Code 3 - The Firefighters Podcast

This edition of Code 3 is a little different than most. It’s about a Fire Chief who lost his job after he incurred the wrath of the Union Local’s officials and, ultimately, the IAFF. Scott Freitag was the chief of the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority, or CAFMA. The agency was created under Scott’s leadership when two fire districts combined under a JMA to form CAFMA in 2015. CAFMA covers 365 square miles of territory of Yavapai County, Arizona. And it serves about 100,000 residents from 12 stations. One day in August 2024, a press release showed up in email inboxes saying that the IAFF had censured Scott Freitag by a vote of 2,520 to 0. I was pretty startled to get this news because I know Scott Freitag to be an honest, decent Fire Chief who was genuinely concerned about the welfare of his firefighters. As you’ll hear, the no-confidence vote led to Scott’s firing after 11 years as Fire Chief in September 2024. How this all went down depends on whose story you believe. It may well have had little to do with firefighting and much more to do with politics and a health plan.

Are you tired of being told to “think outside the box?” Well, if you are, I have good news: today’s show is about thinking inside the box. It' about looking at structures as a series of boxes, determining which box has the active fire in it, and how to attack that fire. Boxes determine flow path in large modern residential structures. It’s an interesting idea, and it was developed for the Plano, Texas fire department by Eric Wahlberg, a 30-year veteran of Fire/Rescue and an assistant chief. He is also a Master Firefighter with the state of Texas.

One of the first tools you were taught about when you started this job is the basic ground ladder. Once you learned how to throw one, it was no big deal, right? The longer the ladder, the more firefighters get to carry it. Except… What if there’s not enough people on the fireground to do that? You might be surprised to find that the 24-foot extension ladder can safely be carried and placed by just one firefighter. Now, a lot of understaffed fire departments, especially volunteers, already know this. But if you started at a fully-staffed department, you may not have had to throw a ladder this size alone. Today’s guest runs seminars on the use of ground ladders, and this is one of his favorite topics. Kevin Weis started his career in the fire service in 2012 as a volunteer firefighter in Coldwater, Ohio. He’s been on the career side since 2014, starting in Defiance, Ohio. In 2020, he moved to the Glendale, Arizona Fire Department. Kevin’s currently a firefighter/ paramedic and specializes in TRT & Haz Mat. He’s also been a fire inspector. He teaches several hands-on-subjects, including search tactics, forcible entry, hose line management, and of course, ground ladders.

One of the least exciting jobs for a firefighter is the dreaded Community Risk Reduction assignment. In an urban environment, CRR may mean doing a meeting with the people you serve. Or maybe you’re changing smoke alarm batteries. Either of those—not exciting, but not so much work, either. But if your department covers urban and rural areas, where you could be tasked to fight a brush fire, well, now you may have to do some physical labor ... plus those meetings. Not all, or even many, departments have dedicated crews to community risk reduction. Often, CRR is one person, whose job may include other responsibilities. Today, I’m talking with one of our favorite guests, Chad Costa, about what CRR can do for your community…and what you can get out of it, too. Chad is assistant fire chief for the Petaluma, California, fire department. He has over 25 years on the job.

(This episode is a rebroadcast of a June, 2018 edition of Code 3) On June 30, 2018, the fifth anniversary of the LODD of 19 members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew at Yarnell Hill, a memorial ceremony was held in Prescott, Arizona, their home base. The brief ceremony commemorated their loss and celebrated their lives. This is the event.

Incident commanders, here are some questions for you: How much thought do you put into where you set up your command post? Is it usually on the alpha side of a structure? Why is that? Routine? Street access? What about distractions? For example, noise. That can not only give you a headache but also make you miss an urgent radio call, right? My guest on this edition of Code 3 has been considering questions like this for a while. He has suggestions for things to think about the next time you pull up to the fireground and are ready to drop that tailgate. Robby Bergerson is the executive deputy chief of the Waco, Texas Fire Department. He’s got three decades in the fire service, having served in every rank and supervising every division. He’s also a credentialed Chief Fire Officer through CPSE.

This week’s show is related to last week’s. If you haven’t heard episode 344 with Jennifer Stanislaw, go ahead and listen to it—it dovetails nicely with this one. On this episode, we’re talking about the importance of setting standards for probie training. Years ago, that training consisted of handing the probie a mop as often as a ladder. It was designed to “teach a solid work ethic.” But just as hazing has (mostly) faded away in the firehouse, new firefighters expect better training on the techniques they’ll need in the field. Their bosses expect them to know those tactics as well. That’s why today’s guest says it's important to set the bar for probies and keep raising it. He has some ideas of how to do that. Jesse Marcotte is the training chief for the Northville Township, Michigan Fire Department. He is a member of the UL FSRI Training Advisory Committee. And he served as a board member of the ISFSI. He also spoke on today’s topic at FDIC 2024.

Firefighters around the country are looking at the possibility of a new OSHA ruling very carefully. I’m talking about the two-in/two-out rule, contained in NFPA 1500. There’s a new report written by five prominent members of the fire service that says two-in/two-out doesn’t make firefighters any safer. Instead, the time wasted waiting for a RIC crew to get ready makes it more likely that civilian victims will be killed. The report uses data from Project Mayday to support this claim. It points out that when firefighters die in the line of duty, it isn’t usually in a mayday situation. It also says that if a mayday is called, it’s more likely that another interior crew member will make the save. The rule is routinely circumvented by departments that need to get inside a building but don’t have enough people on the fireground to do it. An OSHA ruling would add some enforcement teeth to NFPA 1500. The report’s titled, “Removing Two-In/Two-Out: A Modern, Data-supported Defense of Our Core Mission." It was written by Bill Carey, Sean Duffy, Nick Ledin, Chris Thompson and Scott Thompson. Sean Duffy is acting as the PIO for the group and spoke to me about the report.

From Day One in the fire service, the lecture is the standard teaching method. Sometimes, it seems like fire departments must keep Microsoft in business, what with all the PowerPoint software they must be ordering. And you know the instruction -- notice I didn’t say “learning” – keeps going like this until you retire. Want to be a Battalion Chief? There’s a lecture and PowerPoint for that. An Engineer? Yep, got it covered. Captain? Of course. Now, I know the fire service doesn’t like change. As Chief Brunacini said, "Firefighters hate two things—change and the way things are now.” But maybe it is time to teach differently. If you’ve ever lectured to a room full of Millennials or Gen Z, you know they don’t get much out of it. They’re on their phones. Here to explore some fresh ideas for teaching is Jennifer Stanislaw. She heads up the West Salem, Oregon, High School Emergency Services Program. She also has over 25 years of experience as a paramedic and volunteer firefighter.

Every firefighter who rides an engine has a favorite tool: The Halligan Bar. As nearly all young firefighters learn, it was invented in 1948 by an FDNY Deputy Chief named Hugh Halligan. Not long after that, he created the Halligan Hook. Sometimes it’s called a New York Roof Hook. This six-foot bar is a favorite of truckies who need to open up roofs. But there’s another way to use the Halligan Hook: as a rescue tool. It takes a little creativity to see a bar meant for ripping open a roof as a way to save a firefighter's life. Today’s guest is here to explain how to do it. AB Turenne is the captain of training and safety with a career department in Middlesex County, Connecticut. He’s got 25 years on the job and is a certified Level III Fire Service Instructor.

If you were among those fortunate enough to be in the audience at the opening of FDIC 2024, you heard something special. I’d say it was a call to arms… a call to take revolutionary action. Chief David Rhodes spoke for about a half-hour, laying out a case for change in the fire service. His main argument: that the fire service has become too risk-averse. That the leaders of departments are so afraid of injuries—and of course, lawsuits—that they don’t want firefighters to take any risks on the fireground. Or even in training. He said that puts citizens in danger. And he said that change needs to happen, from the bottom up. It sure won’t come from the top down. Here to discuss that with me is David Rhodes. Chief Rhodes had nearly four decades in the fire service when he retired from the Atlanta, Georgia Fire Department. He currently serves as the Editor in Chief of Fire Engineering magazine. He’s also the Educational Director for FDIC.

Fire departments around the U.S. are approaching a tipping point. At the same time career departments are seeing a drop in applicants, they’re also losing existing firefighters. This is a problem. Once upon a time, not so long ago, it was tough to get a job in the fire department. But now, fewer people line up for those spots. Maybe it’s generational, maybe it’s just a natural cycle and it’ll change. Or maybe it’s something more. Here to discuss that with me is Dr. Reggie Freeman. He’s the chief risk officer for the HAI Group, based in Cheshire, Connecticut. He’s served as the fire chief of three departments: Oakland, California, Hartfort, Connecticut and Lockheed Martin Aeronautics. He’s also a member of the board of directors of the NFPA.

There’s a constant battle between firefighters who believe that safety on the fireground precludes aggressive tactics. The opposite is also true. What’s the compromise between the two? It seems as if firefighters don’t believe that it’s possible to be both aggressive and safe. It is, of course, and my guest today is here to offer some suggestions about how you can implement both. He’s no wimp—he puts Mrs. Smith first, his crew second, and his own personal safety third. Ryan Scellick is a Captain at the City of Pasco Fire Department, in Washington State. He is the co-owner of Young Officers on Fire which puts on annual conferences, trainings, and manages a national non-profit mentorship group.

What’s potentially harder to locate victims in than a hoarder house? A stuffed-full self-storage locker. But that’s exactly what can happen. And even if the victim’s not inside at the time of the fire, their activities may have caused it. Those storage spaces are frequently climate-controlled, and they’re cheap…maybe $100 a month for a small one. That makes them seem like a great place to live for someone who can’t afford to rent an apartment. They aren’t, of course, and occupants who choose to try living in one can become the victim of a fire they can’t escape. This week, my guest tells us about his experiences with homeless people who tried to make a storage unit home…and regretted it. Tim Thompson is chief of the Georgetown, Kentucky Fire Department. He’s worked his way up over 19 years of service from firefighter to the boss. He’s also a member of the Kentucky Association of Fire Chiefs.

Are you ready for this? There’s a whole class of hazardous chemicals that can damage your hearing, and they’re by-products of your average structure fire. Yes, that’s right: When you burn home furnishings, you don’t just get carcinogens. You get “ototoxic” chemicals. Now, the PPE you wear routinely for firefighting protects against this. But—just like the stuff in smoke that causes cancer—ototoxic chemicals are a threat when you least expect them: during overhaul and even standing outside a burning structure. And when you combine exposure to ototoxins with screaming sirens and fireground noise, well, it’s no surprise that firefighters are often retiring with substantial hearing loss. Here to tell you what you need to know is Brian Daboul. He’s chief of the Mine Hill Fire Department in New Jersey. That’s a volunteer department, and Brian’s paid job is in occupational safety strategy and program development. He is also the owner of BGD Safety and Compliance, LLC, which serves industry and fire departments.

A recent study done at North Carolina State University took a look at PFAS chemicals used in turnout gear and came to some interesting conclusions. PFS layers are what give current turnout coats and pants their oil and water repellency. They're also a known carcinogen, so donning PPE made with PFAS is dangerous even before you step onto your engine or truck. Unfortunately, when the study looked at alternatives, it found that all oil repellents can also repel water, but all water repellents don’t necessarily repel oil. My guest on this show is Bryan Ormond, an assistant professor of textile engineering, chemistry and science at NC State. He also wrote up the results of the study.

One of the best ways to learn anything is by experience. A better way, though, is to learn from others’ experiences. That’s why we’re talking with today’s guest—to get some insight from someone who learned the hard way. Captain Jeremiah King has been with the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority for more than 20 years. But the story of this response takes place when he was about four years into his career. And as you’ll hear, that career—not to mention, his life—nearly came to an end one night on a structure fire in a large home. One of the best ways to learn anything is by experience. A better way, though, is to learn from others’ experiences. That’s why we’re talking with today’s guest—to get some insight from someone who learned the hard way. Captain Jeremiah King has been with the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority for more than 20 years. But the story of this response takes place when he was about four years into his career. And as you’ll hear, that career—not to mention, his life—nearly came to an end one night on a structure fire in a large home.

Anyone who has ever fought a wildland fire knows situational awareness is critical to safety and effectiveness on the fireground. But visibility, a key part of that awareness, is often limited by thick smoke in the wildland fire environment. Call it the fog of war, if you like. No matter what you call it, it’s tough to fight a fire when you can’t see through the smoke. That lack of visibility can lead to all kinds of trouble—especially vehicle accidents. Today, in this special edition of Code 3, we’ll explore one commercial product that can make the wildland environment safer for firefighters. It’s called Hypersight, built by RPX Technologies. It’s a tough, vehicle-mounted thermal imaging camera. It allows the crew in the cab to see through smoke as they drive. But it can show more than that, and as you’ll hear, it also has applications in urban firefighting settings. And joining me is Stan Cannata, to explain how the HyperSight system gives fire crews an advantage in dangerous situations.

The National Fire Protection Association seems like a pretty important organization. For example, Its reports are routinely used by fire departments to justify staffing requests. But not everyone is satisfied with how the NFPA operates. Some members of the fire service believe the standards for equipment service life are too inflexible. And there’s the question of who writes the standards in the first place. One of the NFPA’s loudest critics on social media is Bobby Eckert. He’s a Captain with the City of Camden Fire Department in New Jersey. Bobby also owns and operates Eckert Fire Tactics. We decided to ask Bobby to explain his concerns about the NFPA. We initially asked the NFPA to participate in a debate-style format with Bobby, but they declined the offer. Instead, they offered a representative who would do a one-on-one interview. We agreed to that, and I was able to ask questions of the NFPA’s Responder Technical Lead, Curt Floyd. Then we matched up Curt’s answers with Bobby’s questions.

If you’ve ever known a firefighter who committed suicide, you know how it can change your life. It may have come as a complete surprise to you. Or maybe you had been worried about the firefighter’s state of mind. There’s been a lot said and written about what we can do for ourselves to prevent suicide. But today, we’re going to talk about a program designed to help you intervene in another firefighter’s emotional crisis before it becomes a fatal one. It's called “Small Bites.” Because that’s how you fix an elephant-size problem…one small bite at a time. The program was developed by Sheena Glover. She is a captain with the Omaha, Nebraska Fire Department. She’s a 15-year veteran and holds several specialty ratings. Sheena is just the fourth Black female in the history of the department.