The Good Energy Podcast

I’m very excited to share this conversation with 19 year old activist and student, Anika Green. She grew up in an inner city Christian community called Stillwaters in Te Whanganui a Tara which aims to provide a space of belonging, transformation and faith for anyone who needs it. In her childhood home she was surrounded by all kinds of people who loved and cared for her, including homeless people, gang members, sex workers and refugees. She never learnt to view these people through a lens of difference. By hearing their stories and sharing in their grief and joys she learnt about issues of poverty, discrimination and injustice in a very personal and immediate way. By the age of four she was already a passionate advocate for social justice and her commitment has only grown since then. I used to visit the Stillwaters community when I was at university for the dinners and services they hosted every Friday and Sunday evening. I remember feeling like I’d come across a warm cave in a bleak landscape when I stepped inside. I was moved by the warmth and generosity with which everyone came together to eat, sing, laugh and chat. The experience cut through a sense of isolation in my life. It was refreshing and nourishing to get out of my bubble. In this conversation with Anika we explore the economics of her childhood home - how they afforded to feed so many people every week, where the energy and resources came from and how they balanced the needs of their family with those of the community. She told me about the home she’s creating for herself with other young students and her vision for how homes with open doors could provide the belonging and dignity people need to thrive. I was particularly struck by one thing Anika said: “When you know you’re loved and belong, it’s easy to be selfless.” To me, this statement speaks to the heart of economic system change. The Good Energy Project has taught me that alternative economic systems which honour the planet and people are possible - but they require a profound shift in the way we relate to each other. As Bryan Ines pointed out in our conversation last year, we need to re-learn how to work together. Talking with Anika, I had the sense that she lives in a wider field to other people. She has a huge capacity for service and connection because she receives so much from the people around her. She lacks the barriers, fears and indoctrinated ideas that cause other people to shut down. This conversation spurred some deep reflections of my own sense of belonging and my capacity to open my door and welcome people in. This has been both inspiring and confronting. I don’t think I could live in a home with an open door as Anika does at this stage. I don’t feel I have the capacity, the skills to establish healthy boundaries or a deep enough sense of belonging to draw on. But I feel deeply inspired by the openness and generosity Anika shows and I want to engage in the slow work of opening up and connecting across difference. It strikes me that unless we find pathways to belonging and ways to heal our own sense of displacement and shame, we won’t have the capacity to show up for each other or the planet. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

After interviewing lots of inspiring and knowledgeable experts it was so lovely to sit down with someone I know really well and embark on a journey together. Hanna is such a great storyteller. I was captivated right from the start by her descriptions of her childhood, her uncompromising teenage passion for animals and the environment and the way she veered off her scrupulously developed life-plan (to become a vet like her Dad) into the chaos, beauty and terror of the world. This is a beautiful story of the way life reveals pathways and hope where we least expect them. One of the reasons I wanted to interview Hanna now is that her story aligns with a new focus for my project. (By the way I have some very exciting news - I’ve been funded to continue the Good Energy Project for another year until October 2024!! I feel like I’ve spent my first year just getting my head around the topics of economics and climate change. In the next year I’m really excited to start to explore how I might be able to contribute.) One of the focuses for the funding being renewed is speaking to more young people - because our ultimate aim is to support young people who will inherit all these challenges. Hanna is quite young - 27. She wants to be part of a more caring and connected economy and world. But it’s really hard when you’re at the beginning of your career, everything is expensive and none of the obvious ways of making money align with your values. Another focus for my next year is to experiment with creative ways of working with the ideas and needs I’m discovering - I’ve spent my career devising creative interventions to help bring the humanity back to intellectual topics like science and engineering - things like magnificent science variety shows and storytelling events. I also find myself surrounded by creative people - my wife is an arts therapist, my brother and his partner are puppeteers and writers. I find myself drawn to creative people and I’m convinced that whatever the solutions are to these huge problems I’ve been exploring, they will need creativity to succeed. Hanna is one of my thinking partners for imagining what this could look like. Another thing I think we’ll need, to bring to life the ideas and possibilities I’ve been talking to people about, is some kind of spiritual or cosmological revolution - something that supports us to change ourselves and our fundamental way of seeing the world. I’m not sure I like the word “spirituality” but it expresses something under the surface that effects everything. Lots of my interviewees have eluded to similar things. Hanna has a nice way of describing this. So Hanna seemed the right person to help introduce some of these new themes and explorations. She’s also just fun to listen to! Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

I’m really pleased to be able to share this conversation with Max Rashbrooke - journalist, author, academic and expert on economic inequality and democratic renewal. I’ve seen Max around for years in Wellington. I’m pretty sure I remember him at parties a decade ago having rigorous political conversations. I’ve been stoked over the past year to get to know him and bit more. I loved this conversation! We went right back to Max’s childhood in Eastbourne and learned about his teenage love of sci fi, his core belief that another world is possible and the values of generosity and reciprocity which he holds dear. We explored the connections between poverty and climate change and Max’s vision for the future. I was struck by the resonances with my last conversation with Hemi Hireme (& Part 2) - the idea that forty years of market economy has stifled our imagination for what’s possible and eroded our faith that government initiatives can make a real difference in people’s lives. As a result many of us feel overwhelmed and fear that nothing works. Max talks about the importance of being able to connect with people across society and have real conversations about the things that effect us. He says we need real examples of how alternative approaches actually work - not just visions and values. And that these real-life stories are out there - we need to start sharing them more. “Now is the time for new ideas and frameworks to bubble up,” he says. “Are we building a nurturing society? And what would it take to make New Zealand genuinely the best place to bring up a child?” I love these questions. It was a hopeful conversation and a remedy for the overwhelm and hopelessness I frequently feel. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

This show is the second part of a two-hour conversation I had with Hemi over Zoom. It felt so rich I wanted to share it all with you instead of doing a separate interview. If you missed the first half, you can find it here: Decolonising our imaginations - Part 1 I also recommend reading this article which Hemi recently wrote for the Spin-off: “The Sunday Essay: Two waka, three iwi, three hapū”. It tells a beautifully poetic story of his background and work. Hemi is on a mission to re-establish the Māori philosophy of Ranginui (Sky father) and Papatūānuku (Earth mother) as a foundation for our society. He has spent the past twenty years researching the history of capitilism and colonisation while immersing himself in his own Māori cosmology, which views the earth as a living entity. Hemi has a vision of re-establishing marae as the political, economic and social centres of our communities and seeding a culture that celebrates difference while finding belonging and connection in the land. Hemi talks about how our modern world is dominated by a European philosophy which separates us from the natural world and from each other. He believes that we need a spiritual and cultural renaissance to shake off old ideas that have colonised our minds and build the unity and strength we’ll need to survive climate change. He suggests that the Māori philosophy of Rangi and Papa offers a remedy to help bring our country together with hope, pride and diversity. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

This show is going to be a bit different. Instead of interviewing Hemi I decided to share the conversation we had over Zoom when we first met. It felt so rich I wanted to share it all with you. It was also quite long (2 hours) so I’ve broken it up into two parts. I’ll post the second half in a couple of weeks. I met Hemi through Marceline and Tur at the Quatro Trust. As well as supporting The Good Energy Project, Quatro are supporting Hemi to create a book and an online course. Max Harris, who I interviewed a month ago, also recommended I speak to Hemi and admires his work. Hemi is on a mission to re-establish the Māori philosophy of Ranginui (Sky father) and Papatūānuku (Earth mother) as a foundation for our society. He has researched deep into the history of capitilism and colonisation and pulls stories and ideas from across the centuries and around the world. He’s also deeply steeped in his own Māori cosmology and is passionate about sharing the richness of this, especially with other Māori who have lost contact with their own tradition. Hemi has a vision of re-establishing marae as the political, economic and social centres of our communities and seeding a culture that celebrates difference while finding belonging and connection in the land. Hemi got in touch with Marceline after reading Tur’s guest blog post and hearing my interview with him. He wanted to express his excitement and support for Tur’s idea that Aotearoa could take a lead in reducing energy-use and waste through nurturing the pride and diversity of our communities. Along with his email, Hemi attached an article which he recently wrote for the Spinoff called “The Sunday Essay: Two waka, three iwi, three hapū”. It was reading this article that first drew me to Hemi. I was intrigued by the story he tells of his childhood, moving between worlds that had been touched to a different extent by colonisation. There was Waiotapu, the small forestry village near Rotorua where he lived, Whakatane, where he spent holidays with his cousins and a place called Pāraeroa in Te Urewera (or “up the river” as he called it). This was the spiritual home of Ngai Tūhoe, his mother’s whanau and the place that spoke most deeply to his soul. A place where he says: “Capitalism and the notion of private property had not arrived”. In Pāraeroa, Hemi describes, “there seemed to be no barrier between adults and children, horses and dogs, whānau and whenua… Everyone and everything came together as one world. Our world. In this world, the connections to the land did all the speaking.” I was so taken by Hemi’s description of Pāraeroa and the way it seems to have called to him as a beacon throughout his life as he’s come to terms with our history and the effects of colonisation. Hemi talks about how our modern world is dominated by a European philosophy which separates us from the natural world and from each other. He suggests that the Māori philosophy of Ranginui and Papatuānuku offers a remedy to the crises we face and a spiritual foundation to bring our country together with hope, pride and diversity. I was moved by how generous and inclusive Hemi was and inspired by his ideas. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

Last week I was lucky enough to get 2 hours of Natalia Albert’s time to interview her. (It was supposed to be 1 hour but after the first interview I realised I had forgotten to press record!!!! Arghhh!!! Can you believe it!? Fortunately Natalia agreed to stay for a second take. And I think the second was almost as wonderful as the first - perhaps better! This interview has a back story…. I first met Natalia in 2015 when I was part of an event she was leading - TEDx Wellington Women. I often tell people that event was my first genuine experience of feminism in action - I can thank Natalia and the amazing team she pulled together for that.During the process of preparing my talk, I was paired with a male coach who I really didn’t vibe with. Every time we met I got a little more lost! I struggled for weeks, but it wouldn’t come. A couple of days before the big event my coach declared my talk was not “TED quality” and advised me to pull out to save my own embarrassment. I was devastated and ashamed - I knew I had something important to say but whenever I was around that coach I lost my confidence and felt paralysed. I remember trying to sneak out of the building before anyone saw me. But Natalia spotted me first. Seeing her smiling face, I burst into tears. She took me aside and through sobs I told her what had happened.“You forget what that man said!” she replied with full conviction. “You’re going to get up there and be fantastic. This is my event and I don’t care what they say.”Oh My God! I’ve never experienced such a contrast of emotions in such a short period of time. Total doubt - that feeling of being entirely inadequate under the male gaze - followed by total belief sweeping in with power and warmth and telling me I was enough. Natalia had given me the central message of my talk - the power of belief over doubt! I went on to talk about how Science is based on doubt, which divides and makes sense of the world. Science is good - but belief is even better. I managed to write my talk in a day (with the help of my Mum) and it was a big success! It was also a turning point in my career where I started to back myself. I have Natalia to thank for that. I hadn’t seen her much since then so I was delighted to see her face up large on posters as a Wellington Central candidate - I imagine she could hold the same kind of encouraging space in the political sphere as she did for us. Seeing her prompted me to get in touch and let her know how much I appreciated her influence back then. That’s how we reconnected and how this interview came about. I loved this conversation! I learnt about Natalia’s childhood, growing up in Mexico with her single Mum and moving country several times as a young child. She spoke about how having dyslexia helped her develop a strong sense of self and how her difficulty finding work when she arrived in New Zealand fuelled her passion for accessibility. She’s a passionate advocate for the rights of marginalised groups such as migrant women, disabled and trans people. Natalia described her big vision of an accessible and transparent government and how making accessibility a measurable goal would improve the government’s impact across the board. We talked about the idea of fostering lots of different economies that meet the needs and skills of different communities - rather than talking about “the economy” as if it’s one big amorphous thing. She shared her appreciation for the fierce advocacy groups in New Zealand and the many role models and heroes she’s met here. She also shared some personal thoughts on her relationship with culture and community and how we could become a country that feels genuinely inclusive to all our citizens. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

I was up in Auckland last week and was lucky enough to catch an hour with this lovely human - Max Harris. The conversation was recorded in his living room with snacks and tea. There's many things I could say to introduce Max. He was born in London and grew up in Wellington. He's a lawyer and an activist. He was a Rhodes Scholar. He almost died once and his brush with death unexpectedly led to him winning a very prestigious fellowship from Oxford University to spend seven years on a research project. His research culminated in him writing a book called The New Zealand Project, which I thoroughly recommend. It's about rediscovering New Zealand's lost direction and establishing a new foundation for our economic system and culture based on the values of care, community, and creativity. Max talks about the way the reforms of the 1980s and 90s (commonly known as Rogernomics and Ruthanasia) drained our public life of values and narrowed our collective imagination of what’s possible. He shares some of his ideas for how we could blow our sense of vision and possibility open again. In particular, he focuses on how our central government could embody the values of care, community and creativity. They could introduce regulations that protect things we hold sacred (like healthcare and education). They could reform the tax system to address inequality and they could steer our collective action towards missions that serve the greater good. Max shares his vision to reinstate an organisation called the Development Finance Corporation (a government development bank), which could support the growth of new industries and innovative ideas. We briefly talked about how quantum technology and other seemingly random specialities of New Zealand’s scientists could help reinvigorate our economy. Max also shared why he’s excited about decolonisation and what he feels could be possible if we learn and from Māori perspectives and knowledge that is grounded in this place. Max is obviously very smart, but what I admire most about him is his optimism about who we are as people and what we could be. He seems to be able to maintain a lack of cynicism while facing up to the stark truths of the world. He speaks up for things like care and kindness, which I think can be hard in our intellectual and outcomes-focused world. I hope you enjoy the conversation too! Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

In this podcast I gather up my learnings and inspirations from my journey so far. It’s mostly me talking this time, accompanied by two musical instruments. I’ve also included some highlight excerpts from my interviews. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

It was a real delight to catch the train from Wellington to Carterton to spend the day with Helen Dew last week. I was treated to a full tour of her tiny incredibly abundant garden and given lots of inspiring reading material on the history of money, the rich life inside soil and other topics. This podcast is a small selection of the rich conversation we had. Helen has spent the past 30 years dedicated to promoting local currencies across the country. She’s a passionate advocate for re-localising our economies and lives. She’s also a co-founder of the Living Economies Educational Trust. You can read a bit more about her and the trust here: https://livingeconomies.nz/ Helen is also a passionate and accomplished gardener. She manages to largely feed herself from her tiny backyard garden shown here in its slightly subdued winter form. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

(Excuse the sound quality on this interview - the phone line was a bit dodgy!) In this interview with Bryan Innes from Living Economies we explore what’s wrong with the banking system and why there’s never enough money. Bryan shares with me a brilliant idea he developed called “Savings Pools”, which enable small groups of people to pool their resources and make loans to each other. It functions a bit like a very small community bank, but nobody pays interest. Bryan introduced savings pools to Aotearoa about 12 years ago and since then all kinds of people have used them to get out of debt, start businesses, buy houses and lots of other things. Bryan’s next dream is to set up a local interest-free community bank in the Coromandel where he lives and to figure out how to do the same around the country. He has recently been enthralled by the story of Dave Fishwick, a UK self-made millionaire who started his own community bank in the small town of Burnley to support local businesses hit by the recession. (Dave’s inspiring story was made into this film and also this brilliant documentary TV series, which is so good, it made me cry). When we spoke on the phone, Bryan shared a quote with me from one of his permaculture heroes. It went something like: “Find out what’s not illegal and do that.” I think that captures Bryan’s approach to life - when you come across a barrier, don’t bash your head against it - figure out a clever way around - and when you’ve figured it out take people with you. With savings pools, Bryan has discovered a legal way for ordinary people to save and access money, without having to go through mainstream banks with all their fees and interest. His own life has been a study of how to live well with as little waste as possible. In this interview we only touched the surface of the topics I wanted to talk about, which include land trusts, cooperatives and the history of money. The key message I got from my conversation with Bryan was that we have to learn to work together - to behave cooperatively. We’re in this bizarre position in our society where most of our basic human needs are met through these large-scale impersonal mechanisms like supermarkets, banks, governments and corporations. That means we don’t need to rely on each other anymore. That’s never been the case before in human history and it makes us incredibly vulnerable, when those large mechanisms start to falter. When Bryan told me how savings pools work, I was struck by the emotional and social intelligence required to make them work. They require a group of people to get together, talk openly about personal finances and make decisions as to whether to loan money to each other. It sounds potentially awkward and uncomfortable and I think that might frighten a lot of people off. But I think that exact feeling of awkward discomfort marks the way forward. I think doing practical things with people is hard! But I agree with Bryan, that it’s the most important skill we need to learn as humans to evolve and survive the challenges we face. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

Sometimes, in moments of lazy thinking, I’ve lumped business in with capitalism and assumed they’re both part of the cause of our environmental crisis. But Tur has spent his life working in business and he sees the value good companies can bring to their communities and the planet. He describes a company as “a community of people trying to achieve something together” - not too unlike a sports team trying to win. In this conversation he describes the qualities of a good company (taking responsibility, looking after people and sharing the value it creates) compared to a bad company where everyone is looking after their own interests and money rules. He celebrates the qualities that good companies foster - ingenuity, hard work and pride - and he suggests we encourage and applaud good companies just like we do sports teams. Tur spent his career helping companies that were on the brink of failure to get back on their feet and succeed (originally for the Development Finance Corporation and then with his own investment company). His job was to support the management through this recovery period - helping to clear the time and space they needed to understand the problem and figure out how to solve it. Although this was often an incredibly challenging time, there was also something incredibly exciting about it. “It’s hard work but it creates an enormous amount of pride,” Tur says, “You find yourself part of close relationships. It creates trust and respect and generates so much value.” Tur observes that the answer to companies surviving these “near-death experiences” was usually to get smaller and fairer - cut unnecessary costs, focus on core business, value relationships, share the load across the company and lower expectations till the business is back on track. It was hugely satisfying when it worked, which it often did. Now that he’s retired, Tur has turned his attention to the macro scale and the relationship between our economic system and the climate crisis. He sees a strong parallel between the plight of humanity on planet earth and that of a failing company - we’ve over committed ourselves and need to consolidate, work together and make our whole enterprise smaller and fairer. He doesn’t offer concrete answers but provides a way of thinking about the problem that is illuminating in itself. The conversation has given me a more nuanced and inspiring view of the role of business in navigating a safe path into the future. Here are some links Tur refers to in the conversation: * Tim Morgan’s Surplus Energy Economics Blog * Susan Krumdieck’s Global Association for Transition Engineering * Development Finance Corporation Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

After an illustrious career dedicated to environmental and social advocacy, Barry Coates has come to believe that directing our money is the greatest power we have as individuals to help the planet and change our economic system. In our conversation, we explore and challenge the role of money in our modern world and break down its power and mystique. Included in the podcast, is a session with Barry’s colleague (and my friend Olive) where she shows me how to redirect the money I have in my Kiwisaver fund to better serve the planet and people. If you have a Kiwisaver fund and want to see what you’re invested in, go to https://mindfulmoney.nz/ and press “check my fund”. It's super easy and only takes 10-20min to switch. If we all do it, it will have a big impact. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

There's something really exciting about this interview with Professor Susan Krumdieck. Susan is an engineer and co-founder of transition engineering, a new field which challenges and trains engineers to face the challenge of climate change. There's something incredibly refreshing about the way she views the challenge of transitioning our society to a sustainable one. She zooms out to look at this point in history from an engineer's perspective - getting real about the situation we're in, looking at what we need to survive and asking - how do we do it? Susan believes that engineers can steer this planet-ship into safe waters. We can build new economic models from a foundation of solid science and creative engineering. I think her optimism comes from the fact that we're smart and we know how to solve problems - we just need to lift our sights up and get creative together. The next stage of human evolution beckons! And it involves looking into the future and caring about the safety of future generations just as much as our own. Susan's vision is to get 20% of the world's engineers signed up to transition engineering - so help spread the word to your engineer friends. Sign up here: https://www.transitionengineering.org/ Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

Kia ora! Here's my first interview for The Good Energy Podcast. It's with my brother Justin about reimagining the food system. His vision is to catalyse networks of small-scale farms that could feed whole communities cheap healthy food while nurturing the soil and reducing climate change impact. Justin introduces us to the amazing work of Vagabond Vege and their regenerative human-scale market garden in the Wairarapa. Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe

To introduce my new podcast, I asked my good friend Mitzi to interview me about where the project came from, why it's so exciting and what I'm hoping to achieve with it. I've also shared a bit about my background so you can get to know me a bit better :) Get full access to The Good Energy Project at thegoodenergyproject.substack.com/subscribe