Work For Humans

Marty Cagan was ten years into his engineering career when he began questioning the purpose of his work. Frustrated with the products he was building, he wondered why they were necessary—but soon, he realized that asking "why" was the job of the product manager, not the engineer. So, he became one. Not just any product manager, but a leading expert in the field. Now, through Silicon Valley Product Group, Marty helps companies transform the work behind their products to build meaningful results. Marty Cagan is a well-known product management expert, author, and partner at Silicon Valley Product Group (SVPG). With decades of experience, he has held leadership roles at companies like eBay, Netscape Communications, and HP. In this episode, Dart and Marty discuss: - Key elements of top product teams - Best practices in product management - Capabilities and responsibilities of a product manager - The core principles of product culture - How processes can kill companies - 3 non-negotiables for product managers - And other topics… Marty Cagan is a well-known product management expert, author, and partner at Silicon Valley Product Group (SVPG). He is best known for his book Inspired: How to Create Products Customers Love, which is widely regarded as a key resource in product management. With decades of experience, including leadership roles at companies like eBay, Netscape Communications, and HP, Marty has a deep understanding of what it takes to build successful products. He is recognized for his emphasis on creating empowered product teams, focusing on solving customer problems, and building a strong product culture. Marty is a graduate of the University of California at Santa Cruz and the Stanford University Executive Institute. His latest book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model, explores how successful product organizations operate and provides insights on transforming companies into ones that consistently deliver great products. Resources mentioned: Transformed, by Marty Cagan: https://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Becoming-Product-Driven-Company-Silicon/dp/1119697336 Empowered, by Marty Cagan: https://www.amazon.com/Empowered-Ordinary-People-Extraordinary-Products/dp/B08MV6VRGY Inspired, by Marty Cagan: https://www.amazon.com/Inspired-Marty-Cagan-audiobook/dp/B07BDQVC45 The Song of Significance, by Seth Godin: https://www.amazon.com/Song-Significance-New-Manifesto-Teams/dp/B0BWPSHCXS Loved, by Martina Lauchengco: https://www.amazon.com/Loved-Rethink-Marketing-Tech-Products/dp/B09WFRB5TX Connect with Marty: www.svpg.com

Work for Humans has long advocated for employees to be seen as customers, but we've faced resistance from traditional programs that churn out MBAs focused on profits and the bottom line. This perspective overlooks a critical point: companies risk losing money and innovation if they don’t put employees at the center of their decisions. In a surprising turn, author and professor Stephan Meier has partnered with Columbia Business School to release The Employee Advantage. Through detailed case studies, this book demonstrates how embracing an employee-centric approach leads to superior business outcomes. Stephan Meier is a leading global expert at the intersection of behavioral economics, business strategy, and the future of work. He is currently the James P. Gorman Professor of Business Strategy and Chair of the Management Division at Columbia Business School. In this episode, Dart and Stephan discuss: - Key drivers of customer and employee centricity - The reasons behind rising customer expectations - Leadership mindsets for employee well-being - Customers vs. employees in earnings calls - Case studies of employee-centric models - Lessons from employee segmentation - The need for “just-right tasks” in the workplace - The role of the manager in an employee-customer model - And other topics… Stephan Meier is a leading global expert at the intersection of behavioral economics, business strategy, and the future of work. He is currently the James P. Gorman Professor of Business Strategy and Chair of the Management Division at Columbia Business School. Stephan is also the author of The Employee Advantage, which demonstrates how employee-centric companies drive superior business outcomes. With a master’s degree in history, economics, and political science, and a doctorate from the University of Zurich, Stephan’s research has been published in journals such as the American Economic Review and Management Science, as well as outlets like the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Bloomberg, and BBC. Prior to his tenure at Columbia, he was the first senior economist for the Center for Behavioral Economics and Decision-Making at the Federal Reserve Bank. Resources mentioned: The Employee Advantage, by Stephan Meier: https://www.amazon.com/Employee-Advantage-Putting-Workers-Business-ebook/dp/B0CTZCM238 Connect with Stephan: www.StephanMeier.com

Work for Humans has always been about designing with the employee in mind, but many designers mistakenly focus on objects rather than the actions those objects should create. This leads to falling back on traditional roles and routines when there is actually more choice out there. Inspired by the power of designing for action instead of things, WFH connected with Stephanie Goia and Melanie Kahl—two design strategists dedicated to human-centered organizational design. Together, they’re creating a pattern language library, offering a resource that encourages more choice and innovation to all designers. In this episode, Dart, Stephanie, and Melanie discuss: - Human-centered organizational design practice - Pattern language in design - Designing for verbs instead of things - What is designable and what isn’t - 5 key categories of pattern language - Design lessons from education and biological systems - Holding spaces for participatory design - And other topics… Stephanie Goia is a partner and lead design strategist at Future Work Design, a firm dedicated to transforming workplaces through innovative design. With over 15 years of experience in consulting and education, she specializes in organizational design and human-centered practices. Stephanie also serves as the Lab Director of EitherOrg and as an Executive MBA instructor at the University of Oregon, where she furthers her commitment to participatory design and systemic change. Melanie Kahl is an innovation leader and strategist with over 15 years of experience designing programs and spaces that foster human flourishing. She previously launched Meta's first Community-in-Residence program and led projects with global organizations like the Gates Foundation and USAID. Melanie holds a degree from Northwestern University and is an adjunct professor at the School of Visual Arts and the Copenhagen Institute of Interaction Design. Resources mentioned: Seeing Like a State, by James Scott: https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153 A Pattern Language, by Christopher Alexander: https://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Language-Buildings-Construction-Environmental/dp/0195019199 Dark Matter Labs: https://darkmatterlabs.org/ The Edge of the Sea, by Rachel Carson: https://www.amazon.com/Edge-Sea-Rachel-Carson/dp/0395924960 Connect with Stephanie & Melanie: www.futurework.design www.eitherorg.org Stephanie LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniegioia/ www.MelanieKahl.com Melanie’s Instagram: @melanie_kahl Melanie’s X: @melaniekahl

Architecture has traditionally centered on buildings, often overlooking the most crucial element—people. Urban designer Blaine Merker sees this as a missed opportunity. As Partner, Director, and Head of Climate Action at the Gehl research consultancy, Blaine aims to shift the industry’s focus. By guiding companies to adopt community-centered design practices, he’s working to transform urban spaces, ensuring that people—not just structures—are at the heart of every project. In this episode, Dart, Blaine, and Alice discuss: - The origin and mission of Gehl - Shaping behavior through empirical evidence and design - Prioritizing people over buildings in architecture - In-between spaces and why companies should invest in them - The norms created by a space - Designing for serendipity, connection, and collaboration - Integrating ecology into corporate landscapes - And other topics… Blaine Merker is Partner, Director, and Head of Climate Action at Gehl, an urban design and research consultancy dedicated to enhancing urban environments for everyday people. At Gehl, Blaine leads the company’s private sector work, focusing on helping companies be good urban citizens. During his career, he has managed public and institutional portfolios, taught at the University of California, Berkeley, and led a landscape architectural practice. Prior to Gehl, Blaine was partner and founder of Rebar Art and Design Studio, where he combined art, design, and activism to transform urban spaces. Alice Katter is a Work Culture & Community Designer and Consultant and founder of Out of Office Network, a pioneering research and design lab and hub. Resources mentioned: Rebar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebar_Art_and_Design_Studio Insurgent Public Space: https://www.routledge.com/Insurgent-Public-Space-Guerrilla-Urbanism-and-the-Remaking-of-Contemporary-Cities/Hou/p/book/9780415779661 Rebar’s Absurd Tactics in Generous Urbanism: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/mono/10.4324/9780203093009-10/taking-place-rebar-absurd-tactics-generous-urbanism-jeffrey-hou Life Between Buildings, by Jan Gehl: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Between-Buildings-Using-Public/dp/1597268275 Immersion, by Paul Zak: https://www.amazon.com/Immersion-Science-Extraordinary-Source-Happiness/dp/1544531958 How to Study Public Life, by Jan Gehl: https://www.amazon.com/How-Study-Public-Life-Gehl/dp/1610914236 Paved Paradise, by Henry Graber: https://www.amazon.com/Paved-Paradise-Parking-Explains-World/dp/B0BBXGL7QT/ref=sr_1_1?sr=8-1 Connect with Blaine: www.GehlPeople.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blainemerker/

Remote, hybrid, and from-home work options are here to stay, but there’s more to work flexibility than just location. Leadership advisor and author Brian Elliott has found that most employees want more control over their work, from when they work to how their success is measured; It’s time to redefine and fully embrace flexible work. In his recent book, How the Future Works, Brian provides a blueprint for using flexible work to truly unlock individual potential. Brian Elliott has over two decades of experience successfully leading teams at companies like Google and Slack. He is a LinkedIn Top Voice, one of Forbes’ “Future of Work 50,” and the Executive Leader of Future Forum, a think tank that focuses on the future of work. In this episode, Dart and Brian discuss: - Changing leaders’ experiences around distributed work - Defining the purpose behind a company’s work style - Strategies to level the playing field for employees - Measuring outcomes based on teamwork - How to create a culture of connection from any location - Prioritizing schedule flexibility over geographic flexibility - Demographic shifts in remote work - And other topics… Brian Elliott is an esteemed author, speaker, and leadership advisor, currently serving as the Executive Leader of Future Forum, a think tank that focuses on the future of work. With almost three decades of experience in leadership, he has successfully led teams and built companies both as a startup CEO and as an executive at Google and Slack. Brian holds degrees from Northwestern University and Harvard Business School. He is the bestselling author of How the Future Works, a LinkedIn Top Voice, and has been recognized as one of Forbes’ “Future of Work 50.” His insights have been featured in publications such as Fortune, Harvard Business Review, and Time. Resources mentioned: How the Future Works, by Brian Elliott: https://www.amazon.com/How-Future-Works-Leading-Flexible-ebook/dp/B09YN2J6XZ Connect with Brian: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/belliott/ www.FutureForum.com

Hundreds of thousands of college graduates were promised that more learning meant more earning – but they’re now facing a harsh new reality. AI, outsourcing, and a shifting economy have created an oversupply of educated workers, leading to widespread feelings of betrayal and crushing student debt. Human capital is not delivering on its promise. Phillip Brown, a distinguished sociologist, author, and professor, is on a mission to redefine human capital in an age of new technology and limited quality jobs. In his latest book, Death to Human Capital, he calls for a new paradigm to rethink how we view labor supply, demand, and returns. Phillip is a Distinguished Research Professor at Cardiff University. He has authored 17 books and more than 100 publications, critically examining the relationship between education, social mobility, and economic inequality on a global scale. In this episode, Dart and Phil discuss: - The rise and false promise of human capital theory - The oversupply of graduates and economic betrayal - Outsourcing knowledge work and the impact of AI - Labor scarcity vs. job scarcity - The definition of a quality job - The new paradigm - Rethinking labor supply, demand, and returns - Phil’s specific policy recommendations - And other topics… Phillip Brown is a British sociologist, author, and Distinguished Research Professor at Cardiff University. With over three decades of experience, his work critically examines the relationship between education, social mobility, and economic inequality on a global scale. His latest book, The Death of Human Capital, argues against the false promise of human capital theory and redefines it in the context of AI, outsourcing, and job quality. Phillip holds a Ph.D. from Swansea University and is a Fellow of the Academy of Social Sciences. He has authored 17 books and over 100 articles and reports, and has delivered keynote presentations in over 17 countries, including at the World Bank, International Labour Organization, and European Union. Resources mentioned: The Death of Human Capital, by Phillip Brown: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Human-Capital-Promise-Disruption/dp/0190644303 The Global Auction, by Phillip Brown: https://www.amazon.com/Global-Auction-Promises-Education-Incomes/dp/0199731683/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&sr=1-1 Connect with Phil: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phillip-brown-23b60316/?originalSubdomain=uk Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?user=O9LeQNwAAAAJ&hl=en

We tend to use the word ritual to talk about everyday routines. For instance, we have our ritualistic cup of coffee in the morning. But rituals are much more than just repetitive actions. True rituals carry deep meaning, emotion, and a promise of transformation. As a professional ritual designer, Tiu De Haan has designed rituals in countless forms. She took on the heavy task of designing a ritual to unite families of organ donors with organ recipients. She designed a ritual to help a man reach peace with the death of his twin brother who died at birth. And she's created rituals to help teams bond, think outside the box, and do their best work. Tiu De Haan is a workshop facilitator, inspirational speaker, consultant, curator, and ritual designer. She has created and facilitated experiential workshops for almost two decades, working with clients like Google, Nike, the Ministry of Justice, Bank of America, and BBC. In this episode, Dart and Tiu discuss: - How to design a meaningful ritual - The difference between a habit, routine, and ritual - How rituals can inspire creativity and new ideas - The components of effective rituals - Smaller rituals you can incorporate at work - Team-building rituals - The role of the “keeper of the rituals” at work - And other topics… Tiu De Haan is a workshop facilitator, curator, inspirational speaker, and ritual designer. She has created and facilitated experiential workshops for over 17 years, including her year-long mentorship program called The Path. As a ritual designer and consultant, she has worked with clients like Google, Nike, the Ministry of Justice, L’Oréal, Bank of America, the Centre for Quantum Photonics at Bristol University, and BBC, among others. Connect with Tiu: www.Tiudehaan.com

In the modern workplace, constant change is the norm. One week, teams are navigating a new project management system; the next, they need to adapt to a new organizational chart. Even office layouts seem to change overnight to match the company’s latest pivot. While change may be the new normal, leadership expert Ashley Goodall questions its true benefits. In his latest book, The Problem with Change, he highlights the pitfalls of constant change and advocates for the pursuit of stability instead. Ashley Goodall is a leadership expert, consultant, and author who has spent his career exploring large organizations from the inside out. He is the former Senior Vice President at Cisco and former Director and Chief Learning Officer at Deloitte. In this episode, Dart and Ashley discuss: - Cognitive and emotional effects of constant workplace change - Consultants’ role in creating change - The unique world of an executive - Improving something versus changing everything - Differences between fear and anxiety at work - The psychological impacts of layoffs - The fundamental task of leadership - HR’s role as the bridge between leaders and the frontline - Measuring performance without ratings - And other topics… Ashley Goodall is a leadership expert, consultant, and author who has spent his career exploring large organizations from the inside out. Ashley most recently served as former Senior Vice President at Cisco, where he led organizations focused on leadership, teams, and research. Prior to Cisco, he also served as Director and Chief Learning Officer at Deloitte. Ashley’s books include Nine Lies About Work and The Problem with Change, the former of which was selected as one of Amazon’s best business and leadership books during its release year. Ashley has also written for Harvard Business Review, including the most popular article of 2019, “The Feedback Fallacy.” He holds his BA in Music from the University of Oxford and his MBA from the Columbia Business School. Resources mentioned: The Problem with Change, by Ashley Goodall: https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Change-Essential-Nature-Performance/dp/0316560278 The Safety Signal Hypothesis by Martin Seligman and Yitzchak Binik: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003150404-7/safety-signal-hypothesis-martin-seligman-yitzchak-binik The Anatomy of Genres, by John Truby: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Genres-Story-Forms-Explain/dp/0374539227 Connect with Ashley: www.AshleyGoodall.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygoodall/

Industrial capitalism has treated workers like marionettes breaking down work into discreet, disconnected, repeatable actions. It loves uniformity and people who do what they're told. Seth Godin’s new book, The Song of Significance, challenges us to break free of these limiting mental models, many of which are still baked into how we work. Seth Godin is an author, entrepreneur, and marketing expert whose past clients include AOL, Microsoft, Penguin, and Random House. His 20 bestselling books, Ted Talks, personal blog, and altMBA program have empowered millions of professionals to drive meaningful change at work. In this episode, Dart and Seth discuss: - The Song of Significance - Choosing and creating jobs of value instead of production - Eliminating drudgery from work - How the industrial revolution shaped work, education, and society - The power of small connections and communities in marketing - False proxies in the hiring process - The hiring method that lowers turnover and increases productivity - Criticizing work instead of the worker - And other topics… Seth Godin is a highly influential author, entrepreneur, and marketing expert whose achievements have transformed how we think about business and personal development. His company, Yoyodyne, created the first ethical commercial email and was later sold to Yahoo!, where Seth became the VP of Direct Marketing. He later founded several other successful companies, working with clients such as AOL, Microsoft, Penguin, and Random House. Seth has written 20 bestselling books translated into more than 35 languages, including Permission Marketing, Purple Cow, and, most recently, The Song of Significance. His TED Talks and personal blog have amassed millions of views, and his online workshop, altMBA, has empowered thousands of professionals to drive meaningful change in their industries. He is also the founding editor of The Carbon Almanac, a global almanac on climate created by hundreds of volunteers from over 40 countries. Resources Mentioned: The Song of Significance, by Seth Godin: https://www.amazon.com/Song-Significance-New-Manifesto-Teams/dp/0593715543 The Ministry for the Future, by Kim Stanley Robinson: https://www.amazon.com/Ministry-Future-Kim-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0316300136 The Carbon Almanac, by Seth Godin and The Carbon Almanac Network: https://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Almanac-Its-Not-Late/dp/B09XBYL7J3 Connect with Seth: Blog: https://seths.blog/ AI Bot: https://seths.blog/bot/ Seth’s latest book: https://seths.blog/song/

The last two financial crises resulted in recessions, financial market instability, and high unemployment rates, but one group of companies proved resilient. Benefit Corporations – businesses that balance profit with social and environmental impact – experienced crisis attrition rates of less than 5%. Bart Houlahan, a co-founder of B Lab, joins Work for Humans to share why companies that invest in people outperform in their field. Bart Houlahan is Partner at Irrational Capital, the first firm to quantitatively measure the impact of corporate culture on a company’s stock price. He is also co-founder of B Lab, a nonprofit organization that seeks to solve social and environmental problems while driving profitability. Currently, there are over 6,000 certified B Corporations across 150 industries in 80+ countries. In this episode, Dart and Bart discuss: - The foundation and purpose behind Irrational Capital - Why companies that treat people well outperform - Corporate culture as a new investment factor - Bart’s take on the rise and fall of AND 1 - The 3 main components of a Benefit Corporation - How B Corps establish strong governance - The long-term benefits of stakeholder capitalism - And other topics… Bart Houlahan is Partner at Irrational Capital and one of the co-founders of B Lab, a nonprofit organization that seeks to solve social and environmental problems while driving profitability. Currently, there are over 6,000 certified B Corporations across 150 industries in over 80 countries. Prior to B Lab, Bart was president at AND 1, where he helped to finance, operate, and scale the business to $250 MM in brand revenues while focusing on company values and corporate culture. Bart is a graduate of Stanford University. During his career, he was also an investment banker with Stonebridge Associated, BNY Associates, and Prudential-Bache Securities. Bart is a Henry Crown Fellow of the Aspen Institute and serves as an Advisory Board Member of the Fuqua Center for the Advancement of Social Entrepreneurship (CASE), the Wharton Impact Investing Initiative, and the G8 Impact Measurement Working Group. Connect with Bart: B Lab: www.bcorporation.net Irrational Capital: www.irrational.capital

Most of us have preconceived notions about work, workers and employment that are so fundamental to how we think that we don’t notice them. The thing is, such preconceptions shape how large parts of society understand and solve problems. So when a problem is poorly framed, some potentially great solutions can’t be heard. In a previous episode we heard from Nathanial Kendall Taylor, CEO of the Frameworks Institute describing how his company helps non profits reframe problems in order to transform public thinking and enact social change. The Frameworks Institute has just released initial findings on a multi year initiative designed to change the narrative on work and labor. Today we are talking to Director of Research Bec Sanderson who led the effort to learn more about existing frames of work, and ways in which we might disrupt them to bring forward new frames and open doors to new solutions. Bec Sanderson serves as Director of Research at FrameWorks Institute. Her research has been featured in Frontiers in Psychology, The Guardian, Vice, and The Psychologist magazine. In this episode, Dart and Bec discuss: - How to reframe a concept to create new outcomes - Tracking American thoughts on the economy and work - Labor system design issues - The nature of recessive and dominant mindsets - Finding the root cause of a perspective - Alternative work systems and feasible ways to get there - Competitive framing versus solidarity framing - Whether or not we have to work to survive - And other topics… Rebecca Sanderson is a seasoned researcher and writer, currently serving as Director of Research at FrameWorks Institute. With over a decade of experience in framing research, Bec has led mixed-methods research on climate justice, anti-racism, equality, values, and – more recently – labor systems. Her work has been featured in Frontiers in Psychology, The Guardian, Vice, and The Psychologist magazine. Bec holds her MA in Psychology and Philosophy from the University of Edinburgh. Resources mentioned: Work Won’t Love You Back, by Sarah Jaffe: https://www.amazon.com/Work-Wont-Love-You-Back/dp/1568589395 Connect with Bec: https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/person/bec-sanderson/ https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/work-shift-landing-page/

Christine Renaud always felt destined to be a teacher, but after training in education, she came to a disturbing realization – traditional schools were not created to develop students effectively. Determined to better support students’ learning, growth, and happiness, Christine founded Braindate, a pioneering technology company that has created transformative conversations and experiences for over a million participants in 100 countries. Christine is a distinguished keynote speaker, Startup Canada’s “Entrepreneur of the Year,” and the CEO and founder of Braindate. Using a background in education and a Master’s education from Harvard, she aims to create innovative technologies, spaces, and books that facilitate meaningful learning. In this episode, Dart and Christine discuss: - Unschooling, home-schooling, and alternative education - The philosophy and origins of Braindate - The relationship between Anarchism and education - Benefits of peer-to-peer learning - Using deep networking in different social contexts - Creating a business that reflects your ideals - Hurdles to collaborative learning - And other topics… Christine Renaud is the CEO and founder of Braindate, a pioneering technology company that has created transformative conversations and experiences for over a million participants in 100 countries. Using her background in education and Master’s education at Harvard, she has dedicated her career to creating innovative technologies, spaces, and books that facilitate meaningful learning. A passionate advocate for women in leadership and technology, Christine has been recognized as one of the "Most Innovative People in the Events Industry" by Bizbash, "Entrepreneur of the Year" by Startup Canada, and among the "Canadian Inspiring Fifty." She is also a sought-after keynote speaker, presenting at international events such as IBTM World (Barcelona, Spain), the World Innovation Summit in Education (Doha, Qatar), Morgan Stanley Women’s Leadership Summit (Chicago, USA), and Tech Open Air (Berlin, Germany). Connect with Christine: www.Braindate.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinerenaud

Despite their revolutionary zeal, followers of Marx have failed to create real economic democracies, frequently ending up with one-party systems that mirror the capitalist structures they sought to overthrow. A compelling alternative exists: a modern vision for economic democracy and employee-owned cooperatives. By examining the historical missteps and unveiling innovative approaches, we discover how true democratic firms can thrive today. David Ellerman is a distinguished economist, philosopher, and author with a career focused on the crossroads of economics, philosophy, and organizational theory. He has held prominent roles, such as an economic advisor at the World Bank, where he played a key role in shaping development policy and institutional reforms. Before his time at the World Bank, David was a visiting scholar at the University of California, Riverside, and lectured at Boston University. In this episode, Dart and David discuss: - The historical context of labor contracts and alienation - Differences between alienable and inalienable rights - The link between performance management systems and American slavery - The flawed basis of Marxist and traditional economic theories - Real-world examples of democratic firms and worker cooperatives - The evolution and impact of ESOPs (Employee Stock Ownership Plans) - The psychological cost of layoffs in an organization - The role of economic theories in shaping organizational practices - And other topics… David Ellerman is a renowned economist, philosopher, and author who has dedicated his career to exploring the intersections of economics, philosophy, and organizational theory. David has held influential positions, including serving as an economic advisor at the World Bank, where he contributed to development policy and institutional reforms. Prior to his tenure at the World Bank, he also served as a visiting scholar at the University of California, Riverside, and as a lecturer at Boston University. David's books include Helping People Help Themselves and The Democratic Worker-Owned Firm, both of which have been highly regarded in the fields of economics and organizational theory. He has also written extensively for academic journals and popular outlets, contributing to the discourse on economic development, property theory, and worker ownership. David holds his BA in Mathematics from MIT and his PhD in Economics from Boston University. Resources mentioned: Helping People Help Themselves by David Ellerman: https://www.amazon.com/Helping-People-Help-Themselves-Alternative-ebook/dp/B071FH7C9Y/ The Democratic Worker-Owned Firm by David Ellerman: https://www.amazon.com/Democratic-Worker-Owned-Firm-Routledge-Revivals/dp/1138892653/ Mondragon Corporation: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/ Anna's Archive: https://annas-archive.gs/? Connect with David: Website: https://www.ellerman.org/

Kentaro Toyama spent a decade designing technologies to fight global poverty and improve education and health. As co-founder of Microsoft Research India lab, he made a troubling discovery – innovative technologies can’t create change on their own. Realizing that social progress depends more on people than on the technology they use, Kentaro became a self-proclaimed “geek heretic” who now teaches others the importance of putting people over tech. Kentaro Toyama is W.K. Kellogg Professor of Community Information at the University of Michigan, a fellow of the Dalai Lama Center at MIT, and author of Geek Heresy. Kentaro is also the co-founder of Microsoft Research India, where he helped grow the lab into 60 full-time research staff. In this episode, Dart and Kentaro discuss: - Why technology needs a human touch to succeed - Kentaro’s leadership at Microsoft Research India - The 10 fallacies of technology - Why the most important areas of focus are unmeasurable - The pitfalls of focusing on the end-goal - How to create societal change - Innovation versus tried-and-true approaches - The law of amplification - 3 elements of intrinsic growth - And other topics… Kentaro Toyama is W.K. Kellogg Professor of Community Information at the University of Michigan School of Information, a fellow of the Dalai Lama Center for Ethics and Transformative Values at MIT, and author of Geek Heresy: Rescuing Social Change from the Cult of Technology. Before moving to Michigan, Kentaro co-founded Microsoft Research India, where he helped grow the lab into 60 full-time research staff. Kentaro received his PhD in Computer Science from Yale and his bachelors in mathematics from Harvard University. He went on to establish the Technology for Emerging Markets research group, which investigates how the world’s poorest communities interact with technology and ways to support socioeconomic development. Kentaro is also a former researcher for UC Berkeley and former co-editor-in-chief of the Information Technologies and International Development journal. Resources mentioned: Geek Heresy, by Kentaro Toyama: https://www.amazon.com/Geek-Heresy-Rescuing-Social-Technology/dp/161039528X Connect with Kentaro: www.kentarotoyama.org

Work for Humans wants to understand what people want from work – but every perspective is different. One person’s dream job is another person’s nightmare, making it challenging to define fulfilling work. Derek Sivers captures this struggle in his book, How to Live, which presents 27 drastically different yet equally valid life views. Through his work, Derek guides others in shaping their own meaningful and unique lives. Derek Sivers is an author, entrepreneur, and speaker known for founding CD Baby, the largest seller of independent music of its time. After selling CD Baby for $22 million in 2008 and donating all the money to charity, Derek began writing and sharing his insights on business, creativity, and living a fulfilling life. In this episode, Dart and Derek discuss: - How our beliefs direct our actions - The 27 ways to live from Derek’s book - Crafting a company’s personality - Using beliefs as a listening tool at work - Derek’s biggest surprise in writing How to Live - Nature vs. nurture - Data models as philosophical experiences - And other topics… Derek Sivers is an author, entrepreneur, and speaker known for founding CD Baby, once the largest seller of independent music. Derek sold CD Baby for $22M in 2008 and donated all the money to charity, transitioning to writing and sharing insights on business, creativity, and personal development. His books, such as How to Live, offer practical advice and philosophical reflections on living a meaningful life. His latest book, Useful Not True, will be released in 2024. Resources mentioned: How to Live, by Derek Sivers: https://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Conflicting-Answers-Question/dp/B09JBMN6Q7 Useful Not True, by Derek Sivers: https://sive.rs/u “50 Conversations in Bangalore and Chennai,” by Derek Sivers: https://sive.rs/meet-chbg Connect with Derek: https://sive.rs/

Paul Zak has been on a quest for two decades to understand the neuroscience of human connection, human happiness, and effective teamwork. From the Pentagon to Fortune 500 boardrooms to the rainforest of Papua New Guinea, Paul’s research has now led him to found Immersion Neuroscience, the first company to track and measure real-time immersion in experiences. His latest book, Immersion, uses 50,000 brain measurements to show readers how to create high-impact marketing, entertainment, training, customer experiences, and employee experiences. Paul J. Zak is an acclaimed professor, speaker, and neuroscientist who is ranked in the top 0.3% of most-cited scientists worldwide. During his career, he started the interdisciplinary fields of neuroeconomics, neuromanagement, and neuromarketing. Paul has written three general audience books, is a 5-time TED speaker with over two million views, and has spoken to audiences across 30 countries, including recent talks at NATO Supreme Headquarters, Google, Facebook, and Harvard University. In this episode, Dart and Paul discuss: - What it means to be immersed in your work experience - Work as a social-emotional hub - How oxytocin creates trust, empathy, and care at work - 2 things you need to create an extraordinary experience - The research behind effective advertising - Neuromanagement - The connection between autonomy, mastery, and job satisfaction - Scientific reasons why dogs are better than cats - And other topics… Paul J. Zak is an acclaimed professor, speaker, and neuroscientist who is ranked in the top 0.3% of most-cited scientists with over 180 published papers and more than 19,000 citations to his research. His two decades of research have taken him from the Pentagon to Fortune 500 boardrooms to the rainforest of Papua New Guinea. During his career, he has also started several interdisciplinary fields including neuroeconomics, neuromanagement, and neuromarketing. He has written three general audience books, is a 5-time TED speaker with over two million views, and has spoken to audiences across 30 countries. Paul is the founder of Immersion Neuroscience, the first company to track and measure immersion in experiences in real time. His latest book, Immersion, identifies the neurologic basis for extraordinary experiences and uses 50,000 brain measurements to show readers how to create high-impact marketing, entertainment, training, customer experiences, and employee experiences. Paul holds his doctorate in economics from the University of Pennsylvania and completed post-doctoral training in neuroimaging at Harvard University. He has taught at Caltech, Arizona State University, UC Riverside, and USC Law and is a current professor at Claremont Graduate University. Resources mentioned: Immersion, by Paul J. Zak: https://www.amazon.com/Immersion-Science-Extraordinary-Source-Happiness/dp/1544531958 Connect with Paul: https://www.getimmersion.com/ https://pauljzak.com/

Matt Higgins was a struggling teen, working at McDonald’s for $3.75/hr to put food on the table for his ailing mother. When he saw the pay increase offered to college students, he decided to do something unorthodox; he dropped out of high school, got his GED, and enrolled in college. Adults tried to talk him out of it, but Matt knew this was the right choice for him. This was Matt's first "burn the boats" moment, but it wasn't his last. In fact, Matt believes this burn-the-boats mindset has defined his career, and has led him to places like Shark Tank, Harvard Business School, and beyond. Today, he joins us on Work For Humans to discuss the Burn the Boats philosophy. Matt is the co-founder and CEO of RSE Ventures, a private equity firm that incubates and invests in enterprises like the International Champions Cup, RESY, and the Drone Racing League. He is the recipient of the Ellis Island Medal of Honor, a current executive fellow at Harvard Business School, and the author of Burn the Boats. In this episode, Dart and Matt discuss: - How backup plans subvert our potential - Emotional intelligence and intuition in decision-making - Using anxiety to drive us - Assessing opportunity costs - Extracting value from negative situations - Acting early and taking risks for greater results - Elon Musk and Twitter - And other topics… Matt Higgins is an operator, investor, business builder, and co-founder and CEO of RSE Ventures. Matt Began his career as the youngest press secretary in New York City, later becoming an executive for the New York Jets and the Miami Dolphins. As CEO of RSE Ventures, Matt and co-founder Stephen Ross have helped establish enterprises like the International Champions Cup, RESY, and the Drone Racing League. Matt received his bachelor’s degree from Queens College and his JD from Fordham University. He was a guest shark on ABC’s Shark Tank and is an executive fellow at Harvard Business School. In 2019, Matt received the Ellis Island Medal of Honor for making it his mission to share his wealth of knowledge with those less fortunate. Matt recently published his first book, Burn the Boats, to continue to inspire others to toss Plan B overboard and go all in on Plan A. Resources Mentioned: Burn the Boats, by Matt Higgins: https://www.amazon.com/Burn-Boats-Overboard-Unleash-Potential/dp/006308886X Connect with Matt: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-higgins-rse/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mhiggins/?hl=en www.BurntheBoatsBook.co

Work for Humans host Dart Lindsley experienced a distressing moment in the hospital when his father was left in a wheelchair facing a wall while awaiting radiology. This small but significant oversight in the hospital's system pointed to an issue in many major systems – a lack of human-centered care. Recognizing these widespread oversights, design and strategy expert Deirdre Cerminaro seeks to address such problems through human-centered systems thinking. By redesigning systems to prioritize human experiences, Deirdre now teaches others how to problem solve by combining systems and human-centric design. Deirdre Cerminaro is a creative strategist, IDEO U instructor, and speaker who excels in organizational design, strategy, and human-centered systems thinking. With over 15 years of experience, including her time as an architectural designer and former Executive Director at IDEO, Deirdre is dedicated to using systems design to build a more equitable future. Her notable projects range from launching a venture to close the digital skills gap in Latin America to building a global DE&I framework for a Fortune 10 Company. In this episode, Dart and Deirdre discuss: - How Deirdre designs her own experience of work - Human-Centered Systems Thinking - Real-world problems combining systems and human-centric design - Deirdre’s experience creating and scaling a K-12 school system internationally - The relationship between mental models and systems - Best practices in systems mapping - How to use the “Zoom In and Zoom Out” design tool - Managing trade-offs between stakeholders - And other topics… Deirdre holds a B.A. in Cognitive Science and an MBA from Yale University. Beyond her professional achievements, Deirdre spends as much time as possible outdoors. She has cycled across the U.S. twice and also hiked the 211-mile John Muir Trail. Resources mentioned: “Got a wicked problem? First, tell me how you make toast” TED Talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/tom_wujec_got_a_wicked_problem_first_tell_me_how_you_make_toast?language=en Connect with Deirdre: Website: www.hellodeirdre.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deirdrecerminaro/ IDEO U Human-Centered Systems Thinking course: https://www.ideou.com/collections/courses/products/human-centered-systems-thinking Use Promocode SYSTEMSDESIGN for 20% before August 1st

Joe Pine has a knack for seeing workplace trends ahead of others. As a co-founder of Strategic Horizons LLP, he has helped organizations innovatively increase economic value for over three decades. Joe is a pioneer behind the experience economy, and he is now trailblazing the concept of a transformation economy in his latest book. Join us as we discuss the fifth and final economic offering and how it can impact employees and customers alike. Joseph Pine II is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker, and management advisor to Fortune 500 companies and entrepreneurial start-ups. In this episode, Dart and Joe discuss: - Joe’s latest writing project on the transformation economy - Examples of transformative experiences - The economic value of customer transformation - How to recognize different types of transformation - Work as a transformation offering - The correlation between transformation and wealth - How to create transformative experiences for individual aspirations - Joe’s outlook on the experience-design profession - And other topics… Joseph Pine II is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker, and management advisor to Fortune 500 companies and entrepreneurial start-ups. Joe is a co-founder of Strategic Horizons LLP and a lecturer at Northeastern University. His best-selling book, The Experience Economy, has been published in 15 languages and used as a company guide for over 20 years. He is now pioneering the idea of a Transformation Economy through the development of his latest book. Joe is a Senior Fellow with the Design Futures Council and the European Centre for the Experience Economy. He previously served as a Visiting Scholar with the MIT Design Lab, a professor at Duke University, a lecturer at Columbia University, and a manager with IBM. Joe has been featured in The Wall Street Journal and Harvard Business Review. His other published works include Infinite Possibility, Authenticity, and Mass Customization. Resources mentioned: The Experience Economy¸ by Joseph Pine II: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Economy-New-Preface-Authors/dp/1633697975 Mass Customization, by Joseph Pine II: https://www.amazon.com/Mass-Customization-Frontier-Business-Competition/dp/0875843727 Work, Pray, Code, by Carolyn Chen: https://www.amazon.com/Work-Pray-Code-Becomes-Religion/dp/0691219087 The Anatomy of Genres, by John Truby: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Genres-Story-Forms-Explain/dp/0374539227 The World Experience Organization Summit: www.WorldXO.org Connect with Joe: https://transformationsbook.substack.com/ www.StrategicHorizons.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joepine/

Many people offer predictions about the future of work, but only a handful are trained futurists who know how to influence that future effectively. Reanna Browne stands out by making the future of work her specialty. With a thorough academic background and a decade of experience in strategic foresight, Reanna guides public, private, and start-up companies in navigating change, cultivating resilience, and using the present to shape a more promising future of work. Reanna Browne is an academically trained futurist, former elite athlete, and the founder of Work Futures, a global consultancy firm specializing in strategic foresight. She is a leader in her field and has earned recognition as one of the “World’s Top Female Futurists” among fellow practitioners. In this episode, Dart and Reanna discuss: - The field of futures and foresight and the job of a trained futurist - The largest misunderstandings we have about the future - How to use the present to change what lies ahead - What led Reanna to study the future of work - The largest changes we see emerging around work - Steps we can take today to change the future of work - And other topics… Reanna Browne is an academically trained futurist, former elite athlete, and the founder of Work Futures, a global consultancy firm specializing in strategic foresight. With over a decade of experience in strategic workforce planning, Reanna guides public, private, and start-up organizations in navigating change, cultivating resilience, and using the present to shape a more promising future of work. She has been recognized as one of the “World’s Top Female Futurists” by fellow practitioners. Presently, Reanna serves on the Future of Work Advisory Panel for the Australian HR Institute, drawing on her extensive academic background. She holds an MA in Strategic Foresight from Swinburne University and a post-graduate qualification from the University of the Sunshine Coast in Australia. She is also a distinguished graduate of the Finland Futures Academy and the Shillington School of Graphic Design. Resources mentioned: Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned, by Kenneth O. Stanley: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objective/dp/3319155237 “The Bitter Lesson,” by Rich Sutton: http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html Enlightenment Now, by Stephen Pinker: https://www.amazon.com/Enlightenment-Now-Science-Humanism-Progress/dp/0525427570 Connect with Reanna: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reannabrowne Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurist_reanna/ Work Futures: https://workfutures.com.au/