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In this episode of the Straight White American Jesus Sunday Interview, host Leah Payne speaks with journalist Sam Kestenbaum about his reporting on celebrity pastor culture and the rise of the “hype priest.” The conversation centers on Kestenbaum’s widely discussed profile of Judah Smith, a “pastor-to-the-stars” connected to figures like Justin Bieber, and expands into a broader analysis of how millennial pastors have fused evangelical preaching with aesthetics, branding, and media performance. Sam Kestenbaum is a journalist who covers religion in America, known for his deeply reported and stylistically distinctive profiles of contemporary spiritual figures. Based in Los Angeles, his work has appeared in The New York Times, Harper’s Magazine, Rolling Stone, and beyond, where he examines the intersections of faith, politics, and culture. Together, Payne and Kestenbaum explore the Churchome experience in Los Angeles, pop-up worship in rented theaters, a creative-class audience, and a ministry shaped as much by production value and performance as by theology. They discuss how presentation - from clothing to sermon delivery - functions as a form of religious communication, as well as how figures like Judah Smith navigate political polarization by shifting toward a more therapeutic, individualized message. The conversation also maps a wider ecosystem of charismatic influencers, including those who lean more explicitly into conservative politics, and situates today’s media-savvy pastors within a longer lineage of charismatic power brokers shaping American public life. In This Episode Sam Kestenbaum’s profile of Judah Smith and the rise of the “hype priest” The Churchome model: pop-up churches, celebrity culture, and Los Angeles creatives Aesthetics, authenticity, and performance in contemporary evangelical preaching The influence of Black Pentecostal styles on white charismatic leaders Why some celebrity pastors avoid overt political alignment The next generation: influencers, revival tours, and conservative media ecosystems Figures like Greg Laurie and Bryce Crawford in the broader charismatic landscape The enduring influence of leaders like Che Ahn and the question of political power Links: Sam Kestenbaum’s website: https://samkestenbaum.com/ “The Hype Priest Who Rode the Bieber Wave: Judah Smith’s message of grace earned him many famous followers. Is he out of step with other Evangelicals?” (Vulture / New York Magazine): https://www.vulture.com/article/judah-smith-church-pastor-justin-bieber.html “The Demon Slayers: the New Age of American Exorcisms” (on Greg Locke, Harper’s Magazine): https://harpers.org/archive/2024/08/the-demon-slayers-sam-kestenbaum-exorcisms/ “‘I Think All the Christians Get Slaughtered’: Inside the MAGA Road Show Barnstorming America” (on Clay Clark, Rolling Stone): https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/clay-clark-reawaken-america-maga-tour-trump-1234594574/ Find Sam Kestenbaum at https://samkestenbaum.com/ Find Dr. Leah Payne at drleahpayne.com , subscribe on Substack, follow her on most social media platforms at @drleahpayne, listen along at Spirit & Power: Charismatics & Politics in American Life and Rock that Doesn’t Roll: The Story of Christian Rock, and read along: God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Religion scholars Brad Onishi and Dan Miller recap a week of conflict in which Pope Leo criticized war and bombing in a statement widely read as aimed at the U.S. approach to Iran, prompting a lengthy Trump Truth Social attack and backlash over an AI image of Trump as Jesus. JD Vance and Speaker Mike Johnson told the Pope to “stay in his lane” and invoked just war theory, leading Miller to explain its criteria and argue the Iran conflict fails them; the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a response defending the Pope’s teaching authority and the church’s just war tradition. The hosts frame the dispute as exposing fissures within MAGA Christian nationalism, discuss claims of nationalism turning the nation and leader into God, and analyze Pete Hegseth’s rhetoric and prayer language as further evidence, alongside GOP figures and media urging the Pope to avoid politics while promoting religion in government. 00:00 Pope Versus Trump 01:07 Why Religion Matters 02:03 Iran War And Distraction 03:22 Papal Statement And Trump Blowup 04:16 AI Jesus Backlash 06:37 JD Vance Enters Fight 09:00 Pope Warns War Profiteers 10:14 Mike Johnson Just War Spin 11:53 Just War Theory Explained 15:58 Bishops Rebuke Vance 18:39 Fissures In Christian Nationalism 21:25 Aquinas And War As Evil 27:14 MAGA Splits And Catholic Voters 29:22 Vance Authority Christianity 32:32 Power Theology And Nationalism 35:33 Vance Versus Just War 37:07 Hegseth Pulp Prayer 38:57 Vengeance Voice Swap 44:35 TPUSA Flop Fallout 47:35 Trump As Messiah 52:27 GOP Tells Pope Quiet 56:21 One Way Christian Nationalism 59:16 Who Counts As Christian 01:03:40 Task Force Irony 01:05:35 Reasons For Hope 01:08:40 Discord Hope Stories 01:08:55 Closing Hope Notes Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Brad Onishi unpacks the escalating clash between Donald Trump and Pope Leo—from Trump’s public criticism of the Pope to the now-viral AI image depicting himself as Jesus. What might seem like another headline-grabbing controversy reveals deeper tensions between political power and religious authority, especially as figures like JD Vance attempt to downplay the conflict while advancing a broader ideological vision. Going beyond the news cycle, this episode explores the concept of “civilizational populism” and how it helps explain the contradictions at play: a movement that invokes Christianity and Western civilization while sidelining actual religious institutions and leaders. By tracing the intersection of theology, nationalism, and political strategy, Onishi offers a framework for understanding why this moment matters—and what it signals about the future of religion and power in American public life. www.axismundi.us Subscribe for $3.65:⁠ ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter:⁠ ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi:⁠ ⁠⁠⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠⁠ Donate to SWAJ: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Brad Onishi unpacks the escalating clash between Donald Trump and Pope Leo—from Trump’s public criticism of the Pope to the now-viral AI image depicting himself as Jesus. What might seem like another headline-grabbing controversy reveals deeper tensions between political power and religious authority, especially as figures like JD Vance attempt to downplay the conflict while advancing a broader ideological vision. Going beyond the news cycle, this episode explores the concept of “civilizational populism” and how it helps explain the contradictions at play: a movement that invokes Christianity and Western civilization while sidelining actual religious institutions and leaders. By tracing the intersection of theology, nationalism, and political strategy, Onishi offers a framework for understanding why this moment matters—and what it signals about the future of religion and power in American public life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this week's episode, Brad Onishi navigates a high-stakes intersection of nuclear brinkmanship and theological crisis. The discussion centers on the fallout of Operation Epic against Iran, specifically Pete Hegseth’s assertion that God deserves "all the glory" for the military strike. Brad deconstructs this "Fox News theology," forcing a confrontation with the classic problem of evil: if a victory is divine, how does one account for the collateral damage of a bombed girl’s school? This moral tension coincides with a potential fracture in the MAGA coalition, as even staunch media allies like Joe Rogan and Alex Jones begin to voice public concern over Trump’s threats to Iranian civilization and the looming specter of nuclear winter. The episode then shifts to an explosive diplomatic confrontation between the Pentagon and the Vatican. Guests Dr. Thomas Lecaque and Rebecca Bratten Weiss join the show to unpack a bombshell report detailing a meeting where Under Secretary Elbridge Colby allegedly pressured Cardinal Christopher Pierre to align with U.S. interests. By invoking the Avignon Papacy—a historical period where the papacy was essentially held captive by the French monarchy—the administration issued what Lecaque describes as a "mafia-style threat" to the Holy See. The panel explores the doomed fantasy of Catholic integralism and the burgeoning rift between those following the teachings of Jesus and those weaponizing faith for geopolitical dominance. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Josh Hawley tells us that blue-collar and manual labor are the domains of true masculinity. He tells us that they are the path to freedom, and meaning, and purpose. He tells us that men have no social value if they do not undertake this kind of work. But is any of this true? Does this kind of work bring us the freedom he claims? Is he really the voice of “working men?” Or is he another elitist who benefits from the exploitation of workers while masquerading as a liberator? Dan argues that this is the real story. Listen to this week’s episode to find out why. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of Straight White American Jesus, we sit down with New Mexico Attorney General Raúl Torrez for a wide-ranging conversation about his office’s landmark case against Meta and what it reveals about the dangers embedded in today’s social media platforms. At the center of the case is “Issa,” a fictional teenage user created as part of an undercover operation that exposed just how quickly young users can be targeted with explicit content and sexual solicitations. Torres walks us through how what once existed in the darkest corners of the internet has migrated onto mainstream platforms—and how Meta’s own algorithms and product design not only failed to stop it, but in some cases appeared to amplify it. By focusing on design choices rather than user-generated content, Torres and his team were able to sidestep Section 230 protections and argue that the platform itself plays an active role in facilitating harm. The conversation also explores the broader implications of the case, from the addictive nature of social media to its parallels with Big Tobacco. TorreZ argues that waiting for definitive long-term studies on harm is a luxury we can’t afford, pointing instead to the immediate psychological, social, and physical risks facing young users. Looking ahead, he outlines potential remedies—including age verification, algorithmic reform, and independent oversight—as well as ongoing litigation against other platforms like Snapchat. The discussion closes with a warning about the next frontier: artificial intelligence. Without clear accountability and proactive regulation, Torrez suggests, the harms posed by AI could eclipse those of social media. This case, then, may represent not just a legal victory, but the beginning of a broader shift toward tech accountability in the United States. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Annika Brockschmidt sits down with historian AJ Bauer to dismantle the long-standing myth that the "liberal media" narrative was a natural reaction to biased reporting. Bauer, drawing from his book Making the Liberal Media, traces a century-long strategic project that began not with an outcry against progressivism, but with conservative efforts in the 1930s and 40s to flip a then-right-leaning press. From the grassroots mobilization of oil tycoon HL Hunt’s Facts Forum to the calculated exploitation of the Fairness Doctrine, Bauer reveals how the American Right didn't just abandon mainstream journalism—they systematically built a parallel media universe by borrowing tactics from the very progressive reformers they claimed to oppose. The conversation dives deep into the ideological split between William F. Buckley’s quest for respectability and the John Birch Society’s alternative infrastructure, showing how both paths converged to create the modern conservative media machine. Bauer explains how the "objectivity imperative" of the 20th century actually left mainstream journalists vulnerable to right-wing pressure, forcing them to constantly look over their "rightward shoulder" to prove their lack of bias. By the time the Fairness Doctrine was abolished in 1987, the groundwork had been laid for the rise of Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, ultimately transforming conservative media from a movement tool into an independent power source that paved the way for the Trump era. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of Straight White American Jesus, hosts Brad Onishi and Dan Miller unpack a chaotic and revealing week at the intersection of politics, religion, and power. As Donald Trump once again compares himself to Jesus during the lead-up to Easter, the hosts explore what they see as a deepening pattern of religious distortion within MAGA Christianity—where theological consistency gives way to political loyalty. The conversation situates Trump’s rhetoric alongside broader trends, including a controversial decision tied to U.S. Supreme Court on conversion therapy laws and mounting concerns over religious favoritism within the Pentagon under Pete Hegseth. Together, these developments paint a picture of a movement increasingly defined by power, hierarchy, and ideological purity rather than coherent moral or theological principles. The episode also dives into the implications of an 8–1 Supreme Court ruling that weakens state-level bans on conversion therapy, raising urgent questions about free speech, medical ethics, and the vulnerability of LGBTQ+ individuals. Onishi and Miller highlight the emotional and political weight of the decision, especially amid rising hostility toward queer and trans communities. They close with a discussion of the scandal surrounding Kristi Noem and her husband, using it as a lens to push hypocrisy, gender norms, and the authoritarian logic of “order” that underpins Christian nationalism. Despite the heaviness of the topics, the hosts end with cautious optimism, pointing to signs of political pushback and everyday acts of resistance as reasons for hope. Subscribe for $3.65:⁠ ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter:⁠ ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi:⁠ ⁠⁠⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠⁠ Donate to SWAJ: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode two of One Million Neighbors brings us to the chaotic final days of Saigon in April 1975, as ten-year-old Simon Hoa-Phan watches his world unravel. From the terror of nighttime bombings to the desperate crush of families fleeing toward evacuation helicopters, Simon’s story captures the fear, uncertainty, and life-altering decisions faced by thousands as South Vietnam fell. His family’s escape—narrow, chaotic, and uncertain—becomes a window into a much larger phenomenon: the mass displacement of millions across Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, where war, political upheaval, and U.S. intervention forced entire populations to flee under harrowing conditions. At the same time, across the world in St. Paul, Minnesota, Kathleen Vellenga witnesses these events from a hospital bed and feels a call to act. Her personal turning point reflects a broader movement among American faith communities, who would go on to play a central role in resettling more than a million Southeast Asian refugees. This episode traces the historical roots of that movement—from Cold War politics and moral responsibility to deeply held religious convictions—and introduces the ordinary people who made extraordinary choices to welcome strangers as neighbors. Dr. Melissa Borja is Associate Professor of American Culture and Director of the Asian/Pacific Islander American Studies at the University of Michigan. Trained at Harvard, the University of Chicago, and Columbia, she is a historian of migration, religion, race, and politics and author of Follow the New Way: American Refugee Resettlement Policy and Hmong Religious Change (Harvard University Press), which won the the Thomas Wilson Memorial Prize, the Frank S. and Elizabeth D. Brewer Prize from the American Society of Church History, and the Outstanding Achievement Award in History from the Association for Asian American Studies. Dr. Borja has advised Princeton's Religion and Forced Migration Initiative as well as the Bridging Divides Initiative, which tracks and mitigates political violence in the United States. An expert on anti-Asian racism during the Covid-19 pandemic, she leads the Virulent Hate Project and has contributed research to Stop AAPI Hate. In honor of her research and advocacy about Asian Americans, USA Today honored her as one of its 2022 Women of the Year. This podcast is part of AAPI Stories of Faith & Life, an Asian Pacific American Religions Research Initiative (APARRI) project funded by Lilly Endowment Incorporated. www.axismundi.us Executive Producer: Dr. Bradley Onishi Producer: Andrew Gill Original Music, Composition, and Mixing: Scott Okamoto Production Assistance: Kari Onishi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Josh Hawley says that men are called by God to work. In fact, he says that working is the source of God’s image within men. But what counts as “work” for Hawley? And what dogmas about work and the value of men drive his account? And how do issues like economic change and the climate crisis inform his thinking? Check out Dan’s discussion this week to find out! Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Brad Onishi introduces One Million Neighbors, a new limited series hosted by Melissa Borja. The episode opens in the Twin Cities—Minneapolis and St. Paul—where a sweeping federal immigration crackdown has transformed daily life. In early 2026, thousands of ICE agents flooded the region as part of a massive enforcement operation, conducting raids, stops, and detentions that left communities on edge and sparked protests, school closures, and economic disruption. At the center of this episode is the story of a U.S. citizen violently detained in his own home—an incident that captures the fear, confusion, and anger rippling through neighborhoods under what local leaders have described as a federal “siege.” But One Million Neighbors is not only about this moment—it’s about another one. The series reaches back to the 1970s, when many of these same communities became an epicenter of refugee resettlement, as ordinary Americans—often motivated by their faith—helped welcome more than a million people from Southeast Asia despite widespread opposition. By placing today’s ICE raids and deportation debates alongside that history, the show asks a deeper question: how did a nation once defined by radical hospitality arrive at a moment of mass enforcement—and what might it look like to choose a different path again? One Million Neighbors: https://redcircle.com/shows/1525ddb6-2be4-4115-b45f-25bbcabf6749https://redcircle.com/shows/1525ddb6-2be4-4115-b45f-25bbcabf6749 Subscribe for $3.65:⁠ ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter:⁠ ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi:⁠ ⁠⁠⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠⁠ Donate to SWAJ: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Brad Onishi sits down with therapist and author Jay Stringer to explore his new book Desire, a deep dive into how we form identity, intimacy, and meaning in a world shaped by shame and disconnection. Jay reflects on his upbringing as a pastor’s kid immersed in evangelical purity culture, including harmful messaging around sexuality reinforced by spaces like Liberty University. Together, they unpack how teachings that equate arousal with sin create lifelong shame cycles, especially for young men, and how cultural artifacts like Every Man's Battle reinforced these patterns. The conversation introduces the concept of differentiation—borrowed from biology—as a key to healthy relationships, using the metaphor of a symphony to illustrate how individuality enables deeper intimacy rather than threatening it. From there, Brad and Jay broaden the lens to examine what it means to live a meaningful life in 2026. Drawing on thinkers like Annie Dillard and Albert Camus, they explore how meaning emerges not in spite of life’s absurdity, but in response to it. They discuss the stories we inherit, the “provisional selves” we construct, and the midlife invitation to interrogate what we’ve been taught to value. The episode also tackles masculinity and vulnerability, arguing that domination and hyper-masculinity often mask unaddressed trauma, and that true connection requires risk and emotional honesty. Ultimately, they frame defiance—not despair—as the path forward: a refusal to believe our lives don’t matter, and a commitment to building lives rooted in connection, purpose, and resistance to dehumanizing cultural forces. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Brad Onishi and Dan Miller unpack a series of troubling developments surrounding Pete Hegseth’s vision for the military chaplaincy, where chaplains may soon wear only religious insignia instead of rank and operate within a drastically reduced set of approved faith codes. The hosts explore how Hegseth’s language—framing the role as a mission to “preach the truth,” “shepherd the flock,” and fulfill a “sacred calling”—signals a distinctly Christian nationalist framing of military service, reinforced by his claim that the armed forces have been “infected by political correctness and secular humanism.” They place this in historical context, noting how Japanese American Buddhist soldiers in World War II were denied adequate chaplain support despite serving in one of the most decorated units in U.S. history. The conversation also touches on reporting about Hegseth’s crusader imagery, including tattoos and a Bible stamped with “Deus Vult” and the Jerusalem Cross, raising deeper concerns about the ideological direction of military leadership. The episode then shifts to a controversial Pentagon prayer calling for “overwhelming violence” and the damnation of “wicked souls,” which the hosts connect to a broader pattern of rhetoric that glorifies brutality and frames military action in theological terms. From there, Brad and Dan examine the near-religious devotion to tax cuts within the GOP, highlighting reporting that red states are facing massive budget shortfalls as a result of Trump-backed policies—yet lawmakers continue to support them as a matter of ideological commitment rather than evidence. They close by discussing Trump’s absence from CPAC, the unease among attendees regarding Iran, and the irony of Trump mailing in his ballot despite his long-standing opposition to mail-in voting, underscoring what they describe as a deeply transactional and contradictory approach to politics. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Josh Hawley says that the crisis of masculinity in America is due to the fact that men won’t work. And the reason they won’t work, he assures us, is because liberal elites have convinced them not to. But what does Hawley overlook to tell this story? How does he ignore his own status as a cultural elite, and his political party’s support of economic policies that favor the elites? What is Hawley hiding behind his appeals to masculinity? Listen to this week’s episode and Dan will fill you in! Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of Straight White American Jesus features Brad Onishi unpacking a central claim gaining traction on the political and religious right: that the American presidency was always meant to function like a monarchy. In light of the nationwide “No Kings” protests, Onishi challenges arguments from figures like Michael Knowles and Adrian Vermeule, who suggest that the founders embedded a “kingly” executive into the Constitution. He traces how thinkers drawing on Thomas Aquinas use the language of the “common good” to justify stronger, more centralized authority—potentially at the expense of democratic participation and individual rights. The episode ultimately argues that this reframing of American government is not just historical revisionism, but a strategic effort to normalize authoritarian leadership under religious justification. By contrasting these claims with the founders’ explicit rejection of monarchy, Onishi underscores the stakes of the current moment: whether democracy remains a shared project rooted in the will of the people, or gives way to a model where power is consolidated in a single figure claiming moral authority. The call to “No Kings,” then, becomes not just a protest slogan, but a defense of democratic principles against rising theocratic and authoritarian visions of governance. Order American Caesar: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/american-caesar-bradley-b-onishi/1148909845?ean=9781250427922 Subscribe for $3.65:⁠ ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter:⁠ ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠⁠ Donate to SWAJ: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of the Straight White American Jesus Sunday Interview, host Leah Payne speaks with award-winning journalist and historian Caleb Gayle about his acclaimed book Black Moses: A Saga of Ambition and the Fight for a Black State. Caleb Gayle is an award-winning journalist and professor at Northeastern University. He is the author of We Refuse to Forget: A True Story of Black Creeks, American Identity, and Power and a contributing writer at The New York Times Magazine. His work has also appeared in The Atlantic, TIME, The Guardian, Guernica, The New Republic, and The Boston Globe. Longlisted for the National Book Award for Nonfiction, named one of The Washington Post’s Best Nonfiction Books of the Year, and selected as a New York Times Editors’ Choice, Black Moses tells the remarkable story of Edward McCabe, a Black political leader who nearly succeeded in founding a Black-governed state in the Oklahoma Territory at the turn of the twentieth century. Together, Payne and Gayle explore McCabe’s ambitious political vision, the racial politics of the American West, and the broader historical context of Reconstruction, westward expansion, and Indigenous displacement. The conversation also reflects on how forgotten stories like McCabe’s challenge familiar narratives about American democracy, race, and political imagination. In this episode: The cinematic structure of Black Moses and how Gayle and his editor shaped the narrative Who Edward McCabe was and why his story has largely disappeared from mainstream American history McCabe’s audacious plan to create a Black state in the Oklahoma Territory The Reconstruction-era search for Black self-determination and how McCabe’s vision differed from projects in Liberia or Haiti The American West as a site of competing dreams—and conflicts—among Black settlers, white settlers, and Indigenous nations McCabe’s political strategy: organizing, coalition building, and attracting Black migration to Oklahoma Why Oklahoma ultimately aligned itself with Jim Crow politics during statehood The unfinished project of American democracy and the importance of political imagination Black Moses: A Saga of Ambition and the Fight for a Black State by Caleb Gayle Can the Rodeo Save a Historic Black Town? One woman’s quest to rescue Boley, Oklahoma, The Atlantic, by Caleb Gayle In This EpisodeLinks: We Refuse to Forget: A True Story of Black Creeks, American Identity, and Power by Caleb GayleFind Professor Gayle at www.calebgayle.com, Instagram: @calebgayle, Twitter: @gaylecalebFind Dr. Leah Payne at drleahpayne.com, subscribe on Substack, follow her on most social media platforms at @drleahpayne, listen along at Spirit & Power: Charismatics & Politics in American Life & Rock that Doesn’t Roll: the Story of Christian Rock, and read along: God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to Straight White American Jesus. In this episode, Brad Onishi and co-host Dan Miller dig into the resignation of Joe Kent and the unraveling narrative around Iran. Kent’s claim—that Iran posed no imminent nuclear threat—directly contradicts statements from figures like Mike Johnson and exposes what the hosts see as a familiar pattern: shifting justifications, vague timelines, and a disregard for expertise in favor of political loyalty. The conversation traces how dissent from within MAGA ranks—especially from someone like Kent—signals fractures in the movement, even as those critiques are quickly dismissed by Donald Trump. For Onishi and Miller, the deeper issue is a political culture where intelligence, experience, and even firsthand knowledge of war are subordinated to rhetoric, loyalty, and “feelings” about national security. The episode then widens its lens, connecting foreign policy to a broader “culture of death” that the hosts argue defines the current political moment. From Pete Hegseth’s blunt justification that “it takes money to kill bad guys” to the rhetoric emerging from his religious circle—where his pastor Brooks Potteiger and podcast host Joshua Haymes discussed James Talarico in terms that included prayers for his death and suggestions he should be “stopped by any means necessary”—Onishi and Miller highlight a throughline of violence, dehumanization, and theological justification for harm. They argue that this kind of language—casting opponents as enemies of God or demonic threats—creates a moral framework where violence becomes not just acceptable but righteous. The result is a dangerous fusion of nationalism, militarism, and extremist theology, where political disagreement is reframed as spiritual warfare and the stakes are nothing less than life, death, and the future of American democracy. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the end of his chapter on men as “warriors,” we finally get to his full vision of what a “warrior” is. What does Hawley have to tell us? Is there anything specifically “war-like” about his warriors? Or anything specifically Christian? Or even anything particularly masculine. Not so much, as it turns out. As Dan argues in this episode, Hawley’s really just in it for the culture war. Take a listen and check it out! Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Brad Onishi takes on a provocative question: is James Talarico really a “liberal Christian nationalist,” as critics on both the right and left have claimed following his primary victory over Jasmine Crockett? Drawing on the widely cited definition from sociologists Andrew Whitehead and Samuel Perry, the episode breaks down what Christian nationalism actually is: a fusion of Christian and American identity, a belief in divine sanction for political domination, and a moral framework that privileges Christians as uniquely legitimate citizens. Onishi argues that simply being a religious politician—or even using theological language in public debate—does not meet this threshold, pushing back on claims from figures like William Wolfe and C.J. Engel, as well as critiques from scholars like Heath Carter. Through close analysis of Talarico’s own words and political theology, the episode contends that his emphasis on pluralism, the separation of church and state, and universal human dignity stands in direct opposition to Christian nationalist ideology. Rather than advocating for a theocratic state or privileging Christians above others, Talarico frames his faith as a call to inclusive democracy and care for all neighbors. Onishi warns that labeling figures like Talarico as “Christian nationalists” risks flattening important distinctions and obscuring the anti-democratic aims of actual Christian nationalist movements. The result is a deeper exploration of how faith can show up in politics without undermining democracy—and why precision in our language matters now more than ever. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices