Post-Growth Australia Podcast-logo

Post-Growth Australia Podcast

News & Politics Podcasts

The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger. Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you. In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet. Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists. PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).




The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger. Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you. In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet. Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists. PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).




Planning for a Just Collapse with Kate Booth

It is not every day that urban planning and societal collapse are discussed in the same conversation. But for Kate Booth – activist academic and Associate Professor at the University of Tasmania, both are critical and interlinked issues. In this very educational episode, Kate talks us through the Insurgent Planning movement as well as the Just Collapse movement. At a time when Australia’s Federal Government is scrambling to build 1.2 million new homes while the recent climate data suggests that an ecological collapse is imminent, these are difficult but necessary conversations that we need to be having. Kate Booth is Associate Professor of Human Geography, and activist academic, in the School of Geography, Planning and Spatial Sciences at the University of Tasmania. Her teaching and research addresses socio-ecological inequity in the context of rapid and unprecedented global change, and she leads a ‘Critical Collapse Studies’ research program underpinned by her expertise on insurance in a changing climate. She also teaches urban and regional planning. You can read more about Kate here. ( Just Collapse is an activist platform dedicated to socio-ecological justice in face of inevitable and irreversible global collapse. You can find out more about Just Collapse here ( You can also read more about insurgent planning here ( or watch a video that Kate produced here ( An interview with Kate and Tristan Sykes is also available from Collapse Club on YouTube ( Kate is a regular contributor on the Town Planning Rebellion (TPR) Facebook Group (, which is administered and moderated by your PGAP co-hosts, Mark Allen ( Michael Bayliss ( Liked this episode and want to hear more? In 2021, PGAP recorded three episodes on the road in Tasmania, with many special guests, which can be listened to here, ( here ( and here ( You may also like our episode on Retrosuburbia with David Holgren ( Help the world to degrow by helping PGAP to grow! Share this episode with your family and friends and rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( Contact us ( with your feedback and suggestions for future topics or guests. PGAP is made possible through the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia ( The opinions of PGAP guests, including any legacies past or present, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of PGAP or SPA. Special Guest: Kate Booth.


Let’s Get Crazy with Rob Dietz from Crazy Town Podcast

Welcome to the season five premiere of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. What better way to launch our new season than with Rob Dietz, co-host of Crazy Town Podcast, ( perhaps the standard bearer of degrowth themed podcasts. (Rob Dietz). Rob is the Programs Director of Post Carbon Institute ( (PCI). A brilliant public speaker and story teller, Rob talks us through the journey of Crazy Town Podcast, which he co-hosts with colleagues Asher Miller ( Jason Bradford ( He also discusses the other initiatives and campaigns run by PCI, in addition to his unique vision of a Post-Growth future. (Crazy Town's Logo). We asked Rob to share two of his favourite Crazy Town Podcast Episodes that are linked below. We do warn you, that once you start listening to Crazy Town, you might not be able to stop! Episode 34. Fear of Death and Climate Denial, or… the Story of Wolverine and the Screaming Mole of Doom ( Episode 60. Chillin' and Killin': How Air Conditioning Has Altered Human Behavior and the Environment ( Rob would also like us to share PCI’s report: “Welcome to the Great Unraveling: Navigating the Polycrisis of Environmental and Social Breakdown (” It is quality reading and we are pleased that it is making ripples. The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room (’ from host Michael Bayliss’ band ‘Shock Octopus (’ First released in 2011, its apocalyptic tale – of a world that has become so impacted that even the billionaires who created the mess in the first place have no safe place to hide – is becoming all the more prophetic a decade later. Michael and co-host Mark have had our music recently played on the Freedom of Species radio show, here ( and here ( respectively. (The iconic cover of the 'Safe Room' single). We are also excited by the fact that Rob presented at an online Degrowth conference run by New Economy Network Australia (NENA). PGAP has interviewed NENA’s convenor Michelle Maloney twice. The video of Rob’s talk can be watched here. ( Your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are pleased to be back for season five of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We hope you like the cosmetic changes of this episode (graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea Designs with photos from Photographica). We are looking forward to another season of quality guests and topics. We have not been idle during our break. You may, for example wish to have a gander at two of our recent published articles, including: “Economic reform vital to solving housing crisi (,17646)s” - Mark Allen for Independent Australia “POPULATION GROWTH AND WEALTH INEQUALITY ARE MORE ENTWINED THAN WE THOUGHT: HERE’S WHY (” – Michael Bayliss for Population Media Center blog. We hit our record monthly listens twice in season four and with your word of mouth we can extend our...


Celebrating the 25th Anniversary of Population Media Center with Bill Ryerson

In 1998 Population Media Center ( (PMC) was formed to ‘make the stories that remake our world’. 25 years later, radio and TV shows, supported by PMC, have been heard throughout the world, including Ethiopia, Senegal and Papua New Guinea. Produced in collaboration with local communities and local scriptwriters, these shows share a common thread in that the audience are invited to consider positive family planning decisions through the role modelling of engaging and identifiable characters. PGAP was very fortunate to be joined by special guest Bill Ryerson (, President and Founder of PMC. He talks us through the ‘stories behind the stories’ of PMC's many award winning and popular projects. PGAP would like to give a shout out to Paul Winter (, who is not only on the program advisory board at PMC, but is also a Grammy winning saxophonist, whose music is inspired by the cultures and creatures of planet Earth. He kindly shared the track ‘Talkabout’ for this episode of PGAP, which we played an extract from after Bill’s interview. We would also like to give a shout-out to Cody Peluso (, Digital Advocacy & Mobilization Manager at PMC, without whom this episode would not have been possible. PGAP co-host Michael Bayliss interviewed Cody for a recent edition of the Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) newsletter ( SPA kindly supports PGAP and we encourage you to consider giving SPA a donation ( for their end of financial year donation appeal. PMC kindly provided an excerpt from the Hulu series ‘East Los High’, courtesy of Hulu, that we played at the start of this episode. A trailer for the series can be viewed on YouTube here ( We hope you will join PMC in celebrating their 25th anniversary. There are many events lined up, including their Zoom birthday party, held on Zoom on the 15th of June, which you can RSVP here ( Unfortunately for Australian listeners, this is well after midnight for us so perhaps one for the night owls. Otherwise you can keep track of PMC's activities on their website here ( Otherwise, please check out PMC’s award winning podcast, Crossing the Line ( Excellent stuff. While PMC celebrate their 25th anniversary, PGAP will be taking a very short break. This is the last episode of season 4 of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We made some changes to the format of this podcast, including welcoming co-host Mark Allen. The experiment has worked in our favour, with record number of listens in April and May. While our PGAP community continues to build, we strongly encourage our listeners to reach out and contact us with your feedback, suggestions and thoughts while we are on break. What were the episodes you loved, or not so much? What guests or topics would you like to see in season 5? We would love to hear from you, so don’t be shy in hitting the contact button ( All opinions of PGAP guests, including any past, present and future legacies, are exclusively their own and may not always reflect the views and objectives of Post-Growth Australia Podcast or Sustainable Population Australia. CLICK HERE ( to find out more about Sustainable Population Australia. You can find out more about the work of co-hosts Michael Bayliss HERE ( or Mark Allen...


Housing Crisis?? What Housing Crisis!!

Fun Fact! When your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen aren’t making brand new episodes of PGAP, they are involved in many other worthy enterprises. Michael has just co-written a brand new report “Population and the Housing Crisis”. Mark performed his debut show at the Adelaide Fringe, “The Boomer and The Doomer.” Like most things we do, this all flew under the blip of the mainstream media radar, so we took the opportunity this episode to interview each other on our respective endeavours. It is not a secret to anyone now that Australia is going through a housing emergency. With Australia one of the most unaffordable countries in the world and with many of us in severe housing stress, this reality is very tangible. As housing stress is reaching its peak, our federal government is committing to one of the largest population growth policies in recent decades. The ‘official’ stance is that the housing crisis is a supply based issue – just keep building more! There has been very little written on the ‘demand’ side of the housing equation. Michael found himself one of the few who were brave or foolhardy enough to tackle this issue alongside co-author Dr. Jane O’Sullivan, with whom Sustainable Population Australia ( commissioned to write the report ‘The Housing Crisis is a Population Growth Crisis (’ For this episode, Mark interviews Michael on the story behind the report and some of its key findings. (Boomer and the Doomer artwork by Mathisha Wahikala, Mick Thompson and Mark Allen). The housing emergency is just another in long line of emergencies – take your pick! Climate change, boiling oceans, ecological collapse, resource depletion and other fun things. It can be hard to maintain a poker face through this incessant din of human induced calamities, let alone find time to laugh. Michael interviews Mark’s recent experiences in combining political satire with stand- up comedy in his debut show at the Adelaide fringe with comedian Eric Tinker ( Combined, they performed the duo show ‘The Boomer and The Doomer’ across three sold out nights in March. We muse on bringing humour into Degrowth conversations, which has been one of PGAP’s key objectives since day one. Eric Tinker's 'MC Boomer rap' can be viewed here on YouTube ( (Ice cover artwork by Robert Smith and Mark Allen). We also take time in the episode to play a some choice tracks, 'Ice' ( and 'A Deer Caught In The Highlights (' from Mark and Michael's respective music projects, 'Counting Backwards (' and 'Shock Octopus ('. PGAP will soon be winding down for a short break between our fourth and fifth seasons. This is a perfect time to contact PGAP ( to let us know your feedback and what themes or guests you would like us to explore next time around. Our recent upswing in downloads continues - be part of this movement! Share this and other episodes to your family, friends and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts ( or your favourite platform. A big thanks to Sustainable Population Australia ( for supporting this podcast. You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss ( and Mark Allen ( at their websites. Episode time stamp: 0:00:00 - 0:03:09 Introduction 0:03:00 - 0:05:07 'Ice' by Counting Backwards 0:05:08 - 0:38:05 Housing Crisis? What Housing Crisis! 0:38:06 - 0:42:10 'A Deer Caught In The Headlights' by Shock Octopus 0:42:11 -...


MMT for Activism with Gabrielle Bond

At PGAP, we are huge fans of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). However, the question is often asked, how can an understanding of MMT, or a broader understanding of economics, help the cause when it comes to degrowth advocacy or environmental activism? For this episode, we warmly welcome Gabrielle Bond, CEO of Adelaide based Modern Money Lab and member of Extinction Rebellion, to tell us more about how MMT can inform our activism toward a better, more equitable, post-growth world. For further reading, Gabrielle recommends the short article from Jason Hickel: “DEGROWTH AND MMT: A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT. (” You can find out more about Modern Money Lab here ( Gabrielle also recommends the YouTube Video: “A Message From the Future With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (”. Modern Money Lab have just opened the first two subjects of the masters degree as stand alone subjects that anyone can take: 'Foundations of Real-World Economics' and 'Foundations of Modern Money, Institutions and Markets'. Find out more here ( PGAP has touched on MMT and ecological economics several times throughout our run. We recommend checking out the Season 3 episode “Ecological Economies and MMT with Steve Williams (” You may be also interested in the Season 2 interview with Economic Reform Australia (, who are also based in Adelaide and whose Patrons, Prof Stephanie Kelton and Prof Phil Lawn, are also actively involved with Modern Money Lab. Our co-host, Mark Allen, first worked with Gabrielle through Sustainable Prosperity, where he delivered a zoom presentation on behalf of Town Planning Rebellion. The video of the presentation may be seen here. ( In April 2023, PGAP enjoyed its highest ever monthly downloads to date, doubling its average monthly downloads. This is very encouraging considering the fact that PGAP covers critical issues that are widely ignored or suppressed by mainstream media and the mainstream political landscape. Let’s work together to build on this momentum. Subscribe to PGAP ( rate/review us on your favourite platform, such as Apple Podcasts ( Share this and other episodes widely among your networks. Contact PGAP ( give us feedback and your ideas for future episodes and guests. Want to find out more about your PGAP co-hosts? You can find out more about Michael Bayliss at his website here. ( You can find out more about Mark Allen’s other work at the Holistic Activism website ( Special Guest: Gabrielle Bond.


A Tribute to Community Groups fighting Big Overdevelopment in WA.

In the world of degrowth, the focus is often centred on the need for broad scale system change. However, it is often at the grassroots community level that real resistance against overdevelopment is truly and tangibly observed. For this very special episode of PGAP, we interview Annabel Paulley (Friends of Yakamia (, Chris Poulton (Rethink Eastlink ( and Andrew St John (Safe and Scenic Toodyay Roads ( to highlight the good work been done by community groups in South-Western Australia to fight the relentless tide of overdevelopment. Our first guest Annabel Paulley (interviewed 00:08:19 to 00:37:09) is a coordinator and key member of the Albany based Friends of Yakamia Forest ( The Friends of Yakamia have been working tirelessly to protect the titular rate payer land from being rezoned for housing and road development. The land is a fragment of the forest that once covered the northern suburbs of Albany and is home to a host of endemic and threatened plants, bird and animal species. You can find out more about Friends of Yakamia at their Facebook page here ( (Friends of Yakamia visiting state MP for Albany, Rebecca Stephens) Our second guest Chris Poulton ( interviewed 00:37:23 to 01:09:16) runs Summer Creek Restaurant and Brewery ( his family Bakers Hill, nestled in eastern side of the Perth Hills. The property and nearby Kep track have significant historical importance to Western Australia’s formative history, that will be undermined if the Eastlink highway project is passed. Find out more about Rethink Eastlink here ( You may also wish to check out the great work from the Save Perth Hills Action Group ( (Chris Poulton) Our third guest Dr Andrew St John (interviewed 01:09:32 to 01:23:54) is convenor of Safe and Scenic Toodyay Roads ( Toodyay lies on the transition between the Perth Hills and the Wheatbelt. The impact to lifestyle, legacy and the natural environment of the local scarp ecosystem is threatened by Main Roads WA and other developments (including mining and housing development). (Andrew St John) One major focus of this episode is to explore the interrelationship between the great work done at the grassroots by community action groups and the broader issue of wider system change being championed by many activists including degrowth advocates. The South-West of Western Australia is not the only region in the world in which brave citizens are defending their natural and cultural environments from the march of development, progress and concrete. Similar fights are occurring everywhere, globally, all the time. All three guests share a unique vision of their solutions to this worldwide predicament, although all are united with the view that there needs to be fundamental end to the current growth based system. Otherwise, it will be up to community groups to be perpetually putting out the spot fires. Host Michael Bayliss is joined by Mark Allen, co-host and founder of Town Planning Rebellion (, during the intro and outro. We gain his perspective on how TPR can work with local action groups to bring critical change to Australia’s broken urban planning sector. We also discuss how to have a nuanced debate on some of the thornier issues such as urban consolidation vs. urban sprawl, and visible (but seldom discussed) impacts of population growth. You can find out more about host Michael Bayliss at his website here ( and more about Mark Allen at the Holistic Activism ( website. Please support PGAP by sharing this and other episodes with your networks. Do...


EarthCare Permaculture Ghana

For this episode of PGAP, we travel (virtually) to equatorial western Africa to speak with Innocent Kelvin Coffie, youth leader and founder of EarthCare Permaculture Ghana ( Kelvin takes us on a verbal tour of the property, the successes the property has had in up skilling new generations in food self-sufficiency, and some recent challenges that the property has endured through. Kelvin also gives some insight into how the permaculture movement is taking root in Ghana, some of the unique environmental and social challenges experienced in his country and how permaculture is one solution to solving these problems. EarthCare Permaculture Foundation needs your support. For example, a donation will help the centre invest in some much needed gardening tools and building structures. The centre is looking for volunteers and other enthusiastic people to help on site or to exchange knowledge and ideas. Follow EarthCare Permaculture Ghana on Facebook ( to find out more about how you can help. If you would like to make a donation over paypal, the email address is PGAP also needs your support! Rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( your favourite podcast platform. Share this and other episodes of PGAP among your friends and networks. Contact us ( to let us know how we’re going, where we can improve, and what topics or guests you would like to see in future episodes. Host Michael Bayliss ( feels a deep connection with the African continent and the many great thinkers and amazing grassroots community movements that are making waves. PGAP has previously interviewed Kenyan resident Robert Wanalo ( in season 1 and Ugandan born Florence Blondel ( Season 2. We highly recommend listening to those episodes. PGAP has also not shied away from covering permaculture and regenerative farming. We have interviewed some big names like David Holmgren ( and Charles Massy. ( You may also be interested in our interview with Shane Simonsen (, who grows unconventionally in subtropical Queensland, or Murray Gomm (, who grows locally to PGAP in our new home town of Albany. All views, opinions, historical and present legacies of PGAP guests are exclusively theirs and may not necessarily reflect the opinions, views and legacies held by PGAP. Special Guest: Innocent Kelvin Coffie.


Solving climate change through ethical investment - with James Regulinski from Carbon Collective

In this episode of Post-Growth Australia, we interview James Regulinski, co-founder of Carbon Collective (, a company providing low-fee, diversified investment portfolios built for solving climate change. Inspired by the work of Project Drawdown, James and his business partner Zach Stein tackle climate change by encouraging investors to support environmentally friendly enterprises. For a podcast on Degrowth with a bias toward the anti-capitalist end of the spectrum, James is a very different kind of guest on PGAP and one who inspired much pithy discussion. For most of us in the post-growth movement, there can often be some tension around whether to ‘tap in’ and to use financial leverage to encourage improvements in the current system (e.g. Green investment, divestment, supporting the ‘green new deal’ etc.) Or, whether to ‘tap out’ or fight the system altogether. Hats off to James to going down the rabbit hole with me here, where we conclude that a mix of both approaches is the best way forward. That is, any change we do needs to have a transition to a Degrowth society as the modus operandi. On the other side of the coin, it is currently very difficult, if not impossible, to tap completely out of today’s growth based economic paradigm. To find out more about Carbon Collective, visit their website here ( This includes a fantastic introductory video from James. On PGAP, we’ve had a few discussions around the challenges of tapping out of the growth based system. In our interview with Dr. Alex Baumann (currently our top performing episode (, he discusses why the private housing market provides a financial barrier to opting out of the matrix. We’ve also had a few guests on who have made a successful change to off grid living (tapping out if you will). Mike Stasse ( Tasmania is one great example. Artist as Family ( near Daylesford Victoria) discuss how they made the change on a shoestring budget. Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Any feedback or ideas for future episodes? Contact us here. All views, opinions and legacies of our guests are exclusive theirs and do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP. Special Guest: James Regulinski.


Women for Conservation with Isabella Cortes Lara

On November 15 2022 the global population hit 8 billion. Despite the fact that half of all the world’s pregnancies are unplanned, any talk of global approach to family planning and reproductive health care in the global south remains controversial. So often, this is debated across the global north without including stakeholders who live in the global south and work with the issues first hand. PGAP aims to make amends for this oversight by inviting Isabella Cortes Lara to the podcast, Vice President of ‘Women for Conservation (’, who work alongside rural communities in Colombia and Nepal. An incredible artist and storyteller, Isabella shares with PGAP how W4C started, the decision to focus on family planning and reproductive healthcare as a solution to the environmental and reproductive issues affecting rural Colombia, and how her artistic and spiritual approach to life intersect and inform her activism. You can find out more about Women for Conversation here ( Please consider supporting their great work, by spreading the word or by making a donation. You can also read more W4C at the Sustainable Population Australia Newsletter here ( The full interview can be read at the SPA website here ( On this episode, we played the track ‘Aguita de Paramo” that Isabella recorded under her artist name ‘Isavibe’. You can follow Isavibe’s music at her Spotify account here ( This interview with Women for Conversation is part of a wider dialogue on mythbusting when it comes to family planning and reproductive healthcare, especially for the global south. PGAP has been an active part in this debate. In season two we spoke with Florence Blondel (, Ugandan born journalist, feminist and sustainable population advocate. In season one we spoke with CHASE Africa ( who work with communities in Kenya (a QandA with founder Robin Witt can also be read on the SPA website ( (Artwork from Isabella under the artist name 'Isavibe). Of course, this discussion is not just exclusive to the global south. In season two PGAP spoke with proud childfree women living in the USA and Australia ( We spoke with Nandita Bajaj, ( executive director of Population Balance, whose organisation aim is to counter systemic pro-natalism. Last but certainly not least, we spoke with Prof. Anne Poelina (, Chair of the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner. She brings to the table Indigenous wisdom and insight into the degrowth and population sustainability debates. The Martuwarra-Fitzroy river region is currently under much environmental stress with flash flooding in the Kimberley. Our thoughts are with all communities who live in this beautiful part of the world, human and non-human. (Image courtesy of Isavibe). PGAP is made by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia ( No strangers to tackling controversial issues, PGAP would like to take the opportunity to thank SPA for allowing us to take on the broader controversial issues of post-growth and degrowth with autonomy, including guests who may share different or opposing views on population. This is a good opportunity to remind that all perspectives and legacies of PGAP guests and their respective organisations are their own and may not always reflect those of PGAP and SPA. During the interview, Isabella referred to the fantastic work of Kate Raeworth (of doughnut economics). A link to her Ted Talk can be watched here...


Fuzzy Logic on a Fragile Planet with Rod Taylor

Rod Taylor is a multi-talented broadcaster, videographer based in Canberra. In addition to hosting the "Fuzzy Logic Science show (", he is author of the 2020 book “10 Journeys on A Fragile Planet (”. This extraordinary book details the personal journeys of extraordinary environmentalists and game changers. This episode is dedicated to the memory of Dr. Haydn Washington. Haydn was a prolific and passionate writer and speaker on sustainability, degrowth, the need for population stabilisation and denialism against both climate and population realities. He wrote or edited many books. He was active in CASSE and the Ecological Economics community. The Australian Degrowth movement owes much to Haydn’s work. A tribute to Haydn can be found on Rod’s ‘Fuzzy Logic’ science show here ( The link includes an interview that Rod did with Haydn at the 2013 Fenner Conference, organised by Sustainable Population Australia ( You can find out more about "10 Journeys on a Fragile Planet" here ( Want to find out more about the Fuzzy Logic Science show? You can listen via Canberra’s radio 2XX ( or via the Fuzzy Logic Podcast ( As a prolific and energetic volunteer for Sustainable Population Australia, Rod worked with PGAP co-host Michael Bayliss with many of SPA’s video productions, including: “Talking Heads: Choosing to have children...or not (” and an interview with the Ambassador of Costa Rica, “Pura Vida Costa Rica with Ambassador Armando Vargas (”. Michael owes much to Rod’s impeccable talent for camera angles and lighting. Rod was also co-editor of "Sustainability and the New Economics (" (Springer, 2022) with Steve Williams. PGAP interviewed Steve ( on a season 3 episode of PGAP. This volume is an invaluable addition to the post-growth economic movement. "The path to sustainable civilisation" co-written by Rod Taylor and Mark Disendorf is set to be published in mid 2023. With the tag line - 'civilization's broken, this is how we fix it" - we can't wait for the launch! Sustainable Population Australia has recently launched a new discussion paper, “How many Australians? The need for Earth-centric ethics (” authored by Patron Dr. Paul Collins. Paul was also interviewed for a season 3 edition of PGAP here ( Find out more about co-host Mark Allen’s Holistic Activism movement here ( Support PGAP! Share this episode and others with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( Got any feedback or a suggestion for a future episode? Contact us here ( It has been an epic 2022 for PGAP and the hosts. Thank you for being with us through this journey and see you again in the new year. Special Guest: Rod Taylor.


Organic, Regenerative & Carbon Negative: Oranje Tractor Winery with Murray Gomm

For season 4 of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), we will be highlighting some extraordinary work being done by extraordinary Western Australians, who are bucking the dominant narrative of exploitation on scale on an ecologically unique yet fragile part of the world. In this episode, we speak to Murray Gomm from Oranje Tractor (, award winning organic, regenerative and carbon negative winery/small farm holding near Albany. Oranje Tractor certainly punches above its weight. It was the winner of the Gourmet Traveller Wine, Australia's Best Cellar Door Awards 2019. Oranje Tractor Farm was the winner of ACCI's Great Southern Business Awards for Environment and Sustainability in 2019 and was a Case Study for Circular Economy WA in 2022. It has been endorsed by Charles Massy (previous PGAP guest) and visited by then Prince Charles – now king (and not YET a PGAP guest). But how do you produce good quality wine, along with an impressive variety of fruits, nuts and vegetables, in a manner that improves soil integrity and sequesters more carbon than what is emitted? Murray Gomm shares what happens ‘behind the scenes’ of how they do it and why Oranje Tractor is capturing the interest and imagination of so many people. Murray also provides some insight into the wider regenerative movement and the agricultural zeitgeist that is slowly beginning to influence new ways of approaching farming in the Great Southern of Western Australia. For the introduction and outro of this episode, Michael is joined by co-host Mark Allen as they pick each other’s brain on topics such as: regenerative agriculture and permaculture; progress on the Asbestos campaign (as discussed in the last episode); and the result of SPA’s 8 billion competition and the commentary from the mainstream press for 8 billion day, which was reached on the 15th of November. Timestamp for the episode Intro (Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen): 0:00:00 – 0:06:37 Oranje Tractor interview with Murray Gomm: 0:06:38 - 0:58:24 Outro (Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen): 0:58:25 - End Liked this episode and the themes of regenerative agriculture? You will love our interviews with Charles Massy (, Shane Simonsen, ( Artist as Family ( and David Holmgren ( Like PGAP? Rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( and share the podcast widely with your family friends and networks. Have a question for us? Got any suggestions for future discussion topics or interview guests? Contact PGAP anytime on our contact page here ( Further links you may be interested in: Independent Australia published an article co-written by Mark and Michael: “Working towards an asbestos-free future (,17004).” A more extensive version can also be read on the PGAP blog ( Our various asbestos misadventures were discussed in the season 4 premiere of PGAP ( There is an excellent article, published by Carbon8, showcasing FarmHand wines, another excellent regenerative winery. Written by Elena Burger Guimaraes. Currently available to read on Facebook. ( ABC has interviewed Oranje Tractor on several occasions. Examples include here ( and here ( SPA ( (who supports PGAP) announced the winners of the 8 billion writers' competition here....


Welcome to Asbestosville! Season 4 Premiere with Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen

We can’t believe that PGAP is into its fourth season already! So, to shake things up, Michael is joined by Mark Allen from Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism as the co-host for this season. You may remember Mark from his two previous guest appearances on PGAP here ( and here ( This first episode of the season is the culmination of a personal journey for them both. For Michael it is an opportunity to share his lived experiences in the West Australia rental market (in what has been labelled as the asbestos capital of the world) - that is too broken to care about whether the basic health and safety needs of renters are being met. Mark who shared in some of those experiences, goes on to look at how it all fits into a wider discussion on the systemic changes that are so urgently required in our town planning and housing sectors. These experiences have also been written down in the form of a blog: “A Year in Asbestosville: A Farcical Tale of Systemic Failure.” This can be read on the PGAP blog ( or at Michael’s author profile on Medium ( You are spoiled for choice! In addition to our personal journeys, we also discuss some Degrowth related current affairs. For example… Did you know that November 15th is the date that our global population will reach 8 billion people. Yay! But what does 8 billion mean for the planet, the environment and for you? Sustainable Population Australia (SPA (, who support this podcast, are inviting you to answer this very question in 100 words (or less!) for your chance to win a prize. A link can be found to the competition here ( The competition is open to all Australian residents who are not currently members of SPA and it is open until November 11th. Also, how could we not talk about Liz Truss on a program about Degrowth? Before her six weeks as PM was over, Truss bemoaned the supposed anti-growth coalition. So, a growing number of people thought that this was a great idea and started one up. Mark is currently in conversation with the coalition about how best to frame the population issue in a way that prevents it from becoming overly divisive. Want to find out more? You can visit their website here. ( (image found through internet image search). Finally, we would like to give a nod to Dr. Alex Baumann, who has just released a YouTube video, “The Land Issue | A Social Science Sustainability Breakthroug (". Our season 3 interview with Alex, ‘A Public Housing Revolution for Degrowth (’ has become PGAP’s highest performing ever episode. Hopefully this will help bring the importance of public housing and its role in our transition to degrowth, further into public consciousness. Perhaps we are making a difference because this year, PGAP nudged into the top 6% of global podcasts! With your help, we can get PGAP into the top 5% of listens, which we would like to think is where it belongs. You can do your bit by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can also rate and review us on Apple Podcasts ( so that others may be inspired to give us a go. Let’s help to build a movement of movements 😊. You can find out more about Mark, Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion here ( You can find out more about Michael at his website here (


Season 3 Finale with Charlie Mgee from Formidable Vegetable

From the very beginning, PGAP has delighted in playing music from Formidable Vegetable ( on our permaculture themed episodes. So, for the final episode of Season 3, host Michael Bayliss is especially thrilled to meet with Formidable Vegetable mastermind Charlie Mgee at his new eco village home at Living Waters, Denmark WA. An engaging storyteller as well as musician and performer, Charlie shares the incredible history of forming the permaculture themed band and their mission statement from the get go. We also explore the role that music place in activism and societal change and we cap it off with Charlie’s vision for a Post-Growth future. Want to explore more of the Formidable Vegetable discography? The video for ‘No Such Thing as Waste’, the featured song for this episode, can be seen here ( We also play brand new track 'Short Attention Span' from brand new album 'In Real Life' at the end of the interview. Bandcamp is the best place to go to hear all the back catalogue. Link here. ( PGAP will be taking a – hopefully – short break before rejuvenating with Season 4 later this year. Just because we’re on pause doesn’t mean you have to be! Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family, colleagues and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( Contact us here ( to give us your feedback and especially what topics and guests you’d like to see for season 4. In the meantime, if you enjoy the permaculture theme you may also like PGAP’s interview with David Holmgren ( (who Charlie lived with back in 2020) or Meg and Patrick from Artist as Family ( Or you may be interested in the Tasmanian Perspectives ( series of interviews in season 2, including the quiet permaculture revolutio ( of Tassie’s northern shores, or Charles Massy (, regenerative farmer, from Season 3. Most of these episodes have Formidable Vegetable providing the music. If you want to find out more about host Michael Bayliss, please head to my website here ( Otherwise, episode timestamp below and see you all in a few months! Until then, until then…. Timestamp! 0:00:00 - 0:08:13 Introduction with Michael Bayliss 0:08:13 - 0:10:59 'No Such Thing As Waste' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved. 0:11:00 - 1:03:11 Interview with Charlie Mgee 1:03:11 - 1:04:05 'Short Attention Span' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved. 1:04:06 - 1:06:31 Outro with Michael Bayliss Special Guest: Charlie Mgee.


Greenprints with Dr Michelle Maloney

In this episode of Post-Growth Australia, we welcome back Dr Michelle Maloney, National Convenor of Australia Earth Law Alliance (AELA), to discuss the exciting new Greenprints initiative. Quoting from the AELA Website (, Greenprints “provides a practical, step-by-step approach to help people understand both the big picture and the small details, of how to transform our societies and thrive within our ecological limit”. Greenprints “offers a process to help us find and use the very best sustainability & regenerative approaches, so we can redesign societies to thrive within our local, regional & global ecological limits.” This episode was recorded online during severe gale force winds in Albany and severe rainfall in Brisbane, which unfortunately impacted on the resulting sound quality. Unfortunately folks, climate change even impacts our podcast listening experience! More information can be found on the Greenprints website here ( An introductory video from Michelle on Greenprints can be watched on YouTube here ( (A model of the greenprints steps reproduced here with courtesy from the Greenprints website) Greenprints is a practical tool for community groups, workplaces and local government. If you or your community would benefit from Greenprints, please contact AELA, details on their website here. ( The online seminar from Prof. Will Steffen, where I first heard about the Greenprints initiative, can be viewed on YouTube here: “Planetary Boundaries: 2022 Update with Professor Will Steffen - Greenprints Exchange Workshop Series (” Steffen also presented at the March 2022 Fenner conference which I helped to organise with Sustainable Population Australia ( A video of the presentation can also be viewed on YouTube: “Can we feed all the people and not destroy the Earth (” Dr Michelle Maloney was previously interviewed by PGAP all the way back in Season 1. One of our more popular episodes, “Reimagining an Earth Centered Economy with Michelle Maloney” can be heard here ( You may also be interested in the second season PGAP episode: “Saving the Martuwarra-Fitzroy river with Professor Anne Poelina (” Anne Poelina is a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner who chairs the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and is working alongside AELA and the Greenprints initiative. Did you enjoy this episode? You can support PGAP by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast ( We are grateful for any constructive feedback or ideas for future guests and episodes, contact us here ( More information regarding PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found at my personal website here ( All opinions from PGAP guests, including their past or present legacies, are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or Sustainable Population Australia, who support this podcast. Special Guest: Dr Michelle Maloney.


Earth Overshoot Day 2022 with CASSE's Brian Czech

For the 2022 Earth Overshoot Day special of PGAP, we observe the occasion by welcoming Brian Czech, founder of the Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE). As a figurehead of the Degrowth movement, Brian makes a perfect voice of reason for this year’s Earth Overshoot Day, which falls on July 28th. In this episode, Brian reflects on the formation and history of CASSE with host Michael Bayliss and how the Steady State and Degrowth movements intersect. He shares his decades of experience and fascinating anecdotes to draw the point home that a steady state revolution is necessary to stop the endless growth paradigm from bringing earth overshoot day all the way to January 01st. Brian Czech has a Ph.D. in renewable natural resources. He is the founding President of CASSE (, and a prolific author. His scientific articles have appeared in dozens of peer-reviewed journals, dealing primarily with ecological and economic sustainability issues. His books include Supply Shock: Economic Growth at the Crossroads, released in May 2013, Shoveling Fuel for a Runaway Train, which calls for an end to uneconomic growth, and The Endangered Species Act: History, Conservation Biology, and Public Policy. Brian is also an Interdisciplinary Biologist in the national office of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, where he received a 2010 Star Award for outstanding performance. He has played a leading role in engaging the environmental sciences and natural resources professions in ecological economics and macroeconomic policy dialog. Check out Earth Overshoot Day ( Global Footprint Network ( for a rundown on Earth Overshoot Day. According to their press release ( for Earth Overshoot Day 2022: “Each year, Earth Overshoot Day marks the date when humanity has used all the biological resources that Earth regenerates during the entire year. Humanity currently uses 75% more than what the planet’s ecosystems can regenerate—or “1.75 Earths.” From Earth Overshoot Day until the end of the year, humanity operates on ecological deficit spending.” Further: “Earth Overshoot Day 2022 lands on July 28, earlier than last year. Over 50 years of global overshoot have led to a world where aggravated drought and food insecurity are compounded by unseasonably warm temperatures. As the date indicates, humanity continues to widen its annual ecological deficit two years after the pandemic-induced resource-use reductions exceptionally pushed the date back temporarily by 24 days.” As you can see, EOD2022 is an absolute riot! What can YOU do for Earth Overshoot Day? Glad you asked! Use the hashtag #movethedate in your social media correspondence Donate to Earth Overshoot ( they can continue their good work Sign the CASSE petition ( calling for a Steady State Economy Support Sustainable Population Australia (, the only Australian environmental NGO willing to investigate the ‘P’ part of the IPAT equation Last but not least, share this and other episodes of PGAP and rate and review on Apple Podcast ( (This list is not exhaustive of course. Reduce your consumption, embrace small families, annoy big business and property developers and TRY not to vote for one of the major political parties next time -as tempting as this may be. Basically, be the opposite of Elon Musk) Enjoy this episode and want to down a rabbit hole of links? With PGAP’s help, you’ll never have to leave your computer screen again! (Thank us later). The CASSE website ( is a great place to start! The Steady Stater Podcast (which Brian hosts) can be found here....


3 Women 2 Countries 1 Message: World Population Day 2022

World Population Day is approaching on July 11. According to the United Nations Population Fund, ‘8 billion people means 8 billion opportunities’, however many population sustainability advocates are not quite so optimistic. For this episode, PGAP welcome back Karen Shragg, American and Degrowth activist, along with two new guests, Madeline Weld and Valorie Allen from Canada. In this special four way discussion, we explore the similarities and contrasts of the population movement in across our respective countries and unite to shred the myths and misconceptions around population sustainability. Karen Shragg is a lifelong environmentalist, naturalist, educator, poet, author and overpopulation activist based in the USA. Her book ‘Move Upstream, A Call for Overpopulation’ was published in 2015. Her latest book ‘Change Our Stories Change our World’ was published in 2020. Karen maintains the ‘Moving Upstream (’ blog and is a regular article writer. A recent article “For Your Consideration: To be Anti-Growth is to be Pro-humanity” can be read at Medium here ( Madeline Weld is president of Population Institute Canada ( which seeks to inform the Canadian public and policy-makers about population matters. She has impressively held this position for almost 30 years. In the spirit of this episode of busting population myths, Madeline has published many impressive articles on this subject. Favourites include: “The 'Silent Lie' in Coverage of Madagascar’s Famine (,” “The Myth of Canada’s Underpopulation: Lay it to rest (” and “Deconstructing the dangerous dogma of denial (”. Valorie Allen has been an activist for 35 years in the environmental, population and animal rights movements, receiving the Canadian Volunteer Award. Her first award-winning book “Growing Pains—A Planet in Distress” was published in 2010. This year, Val has published her new book “8 Billion Reasons Population Matters.” More information regarding her new book can be found here ( Val’s website, Population In Sync here ( Want to find out more about World Population Day? Considering we’re reaching an 8 Billion milestone very soon in a heating world running out of resources, you might imagine that the United Nations Population Fund (UNFP) might sound a little anxious in their write up of the event ( However, they sound pretty upbeat, showing more concern over population ‘alarmists’. Go figure. The UNFP also raise concerns around the historical legacy of family planning and reproductive health care. Jane O’Sullivan’s article for The Overpopulation Project “History was rewritten to delegitimize population concerns: we need to reassert the truth (” challenges these notions and is essential reading. Given that the high court in the USA has just upended the Roe vs. Wade case, ruling no constitutional right to abortion in the USA, your PGAP host believes this is just the latest in a long trend of denying funding and support for family planning and healthcare. This impacts women for the worse and contributes to the 121 million unintended pregnancies worldwide every year. All the more need for episodes such as this one, bringing together a united female voice to the vexed population issue. Immigration was raised in this episode and on this topic I would like to invite you to watch a small video I made in 2020...


PGAP goes Earthbound with Dan and Johanna McTiernan

At PGAP, we have explored many different ideas and facets within the broad realm of Post Growth. Permaculture is a frequent topic on this podcast, so too is behaviour change and nature based spirituality. But what happens if you combine the best of both worlds? For example, the practicality of permaculture principles in conjunction with transpersonal psychology, energy meditation and nature connection facilitation? You get Dan and Johanna McTiernan, co-founders of Earthbound who live and manage a 6 acre homestead on Finland. Johanna and Dan are the guests of this episode of PGAP as we find out more about Earthbound. Dan McTiernan is a certified transpersonal psychology coach and subtle energy meditation teacher and has been deeply involved in the permaculture movement as a teacher, entrepreneur, writer and homesteader for 15 years. Johanna McTiernan is a certified subtle energy meditation teacher and a trained nature connection facilitator. With her husband, Dan, she has created permaculture projects including a community supported bakery in the UK, a regenerative olive and almond farm in Spain and a homestead in her native Finland. She is a lifelong seeker of meaning and meeting her family's needs in deep relationship with the land is her passion. Earthbound (, the project Dan and Johanna run, offers 1-1 and group coaching facilitating growth, connection and healing at the fertile edge between transpersonal psychology, embodied meditation & permaculture. PGAP host Michael Bayliss first met Dan McTiernan through mutual connections with Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen. You can find out more about Holistic Activism here ( Interested in listening to more PGAP episodes on permaculture? You might be interested in the season 3 episode with Shane Simon on Zero Input Agriculture ( Season 2 episode with Tania Brook ( for our Tasmanian Perspectives mini series of interviews. Would you prefer to listen to more episodes on behaviour change and spirituality? Our last episode with Paul Collins ( a great listen. You might also like to travel back to season 1 for our interview with Darpan. ( Did you like this episode of PGAP? Then share it far and wide! Rate and review on Apple Podcast ( Subscribe to PGAP here ( You can contact us here ( to let us know your thoughts on this and other episodes and what topics and guests you would like to see for future episodes. The homepage for PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found here ( All views and opinions expressed by our guests, including references to their past and present work are totally their own and do not necessarily reflect any views or positions held by Post Growth Australia Podcast. Special Guests: Dan McTiernan and Johanna McTiernan.


A Theological Perspective on Population with Dr Paul Collins

In this episode of PGAP, we talk to Dr Paul Collins, former head of the religion and ethics department in the ABC. He is well known as a commentator on Catholicism and the papacy and also has a strong interest in ethics, environmental and population issues. Paul Collins is also patron of Sustainable Population Australia. Although Christianity is not often renowned in the broader community for its position on reproductive health care or environmental concerns, Paul challenges this presupposition. He is unique in his ability to weave theology into a discourse on environmental centred ethics. PGAP interviewed Paul on the back of his new book “The Depopulation Imperative. How many people can earth support?” Want to find out more about Paul? Visit his website here ( You may also like to watch a short video on Paul from SPA’s meet our patron ( series. Want your own copy of the “The Depopulation Imperative?” A link to the book here ( Paul was recently interviewed on ABC Radio National Science Show to promote 'The Depopulation Imperative'. Link to the episode can be found here ( Pope Francis’ position on choosing pets over babies as ‘selfish’ was referred to on the episode several times. A link to the article from The Guardian can be found here ( What are your thoughts on the issues raised in this or other episodes of PGAP? Contact us here. ( Support PGAP by subscribing here ( and rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( Share PGAP among your networks. This episode of PGAP is made possible from the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia ( The perspectives and positions held by our guests are theirs only, this includes current and past published works. Not all views necessarily reflect those of PGAP. More information on PGAP host, Michael Bayliss can be found on his website here ( Special Guest: Paul Collins.


Ecological Economies and MMT with Steve Williams

“Sustainability and the New Economics: Synthesising Ecological Economics and Modern Monetary Theory” is a new book fresh off the print and on the shelves. It is an impressive volume containing chapters from a host of Australian game-changers including Michael Kirby, Ian Dunlop, Will Steffen and last episode’s guest Ian Lowe. The book details sobering realities regarding business as usual economics, while offering many realistic and applicable solutions based around ecological economics and modern monetary theory. PGAP spoke with lead editor Stephen Williams to find out more about this impressive book, and why economics is front and foremost of the world’s problems and why things need to change. Stephen Williams has a background in newspaper journalism and law. He began his journalism career at The Canberra Times in 2000 and subsequently specialised in environmental matters. His overarching interest is in designing sustainable societies. He believes mainstream economics can only provide a path to collapse. He is the co-editor of Sustainability and the New Economics: Synthesising Ecological Economics and Modern Monetary Theory (Springer, 2022). Want to find out more about “Sustainability and the New Economics: Synthesising Ecological Economics and Modern Monetary Theory”, purchase your own copy or encourage your local library to stock up? Check out the link to the book here ( Want to find out more about some of the topics that Stephen brought up in the interview? Modern Money Lab (courses, info): Herman Daly essay (with top-10 policies): Did you like the economic focus of this episode? You might also like season 2 finale episode with Economic Reform Australia ( or The Economics of Arrival with Katherine Trebeck ( Season 1 has the budget special with unconventional economist Leith van Onselen (, or reimagining an earth centred economy with Michelle Maloney. ( SUPPORT PGAP! Rate and review us on Apple Podcast [here ( Subscribe here. ( Contact us here ( See you next episode? You wouldn't miss it for the world! PGAP is made possible with the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia ( If you would like to find out more about PGAP host Michael Bayliss, his website can be visited here ( (All opinions, publications and positions held by PGAP guests do not necessarily reflect the positions held by PGAP). Special Guest: Stephen Williams.


Population and Climate Change with Ian Lowe and Jane O'Sullivan

Did you know that climate mitigation models show that the only scenarios that avoid dangerous climate change are those which assume global population peaks in the next decade and then declines? Why is no-one talking about this? Luckily for us and the future of the planet, PGAP’s two guests for this episode, Professor Ian Lowe and Doctor Jane O’Sullivan, have written a new discussion paper ‘Population and Climate Change.’ Co-written with Doctor Peter Cook and commissioned by Sustainable Population Australia, this new report uses clear concise language with thorough scientific research to make a very strong case for the role that population plays in this warming world. PGAP speaks with Jane and Ian to unwrap the key points behind the discussion paper and to find out more about the stories behind these two inspiring people. The discussion paper ‘Population and Climate Change’ can be downloaded from the Sustainable Population Australia website here ( You can find out more about SPA and their recent campaigns here ( and here ( Ian was recently interviewed on ABC’s Radio National Science Show on the ‘Population and Climate Change’ discussion paper here ( As a patron for Sustainable Population Australia, Ian was also interviewed for SPA’s ‘Meet the Patrons’ series of short videos here ( Ian’s interview can be heard between 00:07:10 and 00:29:52 Jane has just had a very topical article published in The Overpopulation Project: “Ukraine war: temporary glitch or tipping point?” ( Last year, she was guest on the award winning US based podcast “This Sustainable Life” ( to discuss SPA’s previous commissioned report “Silver Tsunami Or Silver Lining ( Why We Should Not Fear an Ageing Population” - which Jane authored. Jane’s interview can be heard between 00:33:08 and 01: 01: 50 I note that the New Economy Network Australia (NENA) were very kind in sharing the ‘Population and Climate Change’ discussion paper. Their director, Dr. Michelle Maloney was one of the first guests on PGAP and both Jane and I have presented at NENA run conferences. NENA is collaborating with Griffith University's Yunus Centre to deliver a short course: " Building the Wellbeing Economy: Foundations for Learning and Practice." The course brings together 21 thought-leaders over 8 weeks to discuss how we might reshape the economy in which both people and the planet thrive. This is critical for any Post-Growth person to consider. To register go here (, or follow the poster below! Loved the episode? Hated it? Love the episode but hate PGAP? Firecely undecided? We’d love to hear your (constructive) thoughts and feedback by contacting us here ( Word of mouth is our main tool to crack the mainstream, so please consider sharing this episode, subscribe to PGAP ( or rate and reviewing this episode on Apple Podcasts ( Want to find out more about the host? Check out my website here ( Special Guests: Dr. Jane O'Sullivcan and Prof. Ian Lowe.