Diamond Effect - Strategies to Scale Your Service Business as a Sellable Asset
Business & Economics Podcasts
This podcast helps service-based entrepreneurs and business owners scale their businesses in any economy without overworking or overwhelm. The goal is to create an asset you can sell while enjoying life as you build it.
Here, you turn your business into a client-attracting gem and become a high-performing CEO.
About the Host:
Maggie Perotin is the founder of Stairway to Leadership. As an international business and leadership coach, Maggie helps service-based business owners start, grow, and scale their businesses without overworking or being overwhelmed.
With her DREAM-PLAN-DO coaching model, her clients scale while transforming into high-performing CEOs of their businesses.
This is what USA Today wrote about this model in the article titled: "How Stairway to Leadership is turning small businesses into high-profit ventures."
"(...) her DREAM-PLAN-DO coaching model, she helps her clients align their mindset, business strategy, and high-performance habits to transform their businesses from an unreliable source of income to a super-productive client-attracting gem. Maggie adds that she uses all her knowledge and experience to help her clients grow their businesses in a strategic and innovative way while supporting them in building a successful business that consistently attracts their ideal clients. She specializes in helping them build a brand that showcases their uniqueness to reach their full potential, becoming the powerful CEO they’re capable of being."
Maggie has over 15 years of experience in corporate leadership in various business domains and coaching. She holds an executive MBA from the Jack Welch Management Institute.
Maggie lives in Toronto, Canada, with her blended family with four kids. She loves spending time in nature, traveling, reading, dancing, good food, and giving back.
To learn more, head to www.stairwaytoleadership.com
To work with Maggie and gain break-through clarity on why your business isn't scaling- schedule a free 50-min consultation https://calendly.com/maggie-s2l/discovery-call
Location:
Canada
Description:
This podcast helps service-based entrepreneurs and business owners scale their businesses in any economy without overworking or overwhelm. The goal is to create an asset you can sell while enjoying life as you build it. Here, you turn your business into a client-attracting gem and become a high-performing CEO. About the Host: Maggie Perotin is the founder of Stairway to Leadership. As an international business and leadership coach, Maggie helps service-based business owners start, grow, and scale their businesses without overworking or being overwhelmed. With her DREAM-PLAN-DO coaching model, her clients scale while transforming into high-performing CEOs of their businesses. This is what USA Today wrote about this model in the article titled: "How Stairway to Leadership is turning small businesses into high-profit ventures." "(...) her DREAM-PLAN-DO coaching model, she helps her clients align their mindset, business strategy, and high-performance habits to transform their businesses from an unreliable source of income to a super-productive client-attracting gem. Maggie adds that she uses all her knowledge and experience to help her clients grow their businesses in a strategic and innovative way while supporting them in building a successful business that consistently attracts their ideal clients. She specializes in helping them build a brand that showcases their uniqueness to reach their full potential, becoming the powerful CEO they’re capable of being." Maggie has over 15 years of experience in corporate leadership in various business domains and coaching. She holds an executive MBA from the Jack Welch Management Institute. Maggie lives in Toronto, Canada, with her blended family with four kids. She loves spending time in nature, traveling, reading, dancing, good food, and giving back. To learn more, head to www.stairwaytoleadership.com To work with Maggie and gain break-through clarity on why your business isn't scaling- schedule a free 50-min consultation https://calendly.com/maggie-s2l/discovery-call
Language:
English
Episodes
EP 202 - The Entrepreneur's Guide to Journaling - Science-Backed Benefits for Business Growth
5/23/2025
In this episode, Maggie Perotin explores how journaling can be indispensable in your high-performing CEO toolkit. From Bill Gates to Sarah Blakely, successful business leaders use journaling to foster creativity, solve problems, and maintain peak performance.
What You'll Learn:
Key Benefits of Journaling Discussed:
Emotional regulation and stress reductionEnhanced self-awarenessImproved problem-solving and creativityHealth benefitsIncreased productivity
Four Journaling Methods for Business Owners:
Mindset Maintenance JournalingIdea Development JournalingOrganizational JournalingTransformational Journaling
Featured Quote:
"As business owners and leaders, our business cannot outgrow us. We must first grow for the business to deliver the results we want."
Resources Mentioned:
DREAM-PLAN-DO Journal
Take Action:
Ready to transform your business through journaling?
Join Maggie's journaling challenge!
Book a consultation to learn how to combine personal development with business coaching for maximum results.
Connect with Maggie:
Visit stairwaytoleadership.com to learn more about coaching options and the Diamond Effect Group.
Duration:00:21:12
MM 202 - Why Your To-Do List is Failing You (Try This Instead)
5/19/2025
🔊 Episode Summary:
Maggie reveals why traditional to-do lists set you up for stress (not success) and shares her *30-minute Weekly CEO Power Hour*—the exact system she uses (and teaches clients) to 10X productivity, eliminate wasted time, and achieve 1 week’s work in 1 day.
💡 Golden Takeaways:
✅ The Big 3 Rule: Focus on 3 weekly goals tied to 90-day targets (not 30 random tasks).
✅ Time Block Like a CEO: Schedule outcomes, not just tasks (e.g., *“2-hour block: Finish Module 1”*).
✅ The Daily Filter: Ask: “Will this move my Big 3 forward?” (If no, delete or delegate).
And if you're serious about becoming a High-Performing CEO and 10X Your Business, book a complementary consultation call with Maggie here to discuss details. https://www.stairwaytoleadership.com/
Duration:00:03:42
EP 201 - How to Lead Your First Team: 5 Principles Every Business Owner Must Know
5/16/2025
Are you transitioning from solopreneur to a small business owner with a team? This episode is your practical guide to effective leadership, whether you're hiring your first virtual assistant, building a small team of contractors, or hiring a few full-time employees.
🎯 Perfect for you if:
💡 In this episode, I share five essential leadership principles drawn from:
🔑 The 5 Essential Leadership Principles:
Lead by Example (00:04:00)
Know Your People (00:08:00)
Have Their Back (00:13:00)
Avoid Micromanagement (00:16:00)
Address Performance Issues (00:21:00)
💪 Key Takeaways:
Ready to level up your leadership? Book a free consultation HERE
Connect with Maggie:
https://www.stairwaytoleadership.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggie-perotin-business-and-leadership-coach/
https://www.instagram.com/maggie.perotin.s2l/
#DiamondEffectPodcast #LeadershipTips #BusinessGrowth #TeamManagement #SmallBusinessSuccess #ServiceBusiness #BusinessCoaching #EntrepreneurshipJourney
Duration:00:28:59
MM 201 - The Hidden Truth About Consistency (It's Not What You Think)
5/12/2025
Discover why consistency isn't about willpower or time management - it's about something much more fundamental. Through a real client story, Maggie reveals the two key elements that make or break your consistency efforts.
🔑 Key Takeaways:
💡 Client Story Highlight:
Learn how one business owner went from struggling with newsletter consistency to making it a non-negotiable part of their business - without finding more time in their schedule.
⚡️ Action Step:
Identify one area where you're struggling with consistency and examine whether you're treating it as "optional" versus "non-negotiable."
🎁 Special Opportunity:
Join Maggie's online AI Workshop on May 28th, 2025 to discover how to leverage artificial intelligence for consistent business growth while saving hours each week.
Connect with Maggie:
maggie@stairwaytoleadership.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/maggie-perotin-business-and-leadership-coach/https://www.instagram.com/maggie.perotin.s2l/
Duration:00:03:52
EP # 200 - From Zero to Consistent Gigs: Growing a Music Business While Working Full-Time and Raising a Family with Jay RK
5/9/2025
🎉 Celebrating 200 Episodes of Diamond Effect Podcast!
In this special milestone episode, host Maggie Perotin interviews her husband, JF Perotin (stage name - Jay RK), a musician and performer who successfully built his entertainment business while maintaining a full-time career and also prioritizing family life.
Key Discussion Points:
🎸 Building a Creative Business (0:00-5:00)
💼 Business Growth Strategies (5:00-13:00)
⚖️ Work-Life Integration (13:00-19:00)
❤️ Relationship Dynamics (19:00-24:00)
👨👩👧👦 Parenting & Business (24:00-31:00)
🎵 Where to Find JF's Music:
@therockinkrolik💡 Key Takeaways:
🎯 Action Steps for Creative Entrepreneurs:
Connect with JF:
https://www.therockinkrolik.com/
IG - https://www.instagram.com/therockinkrolik/
Connect with Maggie:
https://www.stairwaytoleadership.com/
IG - https://www.instagram.com/maggie.perotin.s2l/
LinedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggie-perotin-business-and-leadership-coach/
#DiamondEffectPodcast #CreativeBusiness #Entrepreneurship #WorkLifeBalance #FamilyBusiness #MusicBusiness #SideHustle #BusinessGrowth
Duration:00:32:51
MM 200 - The Lie About Passive Income Everyone Believes
5/5/2025
In today's Maggie's Moment, Maggie smashes the myth of "passive income" and reveals why most entrepreneurs waste years chasing it. Learn the 3 hard truths about building real scalable income—without the guru hype.
Passive income isn’t real. Here’s why:
Truth #1:Truth #2:leverageTruth #3:
💡 Key Takeaways:
✅ There’s no such thing as 100% passive income—only pre-loaded effort.
✅ Scalable income (e.g., group programs, productized services) beats "passive" dreams.
✅ Invest in skills that compound (marketing, sales) over buying shortcuts.
📣 Engage With Maggie:
Comment:"Do you agree? Drop a 🔥 for ‘truth’ or 🤔 for ‘still skeptical’!"TagWant more?
Duration:00:03:47
EP # 199 - Beyond the AI Hype: Real Business Applications for Small Businesses and Service Providers
5/2/2025
In this value-packed episode, Maggie shares her practical approach to implementing AI in your service-based business, drawing from her extensive leadership experience in technology adoption and business scaling.
Key Insights:
• Why AI is like training your delegation skills (and how this prepares you for future team growth)
• The "10X output" framework for solopreneurs and small business owners with limited budgets
• How to maintain your authentic voice while leveraging AI tools
• 4 practical areas where AI can amplify your business today
💡 Actionable Frameworks:
🛠️ Recommended Tools:
• Sintra - for social media, marketing and sales materials - https://playosinc.pxf.io/7ayEnr
• Descript - for video and podcast content - https://get.descript.com/2sd4jd07z70j
• Chat GPT, Perplexity, Deep Seek - for research and content creation
🎯 Getting Started Tips:
• Start with free tools to build confidence
• Focus on specific, context-rich prompts
• Always fact-check AI-generated research
• Use AI as an amplifier, not a replacement
💥 Special Announcement:
Join Maggie's hands-on AI workshop on May 28th, 2025 (2-4 PM EST) to create:
🔑 Key Takeaway: AI isn't about replacing human expertise—it's about amplifying your business capabilities while maintaining your authentic voice and expertise.
Ready to transform your approach to AI? Book your workshop spot at https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/solopreneurs-ai-toolkit-create-weeks-of-content-sales-materials-fast-tickets-1321747364949?aff=oddtdtcreator
#BusinessGrowth #AIforBusiness #ServiceProvider #SmallBusinessTips #BusinessAutomation #DiamondEffect
Duration:00:22:31
MM 199 - The Power of Perspective - 3 Mindset Shifts That Made Me Most Money
4/28/2025
Tooday, I share 3 key mindset shifts that directly impacted my business revenue and can transform yours too.
Key Insights:
• Why successful businesses still face challenges and how this knowledge makes you a better leader
• The "Rock Behind You" principle: How to stop letting past results limit your future potential
• Why consistency trumps trendy strategies (especially for introverts!)
💡 Quote highlight: "Don't trip over the rock behind you" - Seneca
🔑 Key Takeaway: Your future success isn't determined by past results - every day brings new opportunities to exceed your previous best.
Ready to transform your business mindset? Book your discovery call at https://stairwaytoleadership.com
#BusinessGrowth #LeadershipDevelopment #MindsetShift #BusinessSuccess #EntrepreneurMindset
Duration:00:04:02
EP # 198 - 5 Ways Non-Sales Employees Can Boost Sales in Your Service Business
4/25/2025
In today's short yet highly valuable episode, Maggie discusses how every employee in your small business can contribute to sales growth, whether directly or indirectly. Learn how to maximize your team's potential to drive business growth and increase revenue.
Key Points:
Indirect Contributions to SalesDirect Customer Contact OpportunitiesCustomer Journey EnhancementService ExcellenceBusiness Culture ImpactKey Takeaway:
"Every employee you hire in your small business is an investment and needs to contribute directly or indirectly to the growth of your business."
Action Step:
Before delegating tasks, conduct a cleanup exercise to ensure you're outsourcing valuable activities that contribute to business growth.
Resources:
Book a free consultation with Maggie to:
Connect with Maggie:
• Book a Discovery Call: https://calendly.com/maggie-s2l/discovery-call
• Email: maggie@stairwaytoleadership.com
• Website: https://stairwaytoleadership.com
#BusinessGrowth #TeamDevelopment #Sales #CustomerService #BusinessStrategy
Duration:00:12:01
MM 198 - The Unsexy Truth About Business Success
4/21/2025
Today, Maggie shares a powerful perspective on what truly drives business growth amidst the distracting political climate in Canada and the US.
Key Points:
• Why political drama and exciting news can pull us away from business fundamentals
• The real, "boring" activities that consistently generate revenue
• How habits and systems create sustainable business success
Quotable: "Your business grows in the quiet moments between the excitement."
Resources Mentioned:
• T.O.P. CEO Framework - Maggie's signature system for sustainable business growth
Connect with Maggie:
• Book a Discovery Call: https://calendly.com/maggie-s2l/discovery-call
• Email: maggie@stairwaytoleadership.com
• Website: https://stairwaytoleadership.com
#BusinessGrowth #BusinessSystems #Entrepreneurship #BusinessSuccess #SmallBusinessTips
Duration:00:03:47
EP # 197 - The Success Triangle. 3 Critical Areas Every Business Owner Must Master
4/18/2025
In this value-packed episode, Maggie Perotin breaks down the three essential areas of self-development that every entrepreneur needs to focus on to achieve sustainable business growth.
Discover why your business can't outgrow you and how developing these critical areas leads to faster, more sustainable success.
What You'll Learn:
Personal Development as a Human Entrepreneur
Business Leadership Skills
Industry-Specific Expertise
Key Insights:
✦ The three crucial mindset shifts that accelerate business growth
✦ How personal development directly impacts business success
✦ Why mastering business skills is essential for scaling
✦ The connection between self-development and effective leadership
💡 Episode Quote:
"Your business cannot outgrow you. Our skills allow us to be more effective, not only in decision-making and having a better perspective, but also in doing things faster."
Resources Mentioned:
• DREAM-PLAN-DO journal
• Personal development books (reach out to Maggie for recommendations)
Ready to accelerate your business growth through personal development? Visit https://Stairwaytoleadership.com to book a free consultation with Maggie.
Duration:00:26:18
MM 197 - 3 Life-Changing Principles I Wish I Knew in My 20s
4/14/2025
In Today's Maggie's Moment, Maggie Perotin shares three transformative self-development principles that could have changed the trajectory of her early career and life. These timeless insights are valuable for entrepreneurs and professionals at any stage of their journey.
Key Takeaways:
• Being proactive vs. reactive: Learn the power of intentional goal setting and weekly planning
• Focus on controllable factors: Discover how to redirect energy from external stressors to actionable progress
• Prioritize self-care: Understand why filling your own cup first is crucial for sustainable success
🎯 Action Step:
Choose one principle to implement this week. Start with weekly planning, identify areas within your control, or create a self-care routine.
💡 Quote:
"Your energy is finite. When you redirect it from what you can't control to what you can influence, magic happens."
Ready to take your leadership journey to the next level? Visit https://stairwaytoleadership.com to learn more about working with Maggie.
#BusinessGrowth #Leadership #SelfDevelopment #EntrepreneurMindset #PersonalGrowth #BusinessCoaching
Duration:00:03:58
EP # 196 - Inside the Diamond Effect Group: How We Turn Side Hustles into Sustainable 5-Figure Businesses
4/11/2025
In this episode, Maggie pulls back the curtain on her signature program, the Diamond Effect Group. She shares the story behind its creation and how it helps service-based business owners create sustainable 5K+ months without burnout.
Key Highlights:
Success Stories Mentioned:
Program Structure:
Investment: $2,500 for 12 months with payment options available
Success Guarantee: Additional 3 months of support if needed
Resources Mentioned:
Ready to transform your side hustle into a thriving business?
Visit https://www.stairwaytoleadership.com/diamond-effect-group to learn more and book a free consultation with Maggie.
#DiamondEffectGroup #BusinessCoaching #Entrepreneurship #SmallBusiness #BusinessGrowth
Duration:00:33:08
MM 196 - Hidden Time Wasters: A Business Owner's Guide to Schedule Spring Cleaning
4/7/2025
In this quick bonus episode, Maggie Perotin shares a powerful strategy for spring cleaning your business schedule. Learn how to identify and eliminate time-wasting activities that secretly sabotage your productivity and business growth.
Key Points Covered:
• Why your calendar might be as cluttered as an overstuffed closet
• The 30-minute block tracking method for time audit
• Three main time-clutter culprits to watch for
• Real client success story: How reallocating 5 hours led to doubled consultation calls
Action Steps:
Resources Mentioned:
• Free Webinar: "Side Hustle Transformation Blueprint" - April 8th at 11 AM
• Time on Demand Formula
Quote from the Episode:
"We accumulate time-wasting tasks like we collect promotional pens – they just keep multiplying when we're not looking!"
Connect with Maggie:
• Website: stairwaytoleadership.com
• Email: maggie@stairwaytoleadership.com
• Instagram: @maggie.perotin.s2l
CTA:
Register for the "Side Hustle Transformation Blueprint" webinar to learn how to create massive momentum in your business, even with limited hours. Perfect for entrepreneurs balancing business growth with full-time commitments.
Duration:00:04:32
EP # 195 - Balancing Business Growth & Family Life - A Balloon Artist's Journey to Building a Dream Life
4/4/2025
Guest: Paola Di Fonzo, Owner of Balloonique
What started with a $30 DIY balloon project during maternity leave has blossomed into Balloonique - a flourishing event decor company serving the GTA. In this episode, Paola shares her entrepreneurial journey, proving you don't have to choose between family dreams and business success.
🎈 The Journey:
• Maternity leave creative project → Professional decor company
• Solo creator → Team of three + company truck
• Weekend installations while homeschooling during the week
💫 Key Moments We Explore:
"I thought maybe in 5-10 years we could do this..." Paola reflects on how her hobby unexpectedly accelerated into a thriving business within just one year.
🔑 Business Growth Insights:
• Using creativity beyond balloon art - in marketing, processes, and problem-solving
• Building systems that protect family time while allowing business growth
• Finding and trusting team members who share your vision
✨ Most Surprising Discovery:
"Business sense is very close to common sense" - Paola shares how she transformed from doubting her business abilities to confidently leading a growing company.
💡 Biggest Takeaway:
You can build a successful business that works around your life priorities - not the other way around. It's about getting creative with your systems and trusting the process.
🎯 Connect with Paola:
Website: https://balloonique.ca
Instagram: @ballooniqueto
Duration:00:29:33
MM 195 - Your Limitations Aren't Limiting - They're Your Superpowers
3/31/2025
In this quick bonus episode, Maggie shares her journey of turning perceived business limitations into unique advantages.
Key Points:
• Starting a business in your 40s can be your advantage, not a setback
• How being an immigrant with an accent became a memorable brand feature
• Converting introvert tendencies into authentic connection strategies
• Transforming limited social media experience into a genuine approach
🔑 Key Takeaway:
There's always a solution to achieving the goals you truly want and commit to.
Your perceived limitations aren't stopping you—they're setting you apart in the marketplace.
Want to transform your "limitations" into business advantages?
Book a call with Maggie: https://www.stairwaytoleadership.com/
Follow Maggie:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/maggie.perotin.s2l/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggie-perotin-business-and-leadership-coach/
#BusinessGrowth #Entrepreneurship #LimitingBeliefs #BusinessSuccess #Leadership
Duration:00:04:10
EP 194 - Win-Win Partnerships: The Hidden Growth Strategy Most Business Owners Miss
3/28/2025
In this episode of the Diamond Effect Podcast, we dive into the power of strategic relationship building in business development and sales. Learn how cultivating meaningful business relationships can create opportunities that no paid advertising can match.
Key Takeaways:
• The African proverb rings true: "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together."
• Strategic relationship building is crucial for long-term business success
• Success comes from focusing on select, valuable relationships rather than trying to connect with everyone
My Early Sales Story:
✦ Started in the fashion industry sales with no experience
✦ Became top salesperson within a year
✦ Success came through strategic relationship building
✦ Focus on learning client needs and providing solutions
Real-World Example:
• RBC Women of Influence Award nomination process
• Importance of community relationships beyond clients
• Value of diverse business connections
Action Steps for Listeners:
💎 Diamond Effect Insight: The magic happens when you integrate strategic relationships into your larger business growth strategy.
Want to learn more about building powerful business relationships?
Visit https://www.stairwaytoleadership.com/
Resources Mentioned:
• Diamond Effect Group Coaching Program
• RBC Women of Influence Award
#BusinessRelationships #StrategicGrowth #BusinessDevelopment #DiamondEffect #SalesStrategy #NetworkingTips #BusinessSuccess
Duration:00:17:23
MM 194 - From corporate leader to full-time coach (my story)
3/24/2025
Are you doubting whether your side hustle could ever replace your corporate salary? I get it. Five years ago, I was sitting in my corporate office, wondering if my coaching business would ever be more than just a dream...
Back in 2019, my reality looked like this:
• Leading a high-stakes corporate team
• Starting my coaching journey
• Completing my MBA
• Raising young school-aged children during COVID
The doubt and overwhelm were real. But then everything changed when I developed:
🔑 Time on Demand Framework
Instead of trying to 'find' time, I created it
🔑 DREAM-PLAN-DO Model
Turned overwhelming goals into organized action steps
🔑 Business Owner First Marketing
Built a client pipeline that worked with MY schedule
In 2022, I made the leap to full-time coaching on MY terms.
Now I help others do the same.
👉 If you're building a side hustle or thinking about monetizing your skills...
Drop a comment below:
💭 What's your side hustle?
💭 Why did you start it?
P.S. Want to learn more about building a successful business alongside your career? Join me for "The Side Hustle Transformation Blueprint" masterclass on April 8th at 11 AM EST, where I'll share more of my journey and reveal the exact strategies that worked for me and my clients. Secure your spot here - https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/the-side-hustle-transformation-blueprint-tickets-1244867886359
Duration:00:03:48
EP # 193 - The Art of Hair Sculpting: Building an International Brand Through Social Media with Lina Waled
3/21/2025
Join Maggie Perotin as she interviews Lina Waled, an innovative haircutting specialist who transformed her career from a psychology graduate to an international hair artist and content creator. In this episode, discover how following your creative intuition can lead to unexpected success and business growth.
Key Highlights:
• Lina's unique journey from a psychology degree to becoming a sought-after hairstylist
• How she developed her signature razor-cutting technique and "sculpted hair" concept
• Strategic approach to content creation across YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok
• Tips for relocating a service-based business internationally
• Managing creative entrepreneurship while maintaining focus on business goals
Topics Covered:
[00:00:00] - Introduction and Lina's background
[00:02:00] - The story behind becoming a hairstylist
[00:04:00] - Developing unique razor-cutting techniques
[00:08:00] - Content creation strategy across different platforms
[00:12:00] - Relocating from Canada to Dubai
[00:15:00] - Managing creativity and business focus
[00:19:00] - The importance of business coaching and support
Key Takeaways:
• Different social media platforms require different approaches:
• Success strategies for creative entrepreneurs:
Featured Guest: Lina Waled (@linadoeshair)
Haircutting specialist and content creator based in Dubai, known for her innovative razor-cutting technique and viral hair content.
Resources Mentioned:
• Instagram: @linadoeshair
• Diamond Effect Group Coaching Program
Follow Lina on Instagram @linadoeshair to see her amazing hair transformations and content creation strategies in action.
Duration:00:27:44
MM 193 - Why Your Marketing Isn't Working (And How to Fix It)
3/17/2025
Have you ever wondered if you're just spinning your wheels with your marketing strategies? 🤔
In this Maggie's Moment, I'm breaking down the three critical elements that determine whether a marketing strategy you picked is truly working.
Learn why some business owners succeed with the exact same strategies that others claim "don't work" - and how you can be on the winning side!
Save epsiode for when you need a reminder about:
✨ The right timeline for strategy evaluation
✨ Smart implementation techniques
✨ The game-changing role of expert feedback
Duration:00:04:20