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Post-Growth Australia Podcast

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The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger. Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you. In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet. Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists. PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).




The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger. Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you. In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet. Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists. PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).



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World Population Day 2024 Special

Welcome to PGAP’s “World Population Day 2024” special, where your co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss share their recent musings on sustainable population. World Population Day ( is an annual event, observed on July 11 every year, which seeks to raise awareness of global population issues. Our ‘manifesto’ on the population debate can be read on the PGAP blog: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue (” Mark’s article “A Holistic Activism Approach to the Population Issue” was published in MEDIUM ( the Sustainable Population Australia newsletter May 2024 edition ( Want to find out more about Holistic Activism? The booklet can be Downloaded HERE (, or accessed at the Holistic Activism website ( Michael’s article “Population growth and wealth inequality are more entwined than we thought: here’s why (” was originally published on the Population Media Center blog. An audio summary of the themes may be listened to at the ‘Rethinking Sustainability’ podcast, to which Michael was a guest for the short episode: “Growth and the Parasitic Economy (”. We believe that population sustainability is one essential component of transitioning to a post-growth society and we trust that this episode and our written contributions make for convincing arguments. Kelvin Thomson, former Australian Federal MP and a huge influence on the population sustainability movement, has released an EP of original music. The track ‘Break Away’, that ends this episode, may be watched on YouTube here ( Sustainable Population Australia has launched a media release for World Population Day: “A population may survive but not thrive if it grows rapidly (”. We have been told that this has had some positive response from the media, including interviews with SPA’s national president on mainstream radio. You can add your name to SPA’s position statement HERE ( at 15,000 signatures) or find out more about how you can make a difference HERE ( SPA’s contributions to the population debate are also discussed in this episode. You can rate and review PGAP at Apple Podcast HERE ( Feel free to contact us HERE ( with your feedback and suggestions, including ideas for future episodes.


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Mini Episode: Larry Blight, Noongar Menang Friend of Yakamia Forest Boodja

This mini episode of PGAP is the 'soundtrack' to a recent seven-minute video that was made by Michael Bayliss on behalf of the Friends of Yakamia Boodja action group, "Meet Larry Blight, Menang Noongar Educator and Friend of Yakamia Forest Boodja (" It touches on some of the main themes that were discussed during a more in-depth conversation that we had with Larry for the full-length episode of Season Five, "Conversation with Noongar Menang Educator and Storyteller Larry Blight (" You may also be interested in another five minute video, "Meet Some of the Friends of Yakamia Forest Boodja (" which was filmed on-site and also features Larry Blight along with many other active campaigners. This video was a success on social media and drew in support from the broader community in Albany, South-West Australia. PGAP recognises NAIDOC Week (07th to 14th of July) which honours the traditions, achievements, and voices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. This episode along with the videos were made on Menang Noongar Boodja, on lands that were never ceded and to whose lands our current extractive society keeps plundering and 'developing' without meaningful consultation. All in the endless pursuit of growth. Groups such as Friends of Yakamia Boodja are active in solidarity with the first custodians of the land in their campaign to protect what we can of remaining patches of bushland. Sadly all conservation groups will find themselves having to fight one battle after another until such time that we transition to a post-growth society that applies the wisdom of First Nation cultures. We deeply respect elders past, present and emerging. Special Guest: Larry Blight.


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Post Growth Guide with Marcus Feldthus

Our special guest for the first full length episode of this season is Marcus Feldthus from Post Growth Guide ( Post Growth Guide is a company that is based in Denmark, where Marcus Feldthus and Oscar Haumann work within the business community to assist other organisations in transitioning to post-growth ways of operating. This is crystalised in the handbook "Setting Limits To Growth: How to make better business decisions in the 21st century (" which also serves as a document of their own journey, still in progress, towards becoming a post-growth business. PGAP has previously interviewed many guests whose focus is on system/legislative change or citizen action. This is possibly the first time that we have had a guest who is working towards change from within the business sector. This places Marcus in a unique position as a true pioneer. We hope you enjoy this episode of Post Growth Australia Podcast. Please feel free to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. You can also rate and review us on APPLE PODCAST (, or send us a message ( with your thoughts and suggestions. Want to dip your toes deeper into Post Growth Guide, THE learning platform for anyone interested in how to align business with planetary boundaries? Below are a few links to get your started! Open-Eyed Planning 101: Pre-signup for the course: The Handbook "Setting Limits to Growth": The Post Growth Guide Membership: Post Growth Guide's Open Hub (with 50+ resources on post growth business): Marcus would also like to share the following links for further information: 20 Cases of Post Growth Practices: Reduction Roadmap: Getting Out Of A Race To The Bottom (a case still unfolding): The Danish Deposit System: Collecting & Repurposing 1.9B bottles and cans annually: The World's First Carbon-Negative Beer (Without Offsets): How To Pay Living Wages w. Pura Utz: Steward Ownership - an in-depth explainer of how that works: Antoine Monserand's paper on Degrowth and Pension Funds: "Post-Growth in the Global South? Some Reflections from India and Bhutan" (as mentioned in the interview): Vyld (Purpose Economy has done a case review): _ You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss ( Mark Allen ( here. Post Growth Australia Podcast is made possible from the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. All views and perspectives of our guests, as well as any past, present or future legacies, are their own and do not always reflect the positions held by PGAP. _ Special Guest: Marcus Feldthus.


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Mini Episode: Alex Baumann on Public Housing and Degrowth

Post-Growth Australia Podcast welcomes back Dr. Alex Baumann for a mini episode on housing and Degrowth. Alex was one of our star guests a couple of years ago, whose epsiode, "A Public Housing Revolution for Degrowth with Dr Alex Baumann (" remains one of PGAP's highest performing episodes. Alex returns to update us on the following: The launch of the De Gruyter Degrowth Handbook ( and most specifically, the chapter, cowritten by Alex and Samuel Alexander: "Land Commodification: A Structural Barrier to Degrowth Transition." An article in The Conversation: "Huge housing costs make us slaves to our jobs and unsustainable growth. But there’s another way (". The strategy paper "LAND COMMODIFICATION AS A BARRIER TO POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC AGENCY: A DEGROWTH PERSPECTIVE (" Alex is a lecturer at the 'Sustainable Futures' course at the University of Western Sydney. A video was made with the students of the course, which can be seen on YouTube here ( PGAP is delighted to be returning for a SIXTH season with a mix of full length episodes as well as mini episodes with returning guests. We hope to make this format accessible to everyone, whether you are looking for a briefer or more immersive listen. Please send us your feedback by contacting us on our CONTACT PAGE HERE ( We would appreciate a review on APPLE PODCAST ( if you have the time. Please share this and your other favourite episodes of PGAP among your networks. PGAP is run by Michael Bayliss ( and Mark Allen (, supported by Sustainable Population Australia ( Special Guest: Alex Baumann.


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Season Finale: Going deep into Deep Ecology with John Seed

For the final episode of season 5, PGAP welcomes special guest John Seed (OAM). John is founder and director of Australia’s Rainforest Information Centre ( and is an Australian figurehead for the Deep Ecology Movement ( A long time hero of both co-hosts Mark and Michael, John combines decades of successful environmental activism with an emphasis toward re-establishing a deep emotional connection with the natural world. It is the disconnection from nature which has resulted in the endless growth paradigm which is tearing apart our societies and our planet. John shares his thoughts on why system change is not enough and why a fundamental shift in our collective psychology is needed to get us out of this mess. In addition to John’s other accolades, he is also an accomplished musician. It was a pleasure to play his song ‘The World Bank Song’ on PGAP. The song was written in 1990 for a protest against the World Bank in Washington DC and the message is arguably even more relevant today. The video may be seen on YouTube ( and John’s music may also be heard on SoundCloud. ( You can find more about the RAINFOREST INFORMATION CENTRE HERE ( Or about DEEP ECOLOGY HERE ( More links to John’s work include articles on THE RELIGION OF ECONOMICS (, THE RIGHTS OF NATURE (, and CLIMATE GRIEF ( More information regarding the Atlas network may be read HERE ( and HERE ( You can find out more about HOLISTIC ACTIVISM HERE ( (founded by co-host Mark Allen). Both Mark and Michael Bayliss ( have been busy over the last couple of months. Mark has written A Holistic Activism Approach to the Population Issue ( for Medium. Michael was recently a guest presenter on the Rethinking Sustainability Podcast, on the topic of Growth and the Parasitic Economy. ( Mark has written for Independent Australia: Sydney asbestos crisis the tip of the iceberg (,18376). EcoVoice published Mark's article Climate Activism and the Crisis of Language ( Last but not least, the PGAP Blog has been updated with a new post, Building a house in the 2020s (and other fun things!) ( At PGAP, we like to give a shout out to the work of our past guests. The highly anticipated De Gruyter Degrowth Handbook ( has finally been released! Inside, contributors, including a forward by Jason Hickel, explore various facets of degrowth, delving into its intersections with Marxism, feminism, architecture, and issues related to the global south. A standout chapter, penned by our former podcast guest Alex Baumann and co-author Samuel Alexander, shines a light on the initial privatisation of capitalism, namely land privatisation. While the Handbook itself is behind a paywall, an excellent article in The Conversation...


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BONUS EPISODE: Sustainable Population Australia says NO to a Big Australia

For this short bonus episode of PGAP, we welcome back Martin Tye, Social Media and Promotions Coordinator of Sustainable Population Australia ( (SPA). Martin shares with us the details of SPA's new campaign 'Say NO to a Big Australia!' He also gives us a heads up on SPA's public forum, being held in Adelaide on April 20th, "From housing crisis to eco-crisis: Why Australia's Population Growth is Unsustainable," including keynote speakers Leith van Onselen and Dr Jane O'Sullivan. Please consider signing SPA's position statement (, calling for a sustainable population. Find out more about the campaign here ( Will you be in Adelaide on the 20th of April? Then do come along to SPA's free public forum ( on Australia's Ponzi population experiment - and what we can do about it. For those not in Adelaide, the event will be live streamed. PGAP has interviewed both keynote speakers, including Leith van Onselen ( Macrobusiness, and Jane O'Sullivan, ( in past episodes. Martin Tye was also interviewed in the very first episode of PGAP. ( Listen here for a walk down history lane! SPA are the primary supporters of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). While this podcast aims to invite broad perspectives on the Degrowth movement, we believe that a stable or slowly declining populations, both domestically and globally, are crucial components of the post-growth transition. If you want to find out more about where your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen sit on population, you can read more HERE ( and HERE. ( All opinions, views and past and current legacies of our guests are strictly their own, and do not always reflect the views of PGAP. PGAP have one last episode in the wings with a VERY special guest (no spoilers!) before we take a short break. Stay tuned! In the meantime, please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Subscribe to PGAP HERE ( or contact us with your thoughts and ideas HERE ( Special Guest: Martin Tye.


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Finding The Money with Maren Poitras

As this episode goes to air, a brand-new documentary on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is touring Australia and PGAP has been given the incredible opportunity to speak to USA based director of "Finding the Money (", Maren Poitras. Maren has just embarked on a screening tour of South East Australia alongside Stephanie Kelton, who is a leading proponent of the MMT movement and author of ‘The Deficit Myth’ ( (Australian Poster) During this revealing interview, Maren discusses the importance of MMT and the journey that making a feature length documentary on this important topic has taken her on. The conversation also explores why it is crucial that MMT goes hand in hand with post growth narratives and why it is important to combine the two in order to create an economic system that works within limits to growth. (Maren Poitras) ‘Finding The Money’ was filmed and produced in the USA with a focus around Stephanie Kelton’s advocacy in that country. However, Australia is the first country in the world to host screenings in advance of the documentary’s official release in the USA later this year. This is testament to the growing popularity of MMT in Australia and its many homegrown advocates of economic reform. These include institutions such as Modern Money Lab ( and Economic Reform Australia ( as well as author Steve Williams ( - all have been previous guests on PGAP. You can find the dates of the Australian screening tour below and if you are in the right place at the right time, we strongly encourage that you go and see it. Not only is it a brilliant documentary but you will also have the opportunity to meet and greet Stephanie Kelton and Maren Poitras. CLICK HERE ( to book your tickets. Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made with the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia ( We refer to SPA’s discussion paper in this interview: "Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining: Why We Should Not Fear an Ageing Population (". Any views, opinions or legacy of our guests do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA. Your PGAP co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are very pleased and humbled by the excellent response to the podcasts that we have made so far this year. We have had more listens than ever before, so a big thank you to our ever-growing community! We truly believe that "Finding the Money" and the conversations in this episode are very important and worth supporting, so we would be very grateful if you could share this episode within your networks. Also, please feel free to contact us ( at any time with your feedback and thoughts. You can find out more about your hosts here ( here ( Special Guest: Maren Poitras.


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Debunking Green Growth with Timothée Parrique

For this episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, we go international by welcoming our esteemed guest Timothée Parrique, who is based in France and Sweden. Timothée is an economist at the School of Economics and Management of Lund University (Sweden). He has built a steady reputation as a colourful writer and speaker on the fallacies of our growth-based economy and is a loud and proud advocate of Degrowth, Post-Growth and Steady State based solutions. Topics discussed with Timothée in this episode include: Reflections on the Degrowth movement within Europe, with particular focus on the 2023 Beyond Growth conference held at the EU parliament. Why “green growth” and economic decoupling are fallacies that are not backed by scientific evidence. Why demography is not an economic problem and why tinkering with demography won’t provide economic solutions. Timothée’s personal vision for a post-growth world (involving much more social equity and much less advertising). We think you will agree that Timothée is a fantastic speaker on these issues, whose colourful use of metaphor and imagery makes for an engaging conversation. We encourage you to read his article: “A response to The Economist: Shut up and let me grow (”. This was an assertive response The Economist who wrote a critique of the 2023 Beyond Growth Conference (, titled “Meet the lefty Europeans who want to deliberately shrink the economy (” Indeed. There are many great YouTube videos highlighting Timothée’s impressive public speaking legacy. This Tedx Talk ( (which has attracted nearly 130 000 views) is in French, but if you don’t speak the language, you have the option of English subtitles. We also recommend his talk at the Beyond Growth conference: “How to finance welfare without growth (” He has also been interviewed on the Steady Stater Podcast. Otherwise, check out Timothée Parrique’s website here ( PGAP has been delighted and humbled by the fantastic listener support that we received for our last episode with First Nations cultural educator Larry Blight. ( Thank you to everyone who took the time share your kind words with us. In keeping with Degrowth values, PGAP does not use advertising and so depends on a supportive and generous community to get the word out. Please help us spread the good word by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. We encourage you to review and rate PGAP on Apple Podcast ( or your favourite platform. You are welcome to contact us anytime ( with your thoughts, feedback and suggestions. All views and perspectives of PGAP guests, including all past or present legacies, remain independent of the perspectives and legacies of PGAP and Sustainable Population Australia (, who support this podcast. For a more in-depth look into some of the issues around discussing population, which were touched on during the outro of this episode, please read our blog post: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue (” Until next time, until then! Special Guest: Timothée Parrique.


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Conversation with Noongar Menang Educator and Storyteller Larry Blight

Happy new 2024! For this very special episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, we interview Menang Noongar educator Larry Blight on site at the Yakamia forest, one of the few remnant pieces of bushland in Albany, which is currently under threat from overdevelopment (of course!) Larry discusses the environmental and cultural significance of the Yakamia forest. We then delve into a broader conversation across many issues such as overdevelopment, colonisation, the perils of neoliberalism and population policy. Larry incorporates his local knowledge and his connection to Boodja (Land) in what is a very deep and insightful conversation. From the Kirrah Mia ( website: “Larry is a Menang Man, who is passionate about his Boodja (Land) and all things on it. Larry has extensive knowledge of local bushfoods, medicines, fauna, local stories and traditions. Larry has been passing on this knowledge through cross-cultural awareness workshops, Aboriginal tourism, school educational workshops and more.” This episode was recorded on site at the Yakamia forest with our trusty portable recorder. Being immersed within the bushland allowed for a more immersive conversation to unfold. However, it also happened to be a windy day with quite a bit of ambient sound, affecting the quality of the recording. We did our best to throw all the production tricks to sharpen the recording, and we would like to thank Andrew Skeoch and Crystal Marketing for their additional assistance. As with our previous episode at the NENA conference, ( there is always a trade off with the intimacy of being 'live' with the unpredictable nature of sound recording, so we acknowledge the ‘rawness’ of this episode. To find out more about the Yakamia forest, you may be interested in our Season Four episode “A Tribute to Community Groups fighting Big Overdevelopment in WA” ( where we interview Annabel Paully from the Friends of Yakamia. For more First Nations’ perspective on Degrowth, you may be interested in Dr Mary Graham’s address in the episode, “PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism (” We also interviewed Prof. Anne Poelina in the Season Two episode: “Saving the Martuwarra-Fitzroy river (”. This episode was recorded on traditional Menang Noongar country, on lands that were never ceded and we would like to offer our respect to elders past, present and emerging. We strongly encourage you to share this very important episode with your friends, family and networks and would love it if you could take the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( or your favourite podcast platform. Degrowth is about community and we encourage a community approach to the direction of future PGAP episodes! Contact us anytime ( with your feedback, suggestions and ideas. PGAP is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia ( SPA has been active in including many diverse perspectives on the sometimes-contentious issue of population, including those from the Global South, as well as first generation migrant and First Nation's perspectives. More information can be found on SPA's 'diversity and social inclusion (' page. If you would like to support SPA in saying 'NO to a big Australia' in 2024, please consider adding your signature to their position statement. More information about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen can be viewed here ( and here ( Special Guest: Larry Blight.


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PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism

PGAP recently had the pleasure of travelling to Canberra to record live at the 2023 New Economy Network Australia ( (NENA) conference: ‘Life after Capitalism’. We recorded a collage of presentions and interviews with conferences attendees into order to showcase nearly two hours of Post-Growth goodness. This episode includes well-known names such as Tom Ballard, Donnie MacLurcan, Anitra Nelson and Gareth Hughes. (graphic courtesy of NENA) PGAP acknowledges the Ngunnawal, First Custodians of the country where the recordings of this conference took place. We pay respect to Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge that colonisation continues in the form of growth- based capitalism that privatises, pillages and pours concrete over lands that were never ceded. This is one aspect of an ongoing colonial mindset that pre-dates growth based capitalism. PGAP will never be corporatised, so it relies upon word of mouth to spread the post-growth message. So please, if you get the opportunity, share this and other episodes within your networks. You can rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( or on your favourite podcast platform. You can also Contact us ( with your feedback, thoughts, questions as well as ideas for future guests or episode topics. If you choose to subscribe (, that helps us a lot and it means that we can better keep you in the loop. (PGAP making a presence at the NENA conference) This is an absolute epic of an episode! It was recorded live across meeting rooms, hallways, scout halls and outdoors, so the quality of the recordings are variable. We would like to thank Andrew Skeoch for his additional editing support for this episode. Attendees at the NENA conference. What a fantastic, game changing group of future leaders, thinkers and healers. Photo courtesy of Rod Taylor We present to you our esteemed presenters and interviewees, in order of appearance (with time stamp): Uncle Wally: ‘Welcome to Country’ ( 00:04:52 to 00: 13: 35) Dr Mary Graham (, UQ and Kombu-merri person: ‘Indigenous perspectives and “Relationist Economics” (00: 13: 36 to 00: 25: 59) Tim Hollo (, Executive Director of The Green Institute, ‘What’s wrong with capitalism anyway?’ (00: 27: 24 to 00: 34: 11) Gareth Hughes (, Wellbeing Economy Alliance NZ: ‘Will “wellbeing economies” save us?’ (00: 34: 27 to 00: 42: 25) (For more on wellbeing economics, you may be interested in PGAP’s interview with Katherine Trebeck, ( who also spoke at the NENA conference) Janet Salisbury (, Women’s Climate Congress: Interview (00: 42: 41 to 00: 50: 51) Donnie MacLurcan (, Post-Growth Institute: “What might a degrowth and post-growth future look like?” ( 00: 52: 02 to 00: 57: 28) (PGI’s Robert Wanalo ( interviewed by PGAP in season 1) Anitra Nelson (, Author of ‘Exploring Degrowth’: “What could our lives look like after capitalism?” ( 00: 57: 44 to 01: 02: 23) (Anitra was a past guest on PGAP ( which can be listened to here) Anthony Gleeson, ‘The Sustainable Hour (’ radio program: Interview ( 01: 02: 24 to 01: 08: 38) Tom Ballard (, Comedian and author of ‘I Millennial (’: Conference Dinner Speaker ( 01: 10: 58 to 01: 32: 34) Andrew Skeoch (, nature sound recordist at 'Listening Earth': Interview followed by...


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Jon Doust on education, The Voice, the art of losing and much more

On this episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, we are joined by Jon Doust - professional writer, speaker, comedian, performer, activist and trouble maker. Not only does Jon live in the same town as your PGAP hosts (Albany), he went to the same school as Michael. In this episode, we exchange notes on our formative years, which for Jon are documented in his trilogy of books ‘Boy on a Wire’, ‘Return Ticket’ and ‘To the Highlands.’ This provides a springboard for an in-depth discussion around the role that formative education plays in creating the psychologies of modern society and how addressing many of our existential crises requires some deep unlearning and relearning. This interview was recorded on the eve of Australia’s Voice Referendum, to which Jon worked tirelessly for the Yes campaign. Jon was also running for the Albany council elections as a progressive voice in a typically conservative part of the world. This lead to a sprawling discussion across many topics, issues and amusing anecdotes, where Jon’s mercurial skills as a storyteller truly came to the fore. Also evident throughout the interview is Jon’s love and dedication to the First Nations Noongar Menang community. Further, as fellow activists, we reflect on our losses and how moving ahead requires the art of learning how to be a better loser (and continue on anyway with even more dedication!) You can find out more about Jon at his Blog ( at Fremantle Press. ( Michael Bayliss was joined by co-host Mark Allen for the introduction and outro discussions to this episode, recorded after the results of the Voice referendum. As proud ‘Yes’ supporters, we reflected with sadness at the results. We observed the phenomena of people voting No as a ‘protest’ to the government and reached the conclusion that there are far better ways to ‘voice’ your protest against the government – punching downwards is not the solution. We were pleased to note that the Albany Council now has a progressive councillor following the election, so that is one silver lining. In the outro, we compare notes on our personal education experiences and how these have been an impediment with regards to gaining the wisdom (or even the practical skills) to deal with the multiple human induced crises that lie ahead. We make it very clear that we are knocking THE SYSTEM and the vested interests that lie behind the veil, NOT individual teachers, many of whom are heroes in our eyes and work uphill everyday against the crumbling system. You can find out more about your hosts Michael Bayliss ( Mark Allen ( All the MANY opinions raised during this episode are individually held by your hosts and our esteemed guest Jon Doust and may not always reflect the opinions of our supporters ( Enough about us – what are your thoughts on all the above? Let them be known by contacting PGAP at our Contact Page ( If you liked this episode (or even if you didn’t!) rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( or your favourite platform. Share PGAP with your friends, family and networks and grow the post-growth conversation! This episode was recorded on the traditional lands of the Menang Noongar people that were never ceded. We continue to plunder, concrete and colonise their lands, without consultation, in the name of growth. We pay respect to all elders past, present and emerging and hope that we can learn from their wisdom in navigating the turbulent times ahead as we enter deeper intothe decade of consequence. Special Guest: Jon Doust.


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Mark Diesendorf and the Path to a Sustainable Civilisation

We are certainly living in precarious times. We have transgressed six out of nine planetary boundaries (with more to come). The gap between the ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’ is beginning to look less like a gap and more like a chasm. The threat of wide-scale war looms large. How do we get ourselves out of this mess before Mad Max becomes a documentary? Luckily for us, Mark Diesendorf and Rod Taylor have co-authored a new book “The Path to a Sustainable Civilisation: Technological, Socioeconomic and Political Change.” Not only does this book unpack several of the main existential challenges facing humanity, it details many proactive solutions that we can all undertake to create a better future. In this episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, Mark Diesendorf kindly steps into the microphone to summarise the key arguments detailed in “The Path of a Sustainable Civilisation.” Dr Mark Diesendorf is Honorary Associate Professor in the Environment & Society Group, School of Humanities & Languages at UNSW Sydney. He is also Senior Editor for Energy of the international journal Global Sustainability. Originally trained as a physicist, he became a Principal Research Scientist in CSIRO, and then broadened out into interdisciplinary energy and sustainability research. From 1996 to 2001 he was Professor of Environmental Science and Founding Director of the Institute for Sustainable Futures at University of Technology Sydney. PGAP listeners will be familiar with many of the challenges and solutions raised by Mark, in this interview, that are expanded on within the very concise and easy to read pages of “The Path to a Sustainable Civilisation (”. These include the mechanisms of state capture and how they undermine democracy, the critical role that population sustainability contributes toward any planned Degrowth transition and how planned Degrowth may be facilitated with the sensible application of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). MMT is a favourite topic on PGAP and we highly recommend listening to our episode: “MMT for Activism with Gabrielle Bond (”. You may also recognise Mark's co-author, Rod Taylor, who also contributed to the book “Sustainability and the New Economics” with Steve Williams, whom PGAP interviewed last yea ( Rod Taylor was also interviewed on PGAP for his own book “10 Journeys on a Fragile Planet (” We are certainly well read on this podcast! PGAP is supported by Sustainable Population Australia ( All views and perspectives from our esteemed guests, including current and past legacies, are their own and do not always reflect the positions held by PGAP or SPA. Your PGAP co-hosts, Michael Bayliss ( Mark Allen (, have been very impressed by the amount of contact and feedback that we have been receiving from our listeners and supporters. Thank you so much! Let’s build this community. Rate and review this and other episodes of PGAP on Apple Podcast ( or your favourite platform and feel free to share among your networks. Contact us ( anytime with your feedback, thoughts and ideas. As Mark Diesendorf is a very industrious generator of wisdom, we are honoured to share a large collection of his work below, followed by the time stamp for this episode. Happy further reading! Mark’s website: Mark’s Interview with The Sustainable Hour Podcast ( Mark and co-host Rod Taylor spoke at an online Australia Earth Law Alliance online event for Earth Laws month. The presentation may be seen at the AELA YouTube channel here...


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Planning for a Just Collapse with Kate Booth

It is not every day that urban planning and societal collapse are discussed in the same conversation. But for Kate Booth – activist academic and Associate Professor at the University of Tasmania, both are critical and interlinked issues. In this very educational episode, Kate talks us through the Insurgent Planning movement as well as the Just Collapse movement. At a time when Australia’s Federal Government is scrambling to build 1.2 million new homes while the recent climate data suggests that an ecological collapse is imminent, these are difficult but necessary conversations that we need to be having. Kate Booth is Associate Professor of Human Geography, and activist academic, in the School of Geography, Planning and Spatial Sciences at the University of Tasmania. Her teaching and research addresses socio-ecological inequity in the context of rapid and unprecedented global change, and she leads a ‘Critical Collapse Studies’ research program underpinned by her expertise on insurance in a changing climate. She also teaches urban and regional planning. You can read more about Kate here. ( Just Collapse is an activist platform dedicated to socio-ecological justice in face of inevitable and irreversible global collapse. You can find out more about Just Collapse here ( You can also read more about insurgent planning here ( or watch a video that Kate produced here ( An interview with Kate and Tristan Sykes is also available from Collapse Club on YouTube ( Kate is a regular contributor on the Town Planning Rebellion (TPR) Facebook Group (, which is administered and moderated by your PGAP co-hosts, Mark Allen ( Michael Bayliss ( Liked this episode and want to hear more? In 2021, PGAP recorded three episodes on the road in Tasmania, with many special guests, which can be listened to here, ( here ( and here ( You may also like our episode on Retrosuburbia with David Holgren ( Help the world to degrow by helping PGAP to grow! Share this episode with your family and friends and rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( Contact us ( with your feedback and suggestions for future topics or guests. PGAP is made possible through the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia ( The opinions of PGAP guests, including any legacies past or present, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of PGAP or SPA. Special Guest: Kate Booth.


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Let’s Get Crazy with Rob Dietz from Crazy Town Podcast

Welcome to the season five premiere of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. What better way to launch our new season than with Rob Dietz, co-host of Crazy Town Podcast, ( perhaps the standard bearer of degrowth themed podcasts. (Rob Dietz). Rob is the Programs Director of Post Carbon Institute ( (PCI). A brilliant public speaker and story teller, Rob talks us through the journey of Crazy Town Podcast, which he co-hosts with colleagues Asher Miller ( Jason Bradford ( He also discusses the other initiatives and campaigns run by PCI, in addition to his unique vision of a Post-Growth future. (Crazy Town's Logo). We asked Rob to share two of his favourite Crazy Town Podcast Episodes that are linked below. We do warn you, that once you start listening to Crazy Town, you might not be able to stop! Episode 34. Fear of Death and Climate Denial, or… the Story of Wolverine and the Screaming Mole of Doom ( Episode 60. Chillin' and Killin': How Air Conditioning Has Altered Human Behavior and the Environment ( Rob would also like us to share PCI’s report: “Welcome to the Great Unraveling: Navigating the Polycrisis of Environmental and Social Breakdown (” It is quality reading and we are pleased that it is making ripples. The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room (’ from host Michael Bayliss’ band ‘Shock Octopus (’ First released in 2011, its apocalyptic tale – of a world that has become so impacted that even the billionaires who created the mess in the first place have no safe place to hide – is becoming all the more prophetic a decade later. Michael and co-host Mark have had our music recently played on the Freedom of Species radio show, here ( and here ( respectively. (The iconic cover of the 'Safe Room' single). We are also excited by the fact that Rob presented at an online Degrowth conference run by New Economy Network Australia (NENA). PGAP has interviewed NENA’s convenor Michelle Maloney twice. The video of Rob’s talk can be watched here. ( Your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are pleased to be back for season five of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We hope you like the cosmetic changes of this episode (graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea Designs with photos from Photographica). We are looking forward to another season of quality guests and topics. We have not been idle during our break. You may, for example wish to have a gander at two of our recent published articles, including: “Economic reform vital to solving housing crisi (,17646)s” - Mark Allen for Independent Australia “POPULATION GROWTH AND WEALTH INEQUALITY ARE MORE ENTWINED THAN WE THOUGHT: HERE’S WHY (” – Michael Bayliss for Population Media Center blog. We hit our record monthly listens twice in season four and with your word of mouth we can extend our...


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Celebrating the 25th Anniversary of Population Media Center with Bill Ryerson

In 1998 Population Media Center ( (PMC) was formed to ‘make the stories that remake our world’. 25 years later, radio and TV shows, supported by PMC, have been heard throughout the world, including Ethiopia, Senegal and Papua New Guinea. Produced in collaboration with local communities and local scriptwriters, these shows share a common thread in that the audience are invited to consider positive family planning decisions through the role modelling of engaging and identifiable characters. PGAP was very fortunate to be joined by special guest Bill Ryerson (, President and Founder of PMC. He talks us through the ‘stories behind the stories’ of PMC's many award winning and popular projects. PGAP would like to give a shout out to Paul Winter (, who is not only on the program advisory board at PMC, but is also a Grammy winning saxophonist, whose music is inspired by the cultures and creatures of planet Earth. He kindly shared the track ‘Talkabout’ for this episode of PGAP, which we played an extract from after Bill’s interview. We would also like to give a shout-out to Cody Peluso (, Digital Advocacy & Mobilization Manager at PMC, without whom this episode would not have been possible. PGAP co-host Michael Bayliss interviewed Cody for a recent edition of the Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) newsletter ( SPA kindly supports PGAP and we encourage you to consider giving SPA a donation ( for their end of financial year donation appeal. PMC kindly provided an excerpt from the Hulu series ‘East Los High’, courtesy of Hulu, that we played at the start of this episode. A trailer for the series can be viewed on YouTube here ( We hope you will join PMC in celebrating their 25th anniversary. There are many events lined up, including their Zoom birthday party, held on Zoom on the 15th of June, which you can RSVP here ( Unfortunately for Australian listeners, this is well after midnight for us so perhaps one for the night owls. Otherwise you can keep track of PMC's activities on their website here ( Otherwise, please check out PMC’s award winning podcast, Crossing the Line ( Excellent stuff. While PMC celebrate their 25th anniversary, PGAP will be taking a very short break. This is the last episode of season 4 of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We made some changes to the format of this podcast, including welcoming co-host Mark Allen. The experiment has worked in our favour, with record number of listens in April and May. While our PGAP community continues to build, we strongly encourage our listeners to reach out and contact us with your feedback, suggestions and thoughts while we are on break. What were the episodes you loved, or not so much? What guests or topics would you like to see in season 5? We would love to hear from you, so don’t be shy in hitting the contact button ( All opinions of PGAP guests, including any past, present and future legacies, are exclusively their own and may not always reflect the views and objectives of Post-Growth Australia Podcast or Sustainable Population Australia. CLICK HERE ( to find out more about Sustainable Population Australia. You can find out more about the work of co-hosts Michael Bayliss HERE ( or Mark Allen...


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Housing Crisis?? What Housing Crisis!!

Fun Fact! When your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen aren’t making brand new episodes of PGAP, they are involved in many other worthy enterprises. Michael has just co-written a brand new report “Population and the Housing Crisis”. Mark performed his debut show at the Adelaide Fringe, “The Boomer and The Doomer.” Like most things we do, this all flew under the blip of the mainstream media radar, so we took the opportunity this episode to interview each other on our respective endeavours. It is not a secret to anyone now that Australia is going through a housing emergency. With Australia one of the most unaffordable countries in the world and with many of us in severe housing stress, this reality is very tangible. As housing stress is reaching its peak, our federal government is committing to one of the largest population growth policies in recent decades. The ‘official’ stance is that the housing crisis is a supply based issue – just keep building more! There has been very little written on the ‘demand’ side of the housing equation. Michael found himself one of the few who were brave or foolhardy enough to tackle this issue alongside co-author Dr. Jane O’Sullivan, with whom Sustainable Population Australia ( commissioned to write the report ‘The Housing Crisis is a Population Growth Crisis (’ For this episode, Mark interviews Michael on the story behind the report and some of its key findings. (Boomer and the Doomer artwork by Mathisha Wahikala, Mick Thompson and Mark Allen). The housing emergency is just another in long line of emergencies – take your pick! Climate change, boiling oceans, ecological collapse, resource depletion and other fun things. It can be hard to maintain a poker face through this incessant din of human induced calamities, let alone find time to laugh. Michael interviews Mark’s recent experiences in combining political satire with stand- up comedy in his debut show at the Adelaide fringe with comedian Eric Tinker ( Combined, they performed the duo show ‘The Boomer and The Doomer’ across three sold out nights in March. We muse on bringing humour into Degrowth conversations, which has been one of PGAP’s key objectives since day one. Eric Tinker's 'MC Boomer rap' can be viewed here on YouTube ( (Ice cover artwork by Robert Smith and Mark Allen). We also take time in the episode to play a some choice tracks, 'Ice' ( and 'A Deer Caught In The Highlights (' from Mark and Michael's respective music projects, 'Counting Backwards (' and 'Shock Octopus ('. PGAP will soon be winding down for a short break between our fourth and fifth seasons. This is a perfect time to contact PGAP ( to let us know your feedback and what themes or guests you would like us to explore next time around. Our recent upswing in downloads continues - be part of this movement! Share this and other episodes to your family, friends and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts ( or your favourite platform. A big thanks to Sustainable Population Australia ( for supporting this podcast. You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss ( and Mark Allen ( at their websites. Episode time stamp: 0:00:00 - 0:03:09 Introduction 0:03:00 - 0:05:07 'Ice' by Counting Backwards 0:05:08 - 0:38:05 Housing Crisis? What Housing Crisis! 0:38:06 - 0:42:10 'A Deer Caught In The Headlights' by Shock Octopus 0:42:11 -...


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MMT for Activism with Gabrielle Bond

At PGAP, we are huge fans of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). However, the question is often asked, how can an understanding of MMT, or a broader understanding of economics, help the cause when it comes to degrowth advocacy or environmental activism? For this episode, we warmly welcome Gabrielle Bond, CEO of Adelaide based Modern Money Lab and member of Extinction Rebellion, to tell us more about how MMT can inform our activism toward a better, more equitable, post-growth world. For further reading, Gabrielle recommends the short article from Jason Hickel: “DEGROWTH AND MMT: A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT. (” You can find out more about Modern Money Lab here ( Gabrielle also recommends the YouTube Video: “A Message From the Future With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (”. Modern Money Lab have just opened the first two subjects of the masters degree as stand alone subjects that anyone can take: 'Foundations of Real-World Economics' and 'Foundations of Modern Money, Institutions and Markets'. Find out more here ( PGAP has touched on MMT and ecological economics several times throughout our run. We recommend checking out the Season 3 episode “Ecological Economies and MMT with Steve Williams (” You may be also interested in the Season 2 interview with Economic Reform Australia (, who are also based in Adelaide and whose Patrons, Prof Stephanie Kelton and Prof Phil Lawn, are also actively involved with Modern Money Lab. Our co-host, Mark Allen, first worked with Gabrielle through Sustainable Prosperity, where he delivered a zoom presentation on behalf of Town Planning Rebellion. The video of the presentation may be seen here. ( In April 2023, PGAP enjoyed its highest ever monthly downloads to date, doubling its average monthly downloads. This is very encouraging considering the fact that PGAP covers critical issues that are widely ignored or suppressed by mainstream media and the mainstream political landscape. Let’s work together to build on this momentum. Subscribe to PGAP ( rate/review us on your favourite platform, such as Apple Podcasts ( Share this and other episodes widely among your networks. Contact PGAP ( give us feedback and your ideas for future episodes and guests. Want to find out more about your PGAP co-hosts? You can find out more about Michael Bayliss at his website here. ( You can find out more about Mark Allen’s other work at the Holistic Activism website ( Special Guest: Gabrielle Bond.


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A Tribute to Community Groups fighting Big Overdevelopment in WA.

In the world of degrowth, the focus is often centred on the need for broad scale system change. However, it is often at the grassroots community level that real resistance against overdevelopment is truly and tangibly observed. For this very special episode of PGAP, we interview Annabel Paulley (Friends of Yakamia (, Chris Poulton (Rethink Eastlink ( and Andrew St John (Safe and Scenic Toodyay Roads ( to highlight the good work been done by community groups in South-Western Australia to fight the relentless tide of overdevelopment. Our first guest Annabel Paulley (interviewed 00:08:19 to 00:37:09) is a coordinator and key member of the Albany based Friends of Yakamia Forest ( The Friends of Yakamia have been working tirelessly to protect the titular rate payer land from being rezoned for housing and road development. The land is a fragment of the forest that once covered the northern suburbs of Albany and is home to a host of endemic and threatened plants, bird and animal species. You can find out more about Friends of Yakamia at their Facebook page here ( (Friends of Yakamia visiting state MP for Albany, Rebecca Stephens) Our second guest Chris Poulton ( interviewed 00:37:23 to 01:09:16) runs Summer Creek Restaurant and Brewery ( his family Bakers Hill, nestled in eastern side of the Perth Hills. The property and nearby Kep track have significant historical importance to Western Australia’s formative history, that will be undermined if the Eastlink highway project is passed. Find out more about Rethink Eastlink here ( You may also wish to check out the great work from the Save Perth Hills Action Group ( (Chris Poulton) Our third guest Dr Andrew St John (interviewed 01:09:32 to 01:23:54) is convenor of Safe and Scenic Toodyay Roads ( Toodyay lies on the transition between the Perth Hills and the Wheatbelt. The impact to lifestyle, legacy and the natural environment of the local scarp ecosystem is threatened by Main Roads WA and other developments (including mining and housing development). (Andrew St John) One major focus of this episode is to explore the interrelationship between the great work done at the grassroots by community action groups and the broader issue of wider system change being championed by many activists including degrowth advocates. The South-West of Western Australia is not the only region in the world in which brave citizens are defending their natural and cultural environments from the march of development, progress and concrete. Similar fights are occurring everywhere, globally, all the time. All three guests share a unique vision of their solutions to this worldwide predicament, although all are united with the view that there needs to be fundamental end to the current growth based system. Otherwise, it will be up to community groups to be perpetually putting out the spot fires. Host Michael Bayliss is joined by Mark Allen, co-host and founder of Town Planning Rebellion (, during the intro and outro. We gain his perspective on how TPR can work with local action groups to bring critical change to Australia’s broken urban planning sector. We also discuss how to have a nuanced debate on some of the thornier issues such as urban consolidation vs. urban sprawl, and visible (but seldom discussed) impacts of population growth. You can find out more about host Michael Bayliss at his website here ( and more about Mark Allen at the Holistic Activism ( website. Please support PGAP by sharing this and other episodes with your networks. Do...


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EarthCare Permaculture Ghana

For this episode of PGAP, we travel (virtually) to equatorial western Africa to speak with Innocent Kelvin Coffie, youth leader and founder of EarthCare Permaculture Ghana ( Kelvin takes us on a verbal tour of the property, the successes the property has had in up skilling new generations in food self-sufficiency, and some recent challenges that the property has endured through. Kelvin also gives some insight into how the permaculture movement is taking root in Ghana, some of the unique environmental and social challenges experienced in his country and how permaculture is one solution to solving these problems. EarthCare Permaculture Foundation needs your support. For example, a donation will help the centre invest in some much needed gardening tools and building structures. The centre is looking for volunteers and other enthusiastic people to help on site or to exchange knowledge and ideas. Follow EarthCare Permaculture Ghana on Facebook ( to find out more about how you can help. If you would like to make a donation over paypal, the email address is PGAP also needs your support! Rate and review us on Apple Podcast ( your favourite podcast platform. Share this and other episodes of PGAP among your friends and networks. Contact us ( to let us know how we’re going, where we can improve, and what topics or guests you would like to see in future episodes. Host Michael Bayliss ( feels a deep connection with the African continent and the many great thinkers and amazing grassroots community movements that are making waves. PGAP has previously interviewed Kenyan resident Robert Wanalo ( in season 1 and Ugandan born Florence Blondel ( Season 2. We highly recommend listening to those episodes. PGAP has also not shied away from covering permaculture and regenerative farming. We have interviewed some big names like David Holmgren ( and Charles Massy. ( You may also be interested in our interview with Shane Simonsen (, who grows unconventionally in subtropical Queensland, or Murray Gomm (, who grows locally to PGAP in our new home town of Albany. All views, opinions, historical and present legacies of PGAP guests are exclusively theirs and may not necessarily reflect the opinions, views and legacies held by PGAP. Special Guest: Innocent Kelvin Coffie.


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Solving climate change through ethical investment - with James Regulinski from Carbon Collective

In this episode of Post-Growth Australia, we interview James Regulinski, co-founder of Carbon Collective (, a company providing low-fee, diversified investment portfolios built for solving climate change. Inspired by the work of Project Drawdown, James and his business partner Zach Stein tackle climate change by encouraging investors to support environmentally friendly enterprises. For a podcast on Degrowth with a bias toward the anti-capitalist end of the spectrum, James is a very different kind of guest on PGAP and one who inspired much pithy discussion. For most of us in the post-growth movement, there can often be some tension around whether to ‘tap in’ and to use financial leverage to encourage improvements in the current system (e.g. Green investment, divestment, supporting the ‘green new deal’ etc.) Or, whether to ‘tap out’ or fight the system altogether. Hats off to James to going down the rabbit hole with me here, where we conclude that a mix of both approaches is the best way forward. That is, any change we do needs to have a transition to a Degrowth society as the modus operandi. On the other side of the coin, it is currently very difficult, if not impossible, to tap completely out of today’s growth based economic paradigm. To find out more about Carbon Collective, visit their website here ( This includes a fantastic introductory video from James. On PGAP, we’ve had a few discussions around the challenges of tapping out of the growth based system. In our interview with Dr. Alex Baumann (currently our top performing episode (, he discusses why the private housing market provides a financial barrier to opting out of the matrix. We’ve also had a few guests on who have made a successful change to off grid living (tapping out if you will). Mike Stasse ( Tasmania is one great example. Artist as Family ( near Daylesford Victoria) discuss how they made the change on a shoestring budget. Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Any feedback or ideas for future episodes? Contact us here. All views, opinions and legacies of our guests are exclusive theirs and do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP. Special Guest: James Regulinski.