoods all over the country. It’s a great thing. Second, I dig deeper into the issues facing many schools and getting kids to schools on buses. I ask, is this yet another example of how we seem to be drifting fitfully back toward 1910? What do you think? Is there a solution to the bussing dilemma? Can we afford to keep operating a system just for children? Are there other things you see, that feel like harkening back to a previous era of civilization? Finally, why do our thoughts on economic development in rural areas continue to just be nothing more than warmed-up leftovers from a previous era? Do we have the capacity to critically examine systems that haven’t worked, abandon them and start over? Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I’ve long said it’s incredibly unfortunate we have such negative caricatures of real estate developers. Perhaps this is a sad legacy of the movie “Caddyshack.” Or, perhaps it’s the relentless wave of cherry-picked stories that dominate our media narratives. All the while, we have people like Diane Botwin, who just go about their lives and days creating wonderful projects, partnerships and good deeds for human beings. Why isn’t she our picture of a developer? In this episode, we trace Diane’s path from musician to attorney to developer. You may even notice she’s managing a construction project in the background during the interview. We also talk a bit about WIRED KC, or Women in Real Estate Development. It’s an incredible story, worthy of a whole episode. Diane is the owner of Botwin Commercial Development in Kansas City. I’m also fortunate to be partnered with her and Andrew Ganahl on an infill development here as a small part of AND Real Estate. We are building ten townhomes and ten apartments in the wonderful Columbus Park neighborhood. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

In the very small world of people working on the concept of pre-approved building plans for infill development, Jennifer Griffin and Jennifer Settle have been pioneers. “The Jennifers,” as a few of us jokingly call them (I’ll have a future episode with “The Matts”) meet with me to discuss their work in South Bend, and their own journeys as entrepreneurs in the world of urban design and architecture. Jen Griffin runs her own firm in Tulsa, OK called J Griffin Design. Jen Settle now works with Opticos Design, in their Chicago office. They both have worked extensively in a volunteer and partnership capacity with the Incremental Development Alliance and Neighborhood Evolution. For more detailed information on the work in South Bend, click here. As a side note, for anyone interested in more discussion on entrepreneurship while being a Mom, check out this episode with Alli Quinlan. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform. David Sucher’s 1995 classic, City Comforts is a book I have long recommended to anyone with an interest in cities, design and planning. In a way, the book really hit the cultural mark in that era. It was set in Seattle, which was the locus for 1990s culture, especially musical culture. You could almost pair up the book with the 1990s movie, “Singles,” for a sense of what was happening broadly with the American zeitgeist, and perhaps Douglas Coupland’s novel Microserfs. David’s book was eminently practical, with not a smidge of utopian thinking. It’s written and told by someone who sees problems to be solved at the micro scale, and solutions that can be had. It’s written in a series of very short vignettes. It’s written with an obvious love and care for humans, and for the cities they inhabit. And while it clearly derives from the era, it could be re-published today with very few changes and having similar relevance. In fact, that’s something David and I discuss. Here’s a few links we discuss: David’s “3 Rules for a Walkable Neighborhood” Allowing One Triplex per Block On the proposed gondola for Little Cottonwood Canyon Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

What exactly do “place management” organizations do, and where can they be most effective? I share my thoughts after leading Midtown KC Now for almost four years, and I see our role. Here’s a tease: I think the role of these sorts of organizations is incredibly important for the success of communities, and I fully expect this role to grow in the future. This is the kind of locally-based, micro-scale work that truly makes a difference. In the intro, I also reference former Charleston, SC Mayor Joe Riley. There’s many clips you can find of Riley on-line, but here’s a short one: I also discuss why I believe we need to have a growth mindset for the urban core of Kansas City. Here’s a few charts that I use to help explain this position: Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jason Segedy has served in public service in Akron, Ohio for over 25 years. He’s been a leader at an MPO, and also the Planning Director in the city where he was born and raised. It’s safe to say that Jason has a lot of love for his hometown of Akron, Ohio. I began following Jason on social media, mostly Twitter, several years ago. I found him instantly to be one of the most thoughtful, provocative and insightful people on that forum. He’s a big thinker, but also eminently practical and funny. He cares deeply about his place, but he also knows there’s more to life than the simple pursuit of urban planning. In fact, that knowledge and sense of priorities has colored his on-again, off-again relationship with social media. That’s something we discuss in detail. Jason’s also a fabulous long-form writer, and I hope he takes it up again soon. Here’s his Tumblr blog, “Notes from the Underground.” Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe