Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today I’m talking with Ronan Farrow, one of the biggest stars of investigative reporting working today. He broke the Harvey Weinstein story, among many, many others. Just last week, he and co-author Andrew Marantz published an incredible deep-dive feature in The New Yorker about OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, his trustworthiness, and the rise of OpenAI itself. So Ronan came on the show to discuss the piece, his reporting process, and why he thinks this story and the revelations it contains really matter. Links: Sam Altman may control our future — can he be trusted? | The New Yorker Hey ChatGPT, which one of these is the real Sam Altman? | New York Times Suspect throws molotov cocktail at Sam Altman’s home | Wired The attacks on Sam Altman are a warning for the AI world | The Verge The vibes are off at OpenAI | The Verge Why Sam Altman was booted from OpenAI | The Verge Sam Altman, unconstrained by the truth | Gary Marcus A brief history of Sam Altman's hype | MIT Tech Review Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sarah Personette is the CEO of Puck, a media company that's been around for about five years. Puck hires big star reporters who write newsletters as part of a subscription bundle. Those newsletters are often must-reads in their industries, and those reporters get equity in Puck and a share of the company's revenue. It's a place where the financial incentives of the influencer economy crash right into the rigors of traditional journalism — and as regular Decoder listeners know, I have a lot of questions about how those two things work (or don't) in the modern media landscape. Links: Puck buys Air Mail in deal valued at $16M | The Wrap The man yelling ‘iceberg’ on the Hollywood Titanic | New York Times Sarah Personette joins news startup Puck as CEO | Variety Are we past peak newsletter? | New York Times Two new newsletters bet they’ve got Hollywood covered | LA Times Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, let’s talk about the looming AI monetization cliff, and whether some of the biggest companies in space can become real, profitable businesses before they careen right off it. My guest today is Hayden Field, who’s our senior AI reporter here at The Verge. She’s been keeping close tabs on both Anthropic and OpenAI, and how these two companies, both slate to go public this year, tell us a whole lot about the AI industry in 2026. Links: The vibes are off at OpenAI | The Verge Anthropic essentially bans OpenClaw from Claude | The Verge Why OpenAI killed Sora | The Verge OpenAI just bought TBPN | The Verge National poll shows voters like AI less than ICE | The Verge The spiraling cost of making AI | WSJ OpenAI’s Fidji Simo taking leave amid exec shake-up | Wired OpenAI raises another $122B at $850B valuation | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins. Cisco is one of those big companies that everyone has heard of but most of us don’t have to interact with very much; they’re not really a consumer brand. But without Cisco's actual routers and switches and silicon — and the software to make those things work — there’s no internet, no cloud, and no AI. But a data center is a really unpleasant neighbor to have, and there’s robust opposition to new data center builds all over the country. So I had to start by asking what feels, strangely, like one of the most urgent questions of the moment: Should we build data centers in space? Links: Nvidia launches space computing, rocketing AI Into orbit | Nvidia Nvidia’s AI dominance expands to networking | CRN Amid rising pushback, 2025 data center cancellations surge | Heatmap Billionaires want data centers everywhere, including space | The Verge How Ciena keeps the internet online | Decoder Okta’s CEO is betting big on agent identity | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about the landmark social media addiction trials that just resulted in two major verdicts against Big Tech — one in California against Meta and Google, and another in New Mexico against just Meta. These are complicated cases with some huge repercussions for both how these platforms work and the very nature of speech in America. So we’ve brought on two heavy hitters: my friend Casey Newton, founder and editor of Platformer and co-host of Hard Fork, as well as Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Feiner, who’s been covering these trials since the beginning. Links: Meta & YouTube found negligent in social media addiction trial | The Verge Meta misled users about its products’ safety, jury decides | The Verge Meta’s legal defeat: a victory for kids, or a loss for everyone | The Verge Can you have child safety and Section 230, too? | Platformer The terrible cost of infinite scroll | The New York Times I watched grieving parents stare down Zuckerberg in court | The Verge Section 230 turns 30 as it faces its biggest tests yet | The Verge Congress considers blowing up internet law | The Verge Sen. Rob Wyden: “Why the internet still needs Section 230” | The Verge How America turned against the First Amendment | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Okta CEO Todd McKinnon. Okta is a platform that big companies use to manage security and identity across all the many apps and platforms their employees use. Most of us run into it as login management at work. SaaS companies like Okta are under a lot of pressure in the age of AI, which Todd even said on an earnings call he's "paranoid" about. But you'll also hear Todd say that for Okta specifically, there's also a world of opportunity as the very concept of a digital "identity" has to expand into things that aren't really people. Links: CEO ‘paranoid’ as vibe coders stir SaaSpocalypse fears | The Register $300B evaporated. The SaaSpocalypse has begun | Forbes How AI assistants are moving the security goalposts | Krebs on Security What everyone’s missing about AI and development | CRN Agents run amok: Identity lessons from Moltbook’s experiment | Okta Breakup of IBM is Antitrust goal (1972) | New York Times Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about the major antitrust lawsuit against Ticketmaster parent company Live Nation, and what it might mean for antitrust and competition law in general now that the Trump DOJ has decided to settle its part of the case — even as several states including California, New York, and Texas carry on. To break it all down, I’m joined by Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Feiner. Lauren’s our resident court expert, and she’s been chronicling this trial from the beginning. Links: States’ anti-monopoly case against Live Nation continues | The Verge The Live Nation trial restarts with a ‘velvet hammer’ | The Verge Live Nation settles government antitrust suit | The Verge The Live Nation settlement has industry insiders baffled | The Verge Listen to Live Nation CEO’s alleged threats to a concert venue | The Verge The threats and bare-knuckle tactics of MAGA’s top antitrust fixer | WSJ The Trump admin just gave Live Nation the gift of a lifetime | NYT How Live Nation allegedly terrorized the concert industry | The Verge The US government is trying to break up Ticketmaster | The Verge (2024) Taylor Swift vs. Ronald Reagan: the Ticketmaster story | Decoder (2023) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Shishir Mehrotra, the CEO of Superhuman, the company formerly known as Grammarly, which is still its flagship product. Back in August, Grammarly shipped a feature called Expert Review, which allowed you to get writing suggestions from AI-cloned “experts,” and recently, reporters at The Verge and other outlets discovered that those experts included me, among many others. No one ever asked permission to use our names this way, and a lot of reporters were outraged by this. To Shishir’s credit, he did not cancel our interview and he came on and stuck it out. This conversation got tense at times, and it’s clear we disagree about how extractive AI feels for people. There’s a lot in this one, and I’m excited to hear what you think. Links: Why I’m suing Grammarly | New York Times Grammarly will stop using identities without permission | The Verge Grammarly to keep using writer identities unless they opt out | The Verge Grammarly turned me into an AI editor and I hate it | Platformer Grammarly is using our identities without permission | The Verge Grammarly is changing its name to Superhuman | The Verge Grammarly wants to become an ‘AI productivity platform’ | The Verge Viacom v. YouTube, 2007 | Electronic Frontier Foundation Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, let’s talk about the big Paramount-Warner Bros. Discovery merger. Right now, Paramount head David Ellison is very much acting like he’s over the finish line after outbidding Netflix, which walked away after what seemed like a done deal. Back in January, I asked Puck’s Julia Alexander to walk me through Netflix’s reasoning, and today I’m digging into Paramount’s with Rich Greenfield, a media and entertainment analyst and cofounder of research firm LightShed Partners. There’s a lot going on here, including the biggest question I’ve had throughout this entire saga: why would anyone want to buy Warner, which has basically killed every acquirer it’s had for the last quarter century? Links: David Ellison’s plan to compete with Netflix: Paramount+HBO | Rich Greenfield The worst acquisition in history, again | Prof G Media David Zaslav gets the last laugh | THR Warner Bros. Discovery agrees to Paramount merger | The Verge Tech, TV, Movies & News: Ellisons on brink of colossal empire | NYT Pete Hegseth says ‘the sooner David Ellison’ buys CNN, ‘the better’ | NYT Warner Bros CEO to pocket $887 million from Paramount deal | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jim Lanzone is the CEO of Yahoo. It's basically impossible to sum up Yahoo's story over the last 25 years, but the short version is that once upon a time, Yahoo paid Google to run the search box on its website, and everything immediately went sideways. Jim calls it Yahoo's original sin. But after a long series of mergers, spinouts, and a hot, weird minute as part of Verizon Yahoo is once again an independent, privately held company — and it's growing. Yahoo Sports, Finance, and email (yes, really) are all getting bigger. But can Yahoo really take market share from Google? And with so much of both sports and finance turning into straight up gambling, does Jim have any red lines he won’t cross with two of the biggest apps on the internet? Links: Yahoo sells Engadget to Static Media | The Verge Yahoo sells TechCrunch to Regent | The Verge Yahoo Finance launches crypto partnership with Coinbase | Yahoo Yahoo Scout looks like more web-friendly AI search | The Verge Yahoo Finance launches crypto deal with Polymarket | Yahoo Finance Yahoo resurrects Artifact inside AI-powered news app | The Verge Yahoo Mail adds more AI to simplify desktop email | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Mike Masnick, the founder and CEO of Techdirt, the excellent and long-running tech policy blog. Mike has been writing about government overreach, privacy in the digital age, and other related topics for decades now, and he’s an expert on how the internet and the surveillance state have grown in interconnected ways over the past two decades. I wanted to have Mike on the show to discuss the messy, fast-moving situation at Anthropic, the maker of Claude that now finds itself in a very ugly legal battle with the Pentagon. Instead of covering the daily drama, I wanted to dig in specifically on Anthropic's surveillance red line, and the important history and context around digital privacy in the U.S. that shapes how we should think about this going forward. Links: AI bros wanted Trump — now they learn what happens when you tell him no | Techdirt OpenAI’s ‘red lines’ are written in the NSA’s dictionary | Techdirt Anthropic is suing the Department of Defense | The Verge Anthropic launches new think tank amid Pentagon fight | The Verge How OpenAI caved to the Pentagon on AI surveillance | The Verge Inside the backlash to the AI war machine | Platformer The Pentagon is violating Anthropic's First Amendment rights | FIRE Why the Pentagon wants to destroy Anthropic | Ezra Klein / NYT Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hasbro might be a toy company, but CEO Chris Cocks has spent the last several years pushing it more and more into the digital media, gaming, and collectibles space. That makes sense, since adults have money and kids don't. All those IP and licensing deals are working out for Hasbro so far. But Hasbro is also facing a lot of risk from instability: in trade and tariffs, in politics and culture, and in the video game market, which seems to be in a more or less permanent state of crisis. Links: Chris Cocks on Decoder (2023) | The Verge Hasbro just made a massive ‘Harry Potter’ Announcement | Parade Businesses push for tariff refunds as Trump aides hint at fight | New York Times We’re finally seeing more of Hasbro’s forgotten space game | PC Gamer Xbox in is danger. Will Microsoft save it, or kill it? | The Verge OpenAI’s billion-dollar deal puts Mickey Mouse in Sora | The Verge A comprehensive timeline of JK Rowling’s descent into transphobia | Them Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today let’s talk about prediction markets, which continue to insert themselves into the news cycle and the news in increasingly weird, unsettling, and potentially illegal ways. My guest today is Liz Lopatto, a senior reporter at The Verge who owns what we cheerfully call the chaos beat. Liz has been writing a lot about prediction markets lately and especially why they all seem so intent on being perceived as sources of news — a position which directly incentivizes insider trading. That in turn creates a long list of very predictable problems. Links: Prediction markets want to eat the news | The Verge How anonymous bettors cashed In on the Iran strike | NYT With Iran, Kalshi & Polymarket Bet on the Depravity Economy | 404 Media Polymarket pulls bet on nuclear detonation in 2026 | 404 Media Polymarket defends betting on war as ‘invaluable’ | The Verge Someone made a ton of money betting on Maduro’s capture | The Verge Are prediction markets gambling? Robinhood CEO bets no | Decoder Prediction markets roll out war bets beyond Washington’s reach | Bloomberg Polymarket partners with Substack for some reason | The Verge It’s MAGA v Broligarch in the battle over prediction markets | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Zillow CEO Jeremy Wacksman. Zillow is one of those apps that really exemplifies what you might call the smartphone era of software: the company built a great mobile app for looking at real estate listings, and it turned into not just entertainment for so many of us, but what has become a vertically-integrated platform for buying, selling, and renting real estate. Jeremy’s argument is that the future of Zillow looks a lot like an end-to-end business platform for real estate agents, and we spent a lot of time talking about whether a business as local and as relationship driven as real estate can benefit from platform-level scale in the way he’s proposing. Links: Zillow’s new AI staging feature is impressively unimpressive | The Verge Zillow’s upgraded AI search will show you more homes you can’t afford | The Verge Zillow adds DMs so you can chat about homes you’ll never buy | The Verge FTC accuses Zillow of paying $100 million to ‘dismantle’ Redfin | The Verge Housing is frozen. Wacksman knows you’re still scrolling | NYT Wacksman on the US housing market | Bloomberg Talks Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about the future of Xbox. Phil Spencer, a two-time Decoder guest who’s led Xbox for more than a decade, resigned. But in a shocking twist, his deputy long-assumed successor Sarah Bond is also out too, and the Xbox division is now in the hands of an Asha Sharma, one of Microsoft’s AI executives with no prior game industry experience. There is no better person to talk to about all of this than Tom Warren, senior editor here at The Verge and author of the excellent Notepad newsletter. Tom is actually on parental leave right now, but Microsoft has a longstanding habit of disrupting his well-earned time off. So, Tom was gracious enough to come on the show after publishing a major scoop about what went down at Xbox this past week. Links: Inside Microsoft’s big Xbox leadership shake-up | The Verge Billions of dollars later and still nobody knows what an Xbox is | The Verge Xbox chief Phil Spencer is leaving Microsoft | The Verge Read Xbox chief Phil Spencer’s memo about leaving Microsoft | The Verge Here’s what Xbox is working on for 2026 | The Verge AMD hints Microsoft could launch its next-gen Xbox in 2027 | The Verge The next Xbox is going to be very different | The Verge Xbox co-founder believes it’s being ‘sunsetted’ in favor of AI | VGC Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Hank Green, a longtime friend of Decoder and the co-founder and now former owner of Complexly, an online education company he started with his brother John in 2012. I say former owner because Hank and John have just converted Complexly into a nonprofit and given up their ownership of the company in the process. That’s some of the purest Decoder bait that ever was, because it’s all about how you structure a company and how you make decisions about changing that structure. So of course I had to bring Hank back on to talk all about it. Links: Greens’ studio becomes nonprofit as they aim to make ‘trustworthy content’ | AP Hank Green makes Nilay Patel explain why websites have a future | Decoder (2024) Why Hank Green can’t quit YouTube for TikTok | Decoder (2022) Hank Green and Sam Reich on running content companies | Decoder Hank Green and Sal Khan on AI in educational video | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we're talking about the war for AI talent. Right now, the hottest job market on the planet is for AI researchers. And the vast majority of these people are concentrated into a small number of hugely valuable, extremely fast-growing companies in the San Francisco Bay Area, most of which are now paying some of the highest salaries in the history of tech to poach from one another. We’ve been dying to really dig in and try to unpack what's going on with all these talent moves in AI. So we brought on Verge senior AI reporter Hayden Field, who's been covering the revolving door of the AI industry really closely and also the broader culture that's motivating workers to jump ship. Links: What’s behind the mass exodus at xAI? | The Verge OpenClaw founder Peter Steinberger is joining OpenAI | The Verge Two more xAI co-founders leave after the SpaceX merger | The Verge AI safety leader says 'world is in peril' and quits to study poetry | BBC OpenAI is making the mistakes Facebook made. I quit. | NYT Anthropic’s chief on AI: ‘We don’t know if the models are conscious’ | NYT Meet the one woman Anthropic trusts to teach AI morals | WSJ OpenAI plans fourth-quarter IPO in race to beat Anthropic to market | WSJ Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we're talking about the camera company Ring, lost dogs, and the surveillance state. Since it aired for a massive audience at the Super Bowl, Ring’s Search Party commercial has become a lightning rod for controversy. It’s easy to see how the same technology that can find lost dogs can be used to find people, and then used to invade our privacy in all kinds of uncomfortable ways, by cops and regular people alike. Although Ring has since canceled its partnership with controversial surveillance company Flock, the company is now facing hard questions about its plans to use AI to promote safer neighborhoods, and how that intersects with its ongoing relationship with law enforcement. Links: Ring cancels partnership with Flock after surveillance backlash | The Verge Ring’s lost dog ad sparks backlash amid fears of surveillance | The Verge Ring says it’s not giving ICE access to its cameras | The Verge How police recovered Nancy Guthrie’s Nest Doorbell footage | The Verge Ring’s Jamie Siminoff thinks AI can reduce crime | Decoder Ring CEO says cameras can almost ‘zero out crime’ within 12 months | The Verge ICE taps into nationwide AI camera network, data shows | 404 Media ICE, Secret Service had access to Flock's camera network | 404 Media Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Bridget McCormack, former chief justice for the Michigan Supreme Court and now president and CEO of the American Arbitration Association. For the past several years, Bridget and her team have been developing an AI-assisted arbitration platform called the AI Arbitrator. So I sat down with her to talk about how the tool works, the pros and cons of automating parts of the arbitration process, and the bigger picture questions around institutional trust, justice, and the future of law. Links: All rise for JudgeGPT | The Verge Why do lawyers keep using ChatGPT? | The Verge Judge berates AI entrepreneur for using a generated ‘lawyer’ | The Verge Judge slams lawyers for ‘bogus AI-generated research’ | The Verge LexisNexis CEO says the AI law era is already here | Decoder ChatGPT can be a disaster for lawyers — Robin AI wants to fix that | Decoder Considerations In building guardrails for AI use In arbitration | Law360 The AI Arbitrator: What it is, what it isn’t, and where it’s going | Law360 Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Chris Jereza and Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Siemens is one of those absolutely giant, extremely important, fairly opaque companies we love to dig into on Decoder. At a very basic, reductive level, Siemens makes the hardware and software that let other companies run and automate their stuff. We spent a lot of time talking about what happens to jobs when Siemens automates everything — and what happens to a company like Siemens when the free trade era we’re used to gets turned on its head. Links: Siemens Energy CEO attends Trump meeting at Davos | Reuters PepsiCo, Siemens, Nvidia announce digital twin collaboration | PepsiCo Siemens spins off Healthineers majority stake | Reuters Siemens USA to train 200,000 electricians by 2030 | Siemens Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices