The Michael Shermer Show

Why do ordinary people carry out extraordinary harm when simply told to do so? From the Holocaust to the genocides in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Cambodia, history shows how obedience to authority can lead to unimaginable acts. But what’s happening in the brain when we follow orders—even ones that conflict with our morals? In this episode, we speak with neuroscientist Emilie Caspar, whose groundbreaking research explores how authority influences cognition and behavior. Drawing from real-life accounts of genocide perpetrators and cutting-edge neuroscience, Caspar reveals how obedience can short-circuit independent decision-making—often without us realizing it. Emilie Caspar is a professor at Ghent University, Belgium, where she leads the Moral and Social Brain Lab. She specializes in social neuroscience. Her main research areas focus on obedience and how restricting one’s autonomy and choice options impacts the brain. Her new book is Just Following Orders: Atrocities and the Brain Science of Obedience.

Amanda Knox spent nearly four years in prison and eight years on trial for a murder she didn’t commit—and became a notorious tabloid story in the process. Though she was exonerated, it’s taken more than a decade for her to reclaim her identity and truly feel free. Amanda’s new book, Free recounts how she survived prison, the mistakes she made and misadventures she had reintegrating into society, culminating in the untold story of her return to Italy and the extraordinary relationship she’s built with the man who sent her to prison. Amanda tells the story of her personal growth and hard fought wisdom, recasting her public reckoning as a private reflection on the search for meaning and purpose that will speak to everyone persevering through hardship.

Albert Einstein remains renowned around the world for revolutionizing our understanding of the cosmos, but very few realize that the celebrated scientist had a deep spiritual side. Einstein believed that one wondrous force was woven through all things everywhere—and this sense of the pervasive sacred influenced every aspect of his existence, from his marvelous science to his passionate pacifism. Kieran Fox studied medicine at Stanford University and holds a doctorate in cognitive neuroscience from the University of British Columbia. He is a physician-scientist at the The University of California, San Francisco, where his research centers on the neural mechanisms and therapeutic potential of meditation practices and psychedelic medicines. His new book is I Am a Part of Infinity. More information: https://www.iamapartofinfinity.com/

Outside of the academics and activists whose ideology came to dominate the West in the second decade of the twenty-first century, arguably no group influenced public discourse as much as the Intellectual Dark Web. Challenging the intellectual and cultural orthodoxies that engulfed universities, the media, and big tech, this group—a loose collective of politically diverse intellectuals, commentators, and scholars critical of political correctness, identity politics, and cancel culture—relied on alternative platforms like podcasts, digital magazines, and YouTube to promote free speech, universal rights, and individual liberty. While the term is most commonly identified with Sam Harris, Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Bret and Eric Weinstein, and Joe Rogan, the group’s concerns and philosophy extended more broadly to include a wide range of individuals who helped mainstream critiques of “woke” culture and a robust defense of free speech, including Steven Pinker, Michael Shermer, Jonathan Haidt, Dave Rubin, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Stephen Fry. The Intellectual Dark Web’s coherence began to unravel in the early 2020s due to internal differences (such as over the response to COVID-19 and climate change), and its full legacy and historical impact are yet to be determined. Jamie Roberts is a lecturer in the Department of Government and International Relations at the University of Sydney. His new book is The Intellectual Dark Web: A History (and Possible Future).

In all animals, mating is a deal. But few creatures behave as if sex is a simple, even mutually beneficial, transaction. Many more treat it with reverence, suspicion, angst, and violence. Matt Ridley revisits Darwin’s revelatory theory of mate choice through the close study of the peculiar rituals of birds, and considers how this mating process complicates our own view of human evolution. Ridley also explores the scientific research into the evolution of bright colors, exotic ornaments, and elaborate displays in birds around the world. Charles Darwin thought the purpose of such displays was to “charm” females. Though Darwin’s theory was initially dismissed and buried for decades, recent scientific research has proven him newly right—there is a powerful evolutionary force quite distinct from natural selection: mate choice. In Birds, Sex and Beauty, Ridley reopens the history of Darwin’s vexed theory, laying bare a century of disagreement about an idea so powerful, so weird, and so wonderful, we may have yet to fully understand its implications. Matt Ridley is the bestselling author of The Rational Optimist and Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19 (with Alina Chan). His books have sold over a million copies. Ridley served in the House of Lords from 2013 to 2021 and is a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, the Academy of Medical Sciences, and an honorary member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. His latest book is Birds, Sex and Beauty: The Extraordinary Implications of Charles Darwin’s Strangest Idea.

Phil Tinline, author of the new book Ghosts of Iron Mountain, explores the origins of the infamous Report from Iron Mountain, its role in conspiracy culture, and its lasting influence on perceptions of the military-industrial complex. The conversation also examines Holocaust denial, nativism, and the evolution of deep state conspiracies, highlighting the power of narratives in shaping democracy and public trust. Tinline is a British freelance writer and documentarian. His book The Death of Consensus: 100 Years of British Political Nightmares was named The Times (London) Politics Book of the Year. Over two decades at the BBC, he has produced and presented acclaimed documentaries on the impact of political history on contemporary life.

A few reflections on religion following The Free Press debate in Austin, TX on February 27, 2025. Michael Shermer and Adam Carolla (atheists) faced off against Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ross Douthat (Christians). You can watch the debate here: https://www.thefp.com/p/watch-does-the-west-need-a-religious

Michael and Katherine Stewart discuss the rise of religious nationalism in America, its impact on public education, and the broader implications for democracy. They explore the strategies employed by religious groups to infiltrate public schools, the culture wars surrounding education, and the divisive nature of the New Right. Katherine Stewart is the author of The Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism, the award-winning book upon which the documentary feature, God & Country, produced by Rob Reiner, is based. She has covered the intersection of faith and politics for over 15 years. Her new book is Money, Lies, and God.

Michael Shermer and Jeff Sebo explore moral philosophy, focusing on animal rights, sentience, and consciousness. They discuss the definitions of morality, ethical pluralism, and the divide between consequentialism and deontology. The conversation examines who belongs in our moral circle, the ethics of insect farming, the future of animal agriculture, abortion, and whether advanced AI could be considered sentient beings or even co-citizens.

The guests today are co-authors of a new paper in Science Advances titled: “A reassessment of the ‘hard-steps’ model for the evolution of intelligent life.” Jennifer Macalady is a Professor of Geosciences at the Pennsylvania State University. Her research is focused on microbial ecology and evolution, and interactions between microorganisms and Earth materials like minerals and water through geologic time. Daniel B. Mills is a postdoctoral researcher in the Orsi Geomicrobiology Lab at The University of Munich in Germany. His research focuses on the co-evolutionary history of Earth's surface environment and eukaryotic life—a topic he approaches by studying modern marine organisms and environments. He also applies this research to the ongoing search for exoplanetary biosignatures and technosignatures. Shermer, Mills, and Macalady discuss the Hard Steps model of the evolution of intelligent life, the Drake Equation, the Fermi Paradox, the Great Filter, and the Great Silence. They also cover the Rare Earth hypothesis, major transitions in evolution, the uniqueness of humans, and the search for biosignatures and technosignatures.

What is a sugar daddy, really? The answer might disturb you. Brook Urick takes us into the shadowy world of sugar dating, where young women are lured into dangerous situations under the guise of financial security. From being a would-be sugar baby to becoming the public face of SeekingArrangement, Urick unveils the unsettling truth about these platforms and their role in enabling predatory behavior. Urick’s revelations go beyond personal experience. She exposes how these websites intentionally protect exploiters, with their founder even caught in a sting operation attempting to meet a minor. With the passage of FOSTA-SESTA in 2018, making these platforms criminally liable, she questions why they still exist. Her goal? To bring public awareness and legal scrutiny to an industry built on deception and harm. Shermer and Urick discuss the realities of sugar dating, the blurred lines between sex work and exploitation, and the psychology of men and women in the industry. They explore legal and ethical debates, feminist perspectives, and societal consequences of prostitution and pornography. Urick shares her experiences at SeekingArrangement, including the dangers young women face and the website’s role in fostering systemic abuse and deception.

In our 501st episode, Michael Shermer takes a moment to reflect on his long journey with skepticism and what he learned recording half a thousand episodes of this podcast. He shares his thoughts on what it means for something to be truly “real” by comparing our personal experiences with evidence-backed facts, tackles the challenge of controversial and extraordinary claims, and even explores how mystical ideas or literary works can offer their own kind of truth.

What happens to American democracy if Christianity is no longer able, or no longer willing, to perform the functions on which our constitutional order depends? Jonathan Rauch—a lifelong atheist—reckons candidly with both the shortcomings of secularism and the corrosion of Christianity. Thin Christianity, as Rauch calls the mainline church, has been unable to inspire and retain believers. Worse, a Church of Fear has distorted white evangelicalism in ways that violate the tenets of both Jesus and James Madison. What to do? For answers, Rauch looks to a new generation of religious thinkers, as well as to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has placed the Constitution at the heart of its spiritual teachings. In this timely critique Rauch addresses secular Americans who think Christianity can be abandoned, and Christian Americans who blame secular culture for their grievances. The two must work together, he argues, to confront our present crisis. He calls on Christians to recommit to the teachings of their faith that align with Madison, not MAGA, and to understand that liberal democracy, far from being oppressive, is uniquely protective of religious freedom. At the same time, he calls on secular liberals to understand that healthy religious institutions are crucial to the survival of the liberal state. Jonathan Rauch is a senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution in Washington DC and a contributing writer of The Atlantic. His new book is Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy.

Dr. Rachel Toles, a licensed forensic psychologist, delves into the psychology of criminals, addressing the motivations behind some of the world’s most notorious killers. Her expertise spans trauma, addiction, and impulse control, culminating in her upcoming U.S. theater tour, The Psychology of a Murderer. Through captivating case studies, Toles sheds light on the dark corners of human behavior. In her show and forthcoming book, Toles examines the pathways leading ordinary people to commit extraordinary violence. She explores infamous cases, including Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Manson, while revealing a proprietary formula for understanding evil. Her work intertwines cutting-edge psychology with gripping storytelling, leaving audiences both disturbed and enlightened. Shermer and Toles discuss the psychology of mass murderers, causes of evil, and the fascination with true crime. They analyze infamous killers like Dahmer, the Menendez Brothers, and Manson, exploring traits like narcissism and psychopathy. Topics include experiments like Milgram’s and the Stanford Prison Study, factors driving violence, and why ordinary individuals can commit atrocities.

Just as surgeons once believed pain was good for their patients, some argue today that death brings meaning to life. But given humans rarely live beyond a century (while certain whales can thrive for over two hundred years) it’s hard not to see our biological limits as profoundly unfair. No wonder then that most people nearing death wish they still had more time. Yet, with ever-advancing science, will the ends of our lives always loom so close? Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston is a neuroscientist at Monash University, Australia, where he investigates methods for characterizing the nature of conscious experiences. His research interests range from the decline, preservation and rescue of cognitive function at different stages of the lifespan.

In this episode, Kurt Gray offers a groundbreaking perspective on the moral mind, challenging the assumption that liberals and conservatives have radically different moral foundations. Drawing on the latest science, he reveals that everyone’s moral judgments stem from feelings of vulnerability to harm. We all care about protecting ourselves and others, but conflict arises when we perceive harm differently. Gray explores how moral outrage is triggered when we disagree about who the “real” victim is, whether in political debates, personal conflicts, or even everyday situations.

It’s clear states, borders, and countries constantly evolve. But how do countries form? And what does it take to start a new one? In this episode, Michael interviews Erick Brimen, founder of Prospera, a project dedicated to creating Special Economic Zones that foster economic growth through free-market governance. Brimen shares insights into the challenges of governance in developing nations, lessons learned from Venezuela’s economic collapse (despite the country having the world’s largest oil reserves), and successful governance models in places like Dubai (a small desert fishing and pearl diving village until the early 1970s) and Hong Kong (under British rule until 1997).

William Green delves into the lives of iconic investors like Buffett, Munger, and Templeton, unraveling how their approaches extend beyond financial success. These super-investors possess unique skills such as rigorous thinking, resilience, and intuition. Through years of interviews, Green reveals how their principles can improve decision-making, manage risks, and help us thrive in uncertain environments. William Green has written for top publications like Time, Forbes, and The Economist, and edited Time’s Asian and European editions. He coauthored several books, including Guy Spier’s The Education of a Value Investor. Born in London, he studied English at Oxford and earned a journalism master’s at Columbia. Now based in New York, he lives with his family. His latest book is Richer, Wiser, Happier: How the World’s Greatest Investors Win in Markets and Life. Shermer and Green discuss the financial literacy of Americans, the mechanics of wealth creation, and the psychology behind investment decisions. They cover the stock market, the importance of resilience, and the relationship between money, happiness, and luck. The conversation includes wisdom from legendary investors, the power of compound interest, and practical strategies for financial independence.

In the U.S. alone, more than $400 billion are donated to charity each year—equivalent to two percent of American GDP. This generosity is wonderful, but these gifts don’t do nearly as much good as they could. In recent years, researchers have started studying the effectiveness of different charities, just as investors study the effectiveness of different companies. These researchers ask questions like: How much money does it cost for this charity to save someone’s life? The answers are stunning. Charity experts estimate that the most effective charities are about 100 times more effective than typical charities. For example, you can do more good by donating $100 to a highly effective charity than by donating $10,000 to a typical charity. Shermer and Greene discuss effective altruism, evidence-based philanthropy, and GivingMultiplier’s unique model for maximizing charitable impact. They explore moral judgment theories, from deontology to consequentialism, and delve into complex topics like donor fatigue, public vs. private solutions, abortion, capital punishment, and political polarization. Greene shares practical insights into addressing societal divides and inspiring collective action. Joshua Greene is a Professor of Psychology at Harvard, where he teaches “Evolving Morality: From Primordial Soup to Superintelligent Machines,” one of the university’s most popular courses. He is also the author of Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason, and the Gap Between Us and Them, which integrates moral philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience to explain the underlying causes of modern conflict. Josh’s latest applied research has led to novel, evidence-based strategies for reducing political animosity and inspiring thousands of people to support nonprofits addressing extreme poverty, climate change, and other pressing societal issues. His new organization is GivingMultiplier.org.

In The Suggestible Brain, cognitive psychologist Amir Raz delves into how suggestions can influence everything from wine preferences to memory and emotional reactions. As society grapples with misinformation, Raz’s research spans across cognitive psychology, sociology, and culture, emphasizing the profound impact of suggestion on both personal and collective levels. Raz’s expertise, merging magic with neuropsychology, unveils actionable insights for utilizing suggestion to enhance mental resilience and defend against manipulation. Dr. Raz’s career includes roles as Canada Research Chair and Director of the Institute for Interdisciplinary Brain and Behavioral Sciences. A speaker and author, his insights on suggestion have been widely recognized by media and academic audiences. His work, grounded in extensive research and engaging storytelling, highlights the interconnectedness of suggestion with consciousness, memory, and identity. Shermer and Raz discuss: the evolutionary basis of suggestibility, how brain imaging captures the power of suggestion, and the psychology behind hypnosis, meditation, and placebos. They discuss historical influences like Milgram’s obedience studies and explore suggestibility’s role in social contagions and cults. Raz also shares insights on psychedelics, neurofeedback, and using suggestion to manage conditions like ADHD, depression, and anxiety.