Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today, I’m talking with Willem Avé, who’s the head of product at Square. You know Square — it was started by billionaire Jack Dorsey of Twitter fame more than 15 years ago, and it got big on the back of that little magnetic reader that once plugged into the headphone jack of the iPhone and let small businesses accept credit cards. Nowadays, of course, Square is more than a credit card reader, and sadly, the headphone jack is ancient history. The company itself is now part of parent organization called Block, which is made up of a very interesting mix of financial services like Afterpay, Cash App, and, yes, the streaming music service Tidal. So Willem and I really got into where Square is headed next with AI and automation, why he’s excited about crypto and Bitcoin specifically, and even what it means that the US is discontinuing the penny. Links: Square’s public roadmap | Square Jack Dorsey is reorganizing the entirety of Block | Fortune How Block turned Square into a financial services giant | Fast Company Block to roll out bitcoin payments on Square | Square Square buys $170 million worth of bitcoin | CNBC Square, Jack Dorsey’s payments company, changes its name to Block | NYT The penny dies at 232 | NYT Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Verge senior AI reporter Hayden Field about some of the people responsible for studying AI and deciding in what ways it might… well, ruin the world. Those folks work at Anthropic as part of a group called the societal impacts team, which Hayden just spent time with for a profile she published this week on The Verge. The team is just nine people out of more than 2,000 who work at the Anthropic, and their only job, as the team members themselves say, is to investigate and publish quote "inconvenient truths” about AI. That of course brings up a whole host of problems, the most important of which is whether this team can remain independent, or even exist at all, as it publicizes findings about Anthropic's own products that might be unflattering or even politically fraught. Links: It’s their job to keep AI from destroying everything | The Verge Anthropic details how it measures Claude’s wokeness | The Verge White House orders tech companies to make AI bigoted again | The Verge Chaos and lies: Why Sam Altman was booted from OpenAI | The Verge How Elon Musk Is remaking Grok in his image | NYT Anthropic tries to defuse White House backlash | Axios New AI battle: White House vs. Anthropic | Axios Anthropic will pursue gulf state investments after all | Wired Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

IBM was instrumental to the entire 20th century of computing — but it's a lot harder for most of us to see what it's been up to during this century. That's because it's fully an enterprise company, and CEO Arvind Krishna says that business is booming. But there’s a huge change coming to that business as well, as Watson-style deep learning has given way to LLMs and generative AI. Sure, Arvind says IBM got there a little too early. But he doesn’t seem concerned that IBM would be stuck on the sidelines. Links: Computer wins on ‘Jeopardy!’: Trivial, it’s not | New York Times (2011) What Ever Happened to IBM’s Watson? | New York Times (2021) America Forgot About IBM Watson. Is ChatGPT Next? | The Atlantic IBM acquires Red Hat | The Verge IBM and Groq Partner to Accelerate Enterprise AI Deployment | IBM IBM’s Jerry Chow on the future of quantum computing | Decoder IBM: quantum computing partnership with AMD is bearing fruit | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Nilay. It’s been great being back in the Decoder chair this fall, and we’ve got a bunch of great episodes coming up to round out the year. But the production team is off this week for the holiday, so today, we’re going to share this episode of The Gray Area with you. This time, host Sean Illing is talking to data scientist Hannah Ritchie — about climate science and how although the crisis is definitely real, it’s not all bad news. There are actually a lot of great indicators out there in the data that show real progress in limiting emissions and boosting clean energy. It’s a nuanced, hopeful take at a time when, admittedly, it kind of feels like all the news about everything is pretty doom and gloom. Links: We can have growth while fighting climate change | Vox The Grey Area | Apple Podcasts Clearing the Air | Hannah Ritchie Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, let’s talk about AI and what I’ve been calling the “DoorDash problem.” This is about to define the next battle in AI, and it might completely transform not only how you order a sandwich, but also how the entire internet economy works in general. If you’ve been listening to the show this past year, you’ve heard me bring up the Doordash problem nearly a dozen times. I’ve been asking CEOs and leaders in tech and AI about it any chance I can get. Now, a lawsuit between Amazon and Perplexity is bringing this exact issue to the forefront, kicking off a major AI browser fight that could define the future of agents and the web itself. Links: Amazon and Perplexity have kicked off the great AI web browser fight | The Verge Amazon sues to stop Perplexity from using AI tool to buy stuff | Bloomberg Amazon's Cease and Desist letter to Perplexity | Amazon Bullying Is not innovation | Perplexity Amazon gets hit by a Comet | Platformer Humans Only! Why Amazon doesn’t want AI shoppers | NY Mag Amazon vs Perplexity: the AI agent war has arrived | The Guardian Amazon ad revenue soars 24 percent to $17.7 billion | THR Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jamie Simonoff, founder of Ring, won't let me call him the CEO. He says his title is and always has been 'chief inventor.' His mission with Ring is to make the world safer, and he has a pretty expansive view of what that means. He told The Verge last month he thought Ring could 'almost zero out crime' in some neighborhoods within a year or two. That's a big promise — and also potentially a very troubling one, as we face the erosion of privacy and a surveillance panopticon that only ever seems to expand. Links: Ring CEO: Cameras can almost ‘zero out crime’ within 12 months | The Verge Ring plans to scan everyone’s face at the door | The Washington Post Ring’s Search Party is on by default; should you opt out? | The Verge Ring now works with video surveillance company Flock | The Verge US spy agencies getting a one-stop shop to buy personal data | The Intercept Do Video Doorbells Really Prevent Crime? | Scientific American Ding Dong: How Ring went from Shark Tank Reject to Everyone’s Front Door | Amazon Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So a lot of people think AI is a bubble. So we sent Verge senior reporter Liz Lopatto out to report on the AI bubble — whether it's real, how it might pop, and what all of this means.She’s joining the show today to talk about a particular company that sits right in the middle of all of it. That company is called CoreWeave, and Liz has spent considerable time diving into its history, its financials, and the truly fascinating story that all of that tells us about the modern AI boom. Links: CoreWeave CEO plays down concerns about AI-spending bubble | WSJ Why debt funding is ratcheting up the risks of the AI boom | NYT Inside the data centers that train AI and drain the electrical grid | The New Yorker How a crypto miner transformed Into the multibillion-dollar backbone of AI | Wired CoreWeave signs $14 billion AI infrastructure deal with Meta | Reuters CoreWeave, Nvidia sign $6.3 billion cloud computing capacity order | Reuters Nvidia turned CoreWeave into major player in AI years before saving its IPO | CNBC CoreWeave inks $6.5 billion deal with OpenAI | CNBC ‘Project Osprey:’ How Nvidia seeded CoreWeave’s rise | The Information For this startup, Nvidia GPUs are currency | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with a very special guest: Sir Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the World Wide Web. Tim is a legend in the history of the internet. He created HTML and HTTP. It doesn’t really get more foundational than that — Tim was there at the very very beginning of the modern internet. He also has a new memoir out called This Is For Everyone: The Unfinished Story of the World Wide Web. So Tim joined the show to talk about the state of the web, as well as his current work at the decentralization startup Inrupt, and, of course, where AI fits into the conversation. Links: This Is For Everyone | Macmillan The Semantic Web | W3C Tim Berners-Lee invented the web, now wants to save it | The New Yorker Why I gave the world wide web away for free | The Guardian Amazon, Perplexity kick off the great AI web browser fight | The Verge Web War III | The Verge Google admits the open web is in ‘rapid decline’ | The Verge Cloudflare will now block AI crawlers by default | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We keep hearing over and over that generative AI is causing massive problems in education, both in K-12 schools and at the college level. Lots of people are worried about students using ChatGPT to cheat on assignments, and that is a problem. But really, the issues go a lot deeper, to the very philosophy of education itself. We sat down and talked to a lot of teachers — you’ll hear many of their voices throughout this episode — and we kept hearing one cri du coeur again and again: What are we even doing here? What’s the point? Links: Majority of high school students use gen AI for schoolwork | College Board Quarter of teens have used ChatGPT for schoolwork | Pew Research Your brain on ChatGPT | MIT Media Lab My students think it’s fine to cheat with AI. Maybe they’re on to something. | Vox How children understand & learn from conversational AI | McGill University ‘File not Found’ | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

David Risher was on Lyft's board for years, but only stepped in as CEO in 2023, to help turn the company around. He's done pretty well so far, but there are still a lot of open questions for him to face. It's not just competition for riders and drivers Lyft has to deal with; it’s the future of transportation itself, and new AI tools that might take apps like Lyft out of the equation entirely. Links: Lyft’s first ‘robotaxis’ are live in Atlanta | The Verge Tensor robocar will be “Lyft ready” out of the factory | Engadget Congrats, Lyft | The Verge Lyft’s AI assistant offers drivers advice on how to make money | The Verge Lyft gets toehold in Europe with FreeNow acquisition | The Verge Lyft co-founders to step down as company struggles | New York Times How Silicon Valley enshittified the internet | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Sarah Jeong, features editor at The Verge. I’m standing in for Nilay for one final Thursday episode here as he settles back into full-time hosting duties. Today, we’ve got a fun one. I’m talking to Cory Doctorow, prolific author, internet activist, and arguably one of the fiercest tech critics writing today. He has a new book out called Enshittifcation: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It. So I sat down with Cory to discuss what enshittification is, why it’s happening, and how we might fight it. Links: Enshittification | Macmillan Why every website you used to love is getting worse | Vox The age of Enshittification | The New Yorker Yes, everything online sucks now — but it doesn’t have to | Ars Technica The enshittification of garage-door openers reveals vast, deadly rot | Cory Doctorow Mark Zuckerberg emails outline plan to neutralize competitors | The Verge Google gets to keep Chrome, judge rules in antitrust case | The Verge How Amazon wins: by steamrolling rivals and partners | WSJ A new web DRM standard has security researchers worried | The Verge Netflix, Microsoft & Google just changed how the web works | The Outline Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

LexisNexis is one of the most important companies in the entire legal system. For ages it's been where you went to look up case law and do legal research. There isn’t a lawyer today who hasn’t used it — it’s fundamental infrastructure for the legal profession, just like email or a word processor. But in 2025, apparently nobody can resist the siren call of AI, and LexisNexis is no different. The first word Sean said to describe LexisNexis wasn’t “law” or “data,” it was “AI.” And I had questions, because so far AI has created just as much chaos and slop in the courts as anywhere else. Links: Errors found in judge’s withdrawn decision stink of AI | The Verge Why do lawyers keep using ChatGPT? | The Verge Conservative judge says AI could strengthen originalist movement | Reuters LexisNexis CEO says it’s ‘a matter of time’ before attorney loses a license | Fortune Two companies ruled legal tech for decades. AI is blowing that open | BI Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today’s guests are General Motors CEO Mary Barra and new GM Chief Product Officer Sterling Anderson. There’s a lot of big news the company just announced, including a Google Gemini-powered AI assistant that's coming to new cars and an entirely new hardware and software platform coming to the Escalade IQ in 2028 alongside true Level 3 autonomous driving. So I asked Mary about all of that and how she's navigating the current moment, and her company's relationship with the Trump administration. I also got into the details on GM’s platform with Sterling, including its decision to ditch Apple CarPlay on its EVs and what all this looks like in the future as AI voice assistants and more capable autonomy come into the mix. Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links: GM says hands-free, eyes-off driving is coming to Escalade IQ | The Verge GM takes a $1.6 billion hit on EVs | ⁠The Verge GM software boss on ditching CarPlay | Decoder Ford CEO on China, tariffs, and the quest for a $30,000 EV | Decoder The EV tax credit is gone — now the hard part begins | Decoder GM blocks dealership from installing CarPlay retrofit kits in EVs | The Verge Everybody hates GM’s decision to kill Apple CarPlay | The Verge GM hires ex-Tesla, Aurora exec as chief product officer | CNBC Cruise’s robotaxi service will shut down as GM pulls its funding | The Verge Newsom names GM’s Mary Barra as villain in fight with feds | Streetlight CA Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay. I’m back from parental leave, and I’m really excited to jump back into Decoder. Today’s episode is a special one: I’m talking to Zocdoc CEO Oliver Kharraz, and we chatted live on stage at the TechFutures conference in New York City. You’re almost certainly familiar with ZocDoc — it’s a platform that helps people find and book appointments with doctors. It’s a classic of the early app economy. The big difference is that Zocdoc plugs into the U.S. healthcare system, which is of course a giant mess, and that means Zocdoc has a big moat. So we talked about competition, navigating the US healthcare system, and, of course, what AI is doing to medicine. Links: "Superhuman" AI could transform medicine, Zocdoc CEO says | Axios How AI is changing your doctors appointments | Fast Company This Strategy ‘Nearly Killed’ Zocdoc. | Inc. Zocdoc Turns 18 | Oliver Kharraz / LinkedIn Meet Zo, the AI Phone Assistant for healthcare | Zocdoc Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Jake Kastrenakes, executive editor at The Verge. I’m filling in for Nilay here while he settles back into full-time hosting duties. We’ve got a very good episode for you today. My guest is Verge transportation editor Andy Hawkins, and we’re talking about the federal EV tax credit. The tax credit expired at the end of September, and there are a lot of questions about what happens to the auto industry after its demise. This is a really hard, complicated set of problems, with a lot of moving parts, so I was really excited to have Andy on the show to break down all of these components and give us a clearer picture about what’s coming next. Links: The EV tax credit is dead — here’s what happens next | The Verge GM takes a $1.6 billion hit on EVs | The Verge Ford CEO Jim Farley on China, tariffs, and affordable EV | The Verge Ford lost $5 billion on EVs in 2024, teases new models | The Verge EV makers fill tax-credit void with costly discounts | Automotive News So much for Ford and GM’s scheme to extend the EV tax credit | The Verge Stellantis replaces EV tax credit with its own discount | Automotive News Tesla sales picking up thanks to expiring tax credit | The Verge California Reverses Pledge To Revive EV Tax Credit | SF Chronicle Global EV sales growth slows to 15% in August, research firm says | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a paid subscriber to the Verge, there's great news: you can now listen to Decoder, Version History, and The Vergecast completely ad-free. Just head to your Account Settings page to opt-in and start listening without ads. Not a member of The Verge yet? No worries! You can sign up at theverge.com/subscribe to get ad-free podcasts, plus other perks like exclusive newsletters and unlimited access to everything we publish. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge and your Thursday episode guest host. It’s been a very big news week in AI, and a lot of it had to do with OpenAI, its DevDay in San Francisco this week, and the viral explosion of AI-generated video thanks to the company’s new Sora app. So I brought in Kanjun Qiu, CEO of AI startup Imbue and a close watcher of the industry, to break down what’s really happening, why it’s happening, and the societal implications of it all. Links: All of the updates from OpenAI DevDay 2025 | The Verge OpenAI wasn’t expecting Sora’s copyright drama | The Verge I’ve fallen into Sora’s slippery slop | The Verge Sora 2 users are having fun with Sam Altman’s face | The Verge OpenAI will let developers build apps that work inside ChatGPT | The Verge OpenAI wants ChatGPT to be your future operating system | Wired Sora 2 watermark removers flood the web | 404 Media What the arrival of AI-fabricated video means for us | NYT Recruiters use AI to scan résumés — applicants are trying to trick it | NYT Employers are buried in AI-generated résumés | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I’m Joanna Stern, the senior personal tech columnist at The Wall Street Journal, and this is my final Decoder episode filling in for Nilay while he’s out on parental leave. My guest today: Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe. This is RJ’s third time on the show, and it felt like the perfect follow-up to my conversation last week with Ford CEO Jim Farley. I loved the idea of going straight from Ford to Rivian. And if you listened to the Farley episode, this one flows nicely. RJ and I cover a lot of the same challenges: tariffs, China, EV pricing. Of course, I also asked about CarPlay. Links: A pretty fascinating look under the hood of the Rivan R2 | The Verge Rivian CEO says CarPlay isn’t going to happen | The Verge Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe says too many carmakers are copying Tesla | Decoder Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe isn't scared of the Cybertruck | Decoder Rivian breaks ground on $5 billion Georgia plant | AP Rivian narrows 2025 delivery guidance Q3 as production slips | WSJ Rivian R2 remains on track for $45,000 and 2026 production | Car and Driver Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge and your Thursday episode guest host. Today, I’m talking with David Hershey, who leads the applied AI team at Anthropic. I wanted to have David on because earlier this week, Anthropic released a brand-new AI model called Claude Sonnet 4.5 that’s been making waves. So I wanted to sit down with David, who spends a lot of time testing out what modes like Claude Sonnet 4.5 can and can’t do, to ask him where we are on this promise of AI agents, and also what the path forward looks like as agentic technology progresses. Links: Anthropic releases Claude Sonnet 4.5 in latest bid for AI agents | The Verge ChatGPT’s built-in Buy Now button has arrived | The Verge OpenAI really wants you to start your day with ChatGPT Pulse | The Verge Anthropic’s Claude AI is playing Pokémon | The Verge AI agents are science fiction not yet ready for primetime | The Verge Agents are the future AI companies promise and need | The Verge Amazon is betting on agents to win the AI race | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Joanna Stern, senior personal technology columnist at The Wall Street Journal. I’m the last Monday guest host filling in for Nilay here on Decoder while he’s out on parental leave with his adorable new son, and I’m very excited to be talking today to Ford CEO Jim Farley. I’m a longtime Decoder listener and my favorite episodes are car episodes. I think car CEOs are currently facing some of the most fascinating and complex challenges in both tech and business. So when I was asked to guest host the show I said, “That’s it, car CEOs.” And Farley was at the top of the list. This was a great conversation that covered a lot of ground. I think you’re going to like it. Links: I’ve been driving an EV for a year. I have only one regret. | WSJ Ford reveals breakthrough process for lower priced EVs | The Verge Ford is betting the future on smaller EV batteries | The Verge Ford is doubling down on EVs — the timing is awful | The Verge Ford’s CEO on the essential economy and its untapped potential | Aspen Institute Ford rejigs EV plans after suffering billions in losses | NYT Why Americans can’t buy the world’s best electric car | NYT Ford CEO Jim Farley on building the electric F-150 | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices