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The Interop

Technology Podcasts

Technical deep dives with the entrepreneurs and developers building the decentralized economics networks which make up the Interchain. The Interop is hosted by crypto investor and podcaster @seb3point0.


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Technical deep dives with the entrepreneurs and developers building the decentralized economics networks which make up the Interchain. The Interop is hosted by crypto investor and podcaster @seb3point0.




SLINKY ORACLE with Maghnus Mareneck of Skip

Skip Protocol helps sovereign blockchain protocols supercharge their blockspace to improve user experience, enhance interoperability, and enrich network stakeholders. The protocol has recently unveiled Slinky, an “Oracle” aggregator designed for perpetual markets and DeFi as a whole. TOPICS 00:02:10 - Major Developments at Skip 00:04:40 - The slinky announcement 00:14:15 - Use cases for Slinky 00:21:10 - The architecture and how validators are coordinating 00:25:11 - Levana Attack in relation to the architecture 00:27:14 - Pricing and Slashing 00:35:18 - Is there a compromise? 00:38:16 - What vulnerabilities and attacks can Slinky prevent 00:45:15 - The opportunity cost of using Skip 00:48:36 - How it fits in the modular stack 00:53:51 - Slinky:The Rolls Royce of Oracles 00:59:18 - Slinky's origin and potential customers 01:03:02 - Conclusion LINKS GitHub - Skip-mev How Slinky can prevent Oracle Manipulation Attacks Slinky: Twitter Announcement GUESTS Maghnus on Twitter Skip's Website SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture The Interop


CELESTIA LIQUID STAKING with Fabo & Jay B of Milky Way

MilkyWay is a liquid staking solution for the Celestia ecosystem, initially starting its deployment and operation on Osmosis. When individuals liquid stake their TIA coins through MilkyWay, they obtain an on-chain representation of their TIA staking position, termed as milkTIA. This allows Celestia token holders to access liquidity for their staked assets, facilitating trading or their utilization as collateral in different DeFi products. TOPICS 00:06:27 - When did the protocol launch? 00:07:43 - Growth and support from the community 00:08:25 - Liquid staking 00:10:09 - What is liquid staking evolving into 00:12:25 - What is Milky Way? 00:14:38 - Where can people use their MilkTIA 00:17:23 - The design 00:26:13 - The agent and how it interacts with the multisig 00:31:59 - Fudding the multisig 00:34:22 - Purpose of the contract 00:38:23 - How the validators are chosen 00:47:56 - Milky Way's position in the liquid staking space 00:51:54 - Endgame for Milky Way in the Celestia ecosystem 00:55:38 - The roadmap LINKS Milky Way AuthZ Delegated Multisig GUESTS JayB on LinkedIn Fabo on Twitter SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture The Interop


BUILD WHATEVER WHEREVER with Omer Mishael of Lava Network

Lava is a modular data network for scaling access to any blockchain. The network can flexibly support any RPC and API. Lava works with rollups and blockchains to consolidate and improve their node infrastructure. Providers are rewarded for their quality of service, so your users can fetch data and send transactions with speed, data integrity and uptime. Lava helps developers build web3-native apps on any chain. TOPICS 00:00:00 Introduction 00:05:48 Lava's USP 00:10:22 Uber for blockchain data 00:13:39 RPC and Relayers 00:23:26 Lava's paradigm and how it works 00:31:47 How does the matching happen? 00:39:48 Clustering mechanism 00:42:29 Participants in Lava functionality 00:51:55 Modular Stack - Lava's contribution 00:56:10 Light Clients 01:01:04 Road to mainnet LINKS Lava on Twitter GUESTS Omer Mishael on Linkedin ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture The Interop


MODULAR MOVE ROLLUPS with Rushi Manche of Movement Labs

Movement Labs is a modular framework to build and deploy Move-based infrastructure, applications, and blockchains in any distributed environment. They offer an open network for creators to build and grow. The team is building a suite of products and services that empower non-Move protocols to leverage the power of the Move Programming Language without writing a single lineof Move code. TOPICS 00:00:00 Introduction 00:04:58 EVM is going to zero 00:12:33 Overview of Movement 00:16:25 M2: Roll up framework 00:18:27 Decision tree for a developer 00:20:51 Noble and Union Partnership 00:25:41 Fractal module: Backwards Compatibility 00:28:50 Risky Opcodes in Ethereum 00:31:50 Native USDC 00:33:36 How move benefits IBC 00:35:12 Future of Cosmos 00:40:08 Long term compatibility between VMs 00:42:55 Movement Labs: Parthenon Roadmap 00:44:35 Decentralised Share Sequencer 00:47:24 Validators for M1 00:48:30 Token and Air Drop? 00:48:59 Community program 00:51:33 ETF Approval LINKS M2 Announcement Movement + Noble + Union Partnership Movement Roadmap Ethereum Opcodes GUESTS Rushi Manche on Twitter SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture on Twitter The Interop on Twitter


LEVANA RELAUNCH with Jonathan Caras of Levana

Levana is a decentralized exchange protocol designed to enable leveraged positions for any asset. Levana enables permission-less, censorship-resistant Capital efficient markets. Levana is the only platform with zero insolvency risk, so your PnL is always safe. Currently market launches and configuration is permissioned, but Levana's goal is to create a permissionless protocol which enables anyone to be able to launch a leveraged market for any asset. TOPICS 00:00:00 Introduction 00:01:55 The ETF Approval 00:06:28 Ben Franklin with laser eyes 00:12:30 The token launch 00:24:23 Attack timeline 00:28:30 Details of the attack 00:29:04 Targeted pools 00:34:09 Oracle Exploitation & how it works 00:42:16 Other oracle solutions 00:46:55 Learnings from the attack 00:49:50 Mitigation and relaunch 00:57:42 Thoughts on adding LVN tokens & Staking 01:00:22 Positive outlook for Levana LINKS Initial Security Alert Levana exploit postmortem Delta price attack explained Jacob Gabikian post on p2p storm GUESTS Jonathan on Twitter Levana on Twitter SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture The Interop


Cosmos in 2024 LIVESTREAM with Cryptocito, Sam Hart, Farmer and Stephen TCG

Consider staking with Interop Ventures ------------------------------------ TOPICS GUESTS ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:



Consider staking with Interop Ventures XION is the first L1 purpose built for mass consumer adoption through its Generalized Abstraction layer. It is a paradigm shift, paving the way for mainstream adoption of Web3 by enabling seamless user experiences for everyday users through protocol-level implementations. It focuses on accounts, signatures, payments, interoperability, devices, and pricing. TOPICS 00:00:00 Introduction 00:02:09 Burnt Banksy 00:05:12 Early NFT Projects 00:07:34 Nobody gives a shit about crypto 00:12:06 What is XION 00:13:30 XION in comparison to other protocols 00:15:51 Generalized Abstraction 00:18:37 Integration with other chains 00:21:19 Advantage of integrating with XION 00:23:28 Meta accounts and how it works 00:27:50 Abstraction 2.0 do we need a wallet anymore? 00:30:59 Onboarding legacy accounts 00:38:15 Too much power to Apple and Google 00:40:20 Parameterised Fee Layer 00:47:13 The Mint module 00:54:53 Why XION chose Cosmos LINKS XION Whitepaper: GUESTS Burnt Banksy: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


ATOM ALIGNMENT with Noam Cohen of Binary Builders

Binary Builders is a leading group of builders in the Interchain ecosystem providing a range of services with the goal to help build the future of Web3. They serve as the primary maintainer of the Cosmos SDK. Binary Builders authored the Atom Alignment thesis posted to the Cosmos Hub Forum which focuses on AEZ Growth, financial alignment w/ consumer chains, and increasing decentralization of the Hub's voting power. TOPICS 00:00:00 Introduction 00:05:20 What is Binary Builders? 00:08:54 Interchain Builders Program 00:11:28 Business development in Cosmos 00:16:52 Areas of research 00:21:51 Atom Alignment - 3 modules 00:26:02 Growing Atom & AEZ 00:30:15 KPI's to look for 00:33:41 Details of the treasury 00:39:02 Should all proposals go through governance? 00:45:54 Voting on Telegram - IBC Bot 00:48:01 Drip Module - How it works 00:51:32 Building on Cosmos SDK vs Cosmwasm 00:56:13 The Hub, AEZ & the future 01:00:11 Chain features & Atom as money 01:00:58 The Hub's most valuable attribute 01:02:26 Thoughts on Sunny's take? 01:07:56 Next steps with alignment treasury LINKS Binary Builders GUESTS Creators & Guests Noam CohenSebastien Couture


ATOM IS MONEY with Sunny Aggarwal of Osmosis

Consider staking with Interop Ventures Osmosis is an Interchain DEX that lets you swap, earn, and build on the leading decentralized Cosmos exchange. Building Interchain-native apps and smart contracts, as well as analyzing assets and liquidity, are all made possible by Osmosis's tools. ------------------------------------ TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:02:38 The Mars-Neutron merger 00:12:10 Sunny’s take on Mars leaving Osmosis 00:17:01 Competition & stealing liquidity 00:21:33 Osmosis and Umee’s merger 00:23:05 Appchains merging & becoming rollups 00:25:03 Proposal #858 & AEZ 00:33:27 Community’s reaction to the proposal 00:34:40 Atom is money 00:44:46 What’s the vision & the plan? 00:50:18 Views on Atom1 & LSDs 00:57:07 Osmosis 2.0 - CL hooks & smart accounts 01:04:48 Exciting Osmosis applications LINKS Osmosis: Proposal #858: GUESTS Sunny on Twitter: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


BUILD WHATEVER with Nick White of Celestia

Consider staking with Interop Ventures Celestia is a modular data availability (DA) network that securely scales with the number of users, making it easy for anyone to launch their own blockchain without having their own validator set. Celestia recently launched on Mainnet, going from white paper to protocol. Many exciting applications are being built with Celestia and new primitives are being discovered in the realm of Data availability sampling (DAS), Light nodes, DA narratives and more. ------------------------------------ TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:38 Celestia's Launch: white-paper to protocol 00:03:35 Crypto community's reaction to the launch 00:07:39 Will app-chains supplement security with Celestia? 00:11:23 What's the deal with "build whatever"? 00:16:06 Light node meme 00:28:03 The two other nodes that exist in Celestia 00:31:55 Name spaces - what are they? 00:35:49 Ethereum x Celestia - Blobstream 00:41:32 Can Existing L2's leverage this DA? 00:49:49 Future of modular security 00:59:00 The DA narrative with relation to security 01:04:28 Exciting things being built on Celestia 01:10:53 The modular era & sovereign rollups LINKS Celestia: Introducing Blobstream: GUESTS Nick on Twitter: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


BUILDING THE AEZ with Youssef Amrani of AADAO

Consider staking with Interop Ventures Atom Accelerator DAO (AADAO) is a grant focused DAO for the Cosmos Hub, funded by the Hub. AADAO currently focuses on ecosystem initiatives and public goods with the goal of aligning the ecosystem and driving value for ATOM. AADAO has been around for 9 months and been giving grants for 6 months. AADAO is also actively working towards wrapping the DAO in a legal structure in order to have a cohesive onchain and offchain existence. ------------------------------------ TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:28 Youssef's background 00:05:30 Atom 2.0 whitepaper and lessons learned 00:14:04 What is AADAO? 00:18:41 Mandate and funding of AADAO 00:22:23 AADAO's objectives and accomplishments 00:25:25 AADAO's grants 00:39:19 Research areas of AADAO + outcomes 00:50:05 Prop 848 00:54:40 Is the Cosmos Hub overpaying for security? 01:03:47 Should the ICF be funding AADAO? 01:08:55 Hot take - will ATOM be a top 5 chain? LINKS Website: Twitter: 2024 Funding Proposal for AADAO: Atom Accelerator 2023 Impact Report: Grants issued by AADAO: GUESTS Youssef Amrani, Co-Founder: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


ETHEREUM IBC HUB with Bo Du of Polymer

Consider staking with Interop Ventures This episode is all about Polymer's shift to the OP stack. Polymer just announced they will transition to operate as a rollup leveraging the OP stack, and build Ethereum's interoperability hub. Polymer will no longer build a Cosmos app-chain secured by Cosmos validators. Polymer will use Ethereum for security, and the Eigen Layer for for data availability. ------------------------------------ TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:38 Polymer's IBC Summit 00:04:43 Polymer's shift to Ethereum 00:08:10 High level vision of Polymer 00:11:58 Connecting EVM chains to IBC 00:17:30 Futures contract and perpetuals 00:16:55 OP stack + Polymer 00:21:25 How Polymer's rollup will implement IBC 00:27:34 Bringing IBC to Ethereum 00:29:50 Challenges of implementing IBC + fraud proof layer 00:34:33 Cosmos Hub running Ethereum clients? 00:37:37 Multihop channel IBC 00:40:03 Benefit of bringing Polymer to ETH as a rollup 00:46:28 Polymer using Ethereum for security and Eigen for DA 00:48:05 Polymer's use of OP 00:53:42 Monomer SDK 01:00:11 Go to market strategy 01:01:52 Merging Ethereum and Cosmos 01:04:52 Road to mainnet LINKS Website: Twitter: Blog: Bo's Talk at Nebular Summit: GUESTS Bo Du, Technical Lead: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


DYDX V4 MAINNET with Charles d'Haussy of dYdX

Consider staking with Interop Ventures In 2017 dYdX was launched as a decentralized exchange protocol. Fast forward to 2023 and dYdX has reached over 1T in total trading volume and commands a TVL of over $300m. Just last month dYdX released dYdX V4 which is a standalone open-source blockchain built on the Cosmos SDK. With dYdX V4 the product development and governance is in the hands of the respective subDAOs, validators, dYdX stakers, and community members contributing to its future development. This was originally recorded for the Epicenter podcast ------------------------------------ TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:02:40 Charles Background 00:05:03 How did Charles join dYdX Foundation as CEO? 00:06:45 Decision making process for moving dYdX to its own chain 00:13:06 Is it an issue that the dYdX Cosmos chain isn't EVM compatible? 00:17:30 Futures contract and perpetuals 00:20:30 Permissionless markets 00:31:10 Can DeFi compete with CEXs? 00:38:04 Current state of dYdX post launch 00:41:15 Validator voting challenges 00:44:52 Challenges of dYdX's decentralization 00:48:41 Different entities that govern dYdX 00:52:14 MEV in dYdX? 00:54:44 Charles' opinion on MEV in dYdX 00:57:10 Working with the Cosmos ecosystem 01:01:40 Astropolis and Charles' vision for the future 01:06:45 Does Urbit tie into dYdX? 01:08:40 AI's agents role in crypto LINKS Website: dYdX Exchange: dYdX Foundation Twitter: Charles' Talk at Cosmoverse: GUESTS Charles d'Haussy, CEO: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


LIQUIDITY ROUTER with Fig of Squid

Consider staking with Interop Ventures ------------------------------------ Squid was built out of the need to communicate with multiple blockchains when there is not just one dominant chain. Squid is the router for moving assets across different chains, utilizing Axelar as the underlying layer. Squid does the work of figuring out the best path and rates for swapping assets across ecosystems, and simplifies this into a one-click process for the user. Squid has packaged swaps, bridges, and message transfer into one router. TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:55 Fig's background 00:06:18 What is Squid? 00:11:11 Pain points for developers Squid is solving 00:13:20 Squid's relationship to Axelar 00:17:50 Message passing layer 00:20:30 Gas management in Axelar 00:22:40 Atomicity guarantees between chains 00:25:55 Will intents lead to everything going off-chain? 00:33:20 User considerations using Axelar over other interoperable solutions 00:41:56 Longterm view of $AXL and $USDC 00:45:20 Squid integration with Noble and dYdX 00:48:07 Bridge asset fungibility and liquidity fragmentation 00:54:02 ETH stake used to secure Cosmos chains? 00:55:51 What would a Squid token be used for? 00:57:55 Squid business model LINKS Website: Squid dApp: Squid Twitter: GUESTS Fig, Co-Founder: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


COSMOS IBC EVERYWERE with Karel Kaiser of Union

Consider staking with Interop Ventures ------------------------------------ Union builds Zero Knowledge infrastructure for interoperability that will enable permissionless and trust minimized message passing between the Interchain and Ethereum. Union is based on consensus verification and has no dependencies on trusted third parties, oracles, multi-signatures, or MPC. Union is the first messaging protocol with an IBC connection between Ethereum and their testnet. TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:45 Karel's background 00:06:25 Karel's take on Cosmos ecosystem 00:08:08 Union product & mission 00:10:45 Verifying the state between chains 00:15:30 Consumer hardware generated proofs 00:17:25 Union architecture 00:21:30 Comet BLS 00:27:30 What are storage/state proofs? 00:29:15 How does BLS enable more validators? 00:32:49 Relayer architecture - Galois and Voyager 00:36:46 Realyers for sending/receiving messages cross-chain 00:42:38 Why Unions doesn't use governance proposals to run chains 00:46:30 Need for packet forward middleware? 00:49:48 Union & Celestia 00:53:04 Leveraging Interchain security across Ethereum 00:57:50 Union enables BTC transfers into IBC 01:02:46 Union roadmap LINKS Website: Blog: Unioned FAQ: Union Twitter: GUESTS Karel Kaiser, CEO: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


MODULAR BASE LAYER with Anurag Arjun of Avail

Consider staking with Interop Ventures ------------------------------------ Avail is a modular blockchain built to scale other blockchains, spun out of Polygon. It provides a fast, secure data and consensus layer for launching a sustainable blockchain. Avail is part of a growing modular ecosystem in the ongoing effort to increase data availability for blockchains. Avail's final incentivized testnet is starting in the end of October with final audits by the end of the year, and mainnet launch expected in 2024. TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:13 Introduction to Anurag 00:04:18 Starting Avail while at Polygon 00:07:19 Tradeoffs when choosing security layers 00:16:15 Longterm viability of EVM Rollups 00:24:00 Avail's stack 00:29:22 Avails vs Celestia 00:40:10 Data Availability Sampling 00:49:45 Tradeoffs in increasing block size 00:54:24 Economics of Avail 01:04:10 Avail roadmap, milestones, and challenges LINKS Website: Blog: Blogpost on data availability layer: Avail Twitter: GUESTS Anurag Arjun, Founder: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:



Consider staking with Interop Ventures ------------------------------------ Hyperlane is an interoperability protocol enabling permissionless connectivity between blockchains. Hyperlane is unique in that it provides a modular framework allowing developers to build interoperability solutions that fit the needs of their applications. Their recent v3 upgrade solves developer pain points, including the release of Hooks, which allows you to customize message routing. TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:04:20 Jon’s interest in interoperability 00:09:00 How are interoperability protocols competing? 00:14:05 What are modular blockchains? 00:19:15 Making modularity accessible and secure 00:22:55 Hot take: Decentralized shared sequencers are not real 00:29:22 Tradeoffs for optimizing Hyperlane 00:34:02 Hyperlane’s architecture 00:44:45 Difference between IBC and Hyperlane 00:48:10 Application layer interoperability 00:50:15 Role of validators and relayers 00:54:50 Security modules 00:56:25 Gas module 01:00:48 What’s new in Hyperlane V3 01:03:50 Who’s building on Hyperlane? 01:07:10 Who should be using Hyperlane? LINKS Hyperlane: Hyperlane FAQs: Hyperlane Explorer: GUESTS Jon Kol, CEO: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


DIVERSIFIED YIELDS with Valentin Pletnev of Quasar

Consider staking with Interop Ventures ------------------------------------ This week I sat down with Valentin Pletnev, Founder of Quasar Finance, an Interchain yield aggregator. We discuss Quasar's concentrated liquidity and staking vaults, how Quasar works with Osmosis, vault creators that provide strategies, the tech under the hood of their product, and Cosmos DeFi. We also hear Valentin's take on why he thinks the growing amount of Cosmos chains is a bearish direction for the ecosystem. TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:04:15 Valentin's Background 00:07:53 Deploying Capital on Asset Management Platforms vs. Protocols 00:14:04 Liquidity Concentration and Community Governance 00:18:35 Early Yield Aggregation Products 00:22:46 Quasar and Sommelier Differences 00:27:52 How Quasar Vaults Work 00:37:35 Growing Amount of Cosmos Chains Makes Valentin Bearish 00:41:50 Osmosis Merging with the Cosmos Hub? 00:44:29 Flow of Transactions on Quasar 00:50:30 How Do Vault Creators Interact with Quasar? 00:55:09 How DLL Interacts with Quasar 00:58:10 Quasar Expansion Plans 01:02:23 User Risks for Using Quasar LINKS Quasar Finance: CL Vault Launch: Quasar Rundown: Roadmap: GUEST Valentin Pletnev: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


PERPETUAL SWAPS with Jonathan Caras of Levana

Consider staking with Interop Ventures ------------------------------------ This week I sat down with Jonathan Caras, Head of Communications for Levana Protocol, a perpetual swap protocol deployed in the Cosmos ecosystem. We discuss the launch and future of Levana and dissected the ins-and-outs of DeFi yield, perpetual swap fees, and user strategies deployed on Levana. We also break down aspects of Levana's white paper, and discuss Jonathan's take on how the appchain thesis has failed. TOPICS 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:20 Jonathan's background 00:05:48 Best Non-Finance User Products 00:12:15 Why has the Appchain Thesis Failed? 00:17:16 Sovereignty as an Appchain 00:24:00 Levana Background and Deployment 00:26:38 What is Real Yield? 00:31:52 What is a Perpetual Swap? 00:38:50 Perpetual Swap Fees 00:44:44 Levana Users, Use Cases, & Strategies 00:52:00 How is Levana well-funded? 00:59:11 Insolvency Protection & Mark Price 01:03:01 Future of Levana LINKS Levana: Levana Roadmap: GUEST Jonathan Caras: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop:


THE STAKING ECONOMY with Brian Crain of Chorus One & ICF

Consider staking with Interop Ventures Brian Crain of Chorus One talks about his role in the Cosmos ecosystem as an early team member at Tendermint and his work structuring the ATOM token sale. He also discusses the staking economy, interoperability, and liquid staking, reflecting on the centralization-decentralization tension in these areas. He also talks about the Interchain Foundation's (ICF) role and how the organization can better steward the broader Interchain ecosystem. Brian Crain is CEO of Chorus One, President of the Interchain Foundation Council, and Host of the Epicenter podcast. ------------------------------------ LINKS - Unbundling PBS: Towards protocol-enforced proposer commitments (PEPC): - MEV Matters: Decoding Chorus One’s winning MEV strategy: - Obsidian: - Building a Second Brain: GUESTS Brian Crain: ------------------------------------ SOCIAL MEDIA Sebastien Couture: The Interop: