The Billboard Insider Podcast

On today's Billboard Insider podcast, OAAA President and CEO Anna Bager highlights the out of home stories to watch in 2024 and what brands are saying about out of home. What are some important stories to watch in 2024 2024 is an election year that's going to be huge and will be very interesting to follow. It's not only a presidential election year in the US, it's an election year globally. Next year over half of the world's population will be voting which means that messaging is going to be incredibly important. It's a huge opportunity for our industry especially I think in the US as...signage that we can put out there for the elections will be incredibly important....It's an Olympic year next year. The Olympics typically drive a lot more ad dollars so that's something for us to watch... OAAA President Anna Bager What brands and agencies are saying about out of home. They still feel that our medium is a little hard to understand...we talk about airports, we talk about place-based, we talk about roadside, we talk about transit. We're all out of home...there's no need to increase fragmentation - to make ourselves look more complicated. We need to make ourselves look more simpler and go to market with a very simple crisp message and that's something we hear from brands a lot...We are making ourselves a little hard to understand and we're not talking maybe enough about what we can do for them but rather who we are... I think that something else that stands out is - lead with creativity... we have some incredible creative tools and canvases in our industry and...brands think that we should push more... ...More brands want to buy out of home programmatically...programmatic is on the rise and if that's how brands and agencies want to buy us we should make sure that we that we're up for that... Measurement is still a very big factor. How do we simplify our measurement? What are the metrics that matter and how do we bring those forward to brands? How do we make them feel that our the medium is not just measurable but also comparable to other platforms they're buying... MRC accreditation that will be happening...probably early March of this year so in about a month from when this is being recorded...that's a good first step...but you know we still have a lot of work to do. The April 2024 out of home conference We're going to be in an absolutely amazing place beautiful resort in Carlsbad outside of San Diego and in the end of April... a nice place to both network learn more about the industry hopefully do a lot of business and relax and have fun...we're in the midst of programming right now we're still very open to new ideas...this year we're going to have more brands than we've ever had...we'll also have a lot more folks from the agency side The OAAA Independent Media Company Advisory Group The independent billboard operators are hugely important part of the OAAA they're a big part of our member base...It's led by Diana Stevenson from Grace Outdoor...it's 20 or some companies that meet fairly regularly and talk about what's happening in the different markets what would they like to see from the OAAA what are concerns, what are things they're excited about, how are the different types of verticals responding to out of home..Just kind of getting together to talk about the market. It's super helpful for us at the OAAA...If there's somebody listening who feels that they really want to be a part of it please ping me and let me know. The members are listed on our website. To receive a free morning newsletter with each day's Billboard insider articles email info@billboardinsider.com with the word "Subscribe" in the title. Our newsletter is free and we don't sell our subscriber list Paid Advertisement

On today's Billboard Insider podcast, out of some sales expert Kevin Gephart answers reader questions on cold calls, sales compensation, finding a job after a layoff and how best to coach out of home sales reps. Some of the highlights. Is cold calling dead? No. If you want to sell sales training in books and seminars, advertise that cold calling is dead and you'll get tons of people that sign up and want to hear what you have to say because we all want cold calling to be dead. Cold calling isn't dead. I don't have any business purpose for calling you is dead...My boss is making me make this call is dead...I don't have any thoughts about your business is dead. So intelligent cold calling is alive and well and it's one of the tools in the toolbox....You've got referrals you've got networking you've got e-mail marketing social media you've got affinity group marketing. Those are all tools but cold calling is the one that really relies on your initiative...My father used to say do something even if it's wrong. So pick up the phone call somebody. Make an intelligent call and have a well-planned, well-targeted message to that person and you'll cut through. What's a good compensation plan for out of home sales reps? Companies want to use straight Commission. Straight Commission is also permission to not sell. You want to create a salary plus bonus based on activity. You want to create a a salary that is 80% of the livable wage in your market area. You need to know what the livable wage is in your market area and you also need to know what are the average incomes of the media people within your marketplace. When you know that then you can develop a compensation plan. Now the other 20% of the compensation plan should be based on achieving KPI's and they're very important: the number of self-generated cold calls, the number of meetings weekly that you have with a qualified client...the number of qualified proposals and then your sales numbers... 20% is bonus based on achieving those KPI's... Should a sales manager call with sales reps. Absolutely, but when you're on a call with a sales Rep do not salvage the call yourself as the sales manager. I've been on sales calls which are going south fast so I dive in and save the call. No sales call is worth the price of sacrificing your sales person's experience and education. They're going to leave that call knowing that they failed. You can coach them on why they failed...They're never again going to make that mistake. Another thing that a sales manager brings is importance. If I own a I own five hardware stores in town and all of a sudden a sales rep is coming out to call on me and they bringing their manager if conveys that I am important. You convey an importance and a just an overall importance that is hard to get any other way so you should absolutely go on sales calls. The best sales managers I know of do it on a regular basis they have a regular rotation and the sales reps know they're going to be taking the manager. It's just a part of the culture. Why it's important to ask out of home sales reps "what's the biggest objection you hear?" Ask your sales reps individually what is the biggest objection they hear. They're going to tell you something that may not be what they hear most often. They will tell you the objection that they have the hardest time dealing with. Give them training and strategies to answer that objection and then you're preparing them for their next sales call. An OOH sales training program for $74.95 per rep! Leading OOH sales organizations have adopted “The Ultimate Out of Home Sales Guide” as a 35+ segment sales training regime: Comprehensive, sequential sales training chapters Designed for regular sales training/meetings in 30+ minutes each Proven, actionable sales strategies and ideas; providing a huge return on training investment No travel cost/minimal sales time lost

On today's Billboard Insider podcast, SignBird founder John James talks about how drones can help you market your out of home company more effectively. John give us an overview of SignBird and what you and your team do. John James, SignBird We capture out of home on camera: drone in the sky; camera mounted on a car; or boots on the ground. SignBird's job is to improve the way out of home is captured on camera. What's new at SignBird over the past year? Last September we were acquired by Outdoorlink. It's been a fantastic transition. We're grown our team. We've added new clients...All SignBird employees are remote or here in Tuscaloosa. Can you take pictures nationwide? We're an Alabama based company...We've been able to recruit some of the nations top drone pilot photographers. 30 states and counting. Someone asked me the other day how many pilots I have in my network...we have hundreds. How can drones help an out of home company? When we take that drone up in the sky we're showing different types of value around a billboard location. We can see the long drive times. We can see the Walmart, the Chic-fil-A, the gas station, the grocery store that a traditional approach shot can't capture. We can see all the commercial and residential development happening around a billboard location...When a media buyer approaches a billboard company they ask for two things when a campaign goes live...an approach shot and a glamour shot. I think we're approaching a time when an additional drone shot is going to be requested by the media buyers... Drone footage of digital billboard filmed by SignBird Not everyone can fly a drone There is a safety issue flying a drone. There is an insurance issue. You've got to be licensed...When you fly a commercial drone you're entering...a new legal hoop... Are there places you can't fly a drone? Absolutely. Any time you go to an airport. If a US president is in a given market you can't put a drone in the sky. We've had that happen several times in Atlanta. What's the key to taking good digital billboard pictures. It's all about controlling the brightness of the screen. The way we combat that is using filters that darken the shot... Advice on photos and videos I have a free guide you can download on our website: 5 Tips To Improve Your Billboard Photos. Invest in good equipment. The iPhone can come a long way but I think there is no substitute for quality equipment...Hire an intern...someone to get good with that camera. You're spending six figures on a structure and LED yet you don't want to spend $500 on a good camera? To receive a free morning newsletter with each day’s Billboard insider articles email info@billboardinsider.com with the word “Subscribe” in the title. Our newsletter is free and we don’t sell our subscriber list. Paid Advertisement

On today's podcast OAAA President and CEO Anna Bager talks about the top stories of 2022, issues to watch in 2023 and new initiatives for independent out of home companies. What are some out of home stories to watch in 2023? Anna Bager, President and CEO, OAAA Keeping an eye on the economy...I have a strong sense that we're going to be fine... Signal loss, cookies going away, changing to IOS 14 and now changes in Android will happen...mobile ID's are going away...this is an issue...You are seeing the results of that signal loss...in particular on the digital side. On the privacy end there is...a likelihood that there will be the start of some attempt to create federal regulation...which will be good because privacy laws today are very different in every state...I think this is a big opportunity for out of home because we are not suffering from some of the same problems that traditional media does...We need to be aware of how we are using data and how we are talking about it so we are not putting ourselves in a bad light. P&G's Mark Pritchard gave a speech where he talked about reaching underserved and underprivledged audiences where they are. People that don't have access to a computer or access to the internet...Out of home is a big part of being able to reach those communities. The category that I'm excited for next year is Pharma...It's a bit tricky with Pharma with all the disclosures but I still think it's a big opportunity for out of home. Accreditation and Measurement That's a huge storyline and a huge step forward...The MRC has leaned in to create better standards for out of home...There will probably be a standard in Q1 of next year...if everything goes to plan...That does not mean that they are creating measurement. They are creating a process that's expected for advertisers and agencies to have faith in our medium...So getting that standard in place is a huge win for the industry...A lot of advertisers don't want to transact unless there's MRC accredited measurement so it opens up a whole new pool of advertising for us...I think we're making huge strides when it comes to measurement...all the exciting work that Geopath has been doing... What's your message to independent out of home companies? We need you. Out of home is about scale, it's about reach and it's about location and we need companies that are everywhere in every little nook and cranny of the country because that's how we're going to be successful. It's about 70% of the spend in out of home. Local is a big part...and independent out of home companies are a big part of this industry. We're your trade association. We want you to be involved. Give us feedback and help us drive the industry forward. There's often a misconception that we're only for the big 3 or the big 5 or big 6. We're not. We're for the whole industry. There's no other trade organization that can do what we do...protecting the industry...maintaining the Highway Beautification Act, lobbying on things that matter to real estate and first amendment issues, infrastructure. We are also very focused on taxation both on a state as well as the federal level...and then obviously privacy is an area that we are increasing our focus on... We've talked about conference and events. It's a nice place to mingle and talk to colleagues and exchange ideas and we want to create more opportunity for independents to do that in the coming year. We are actually putting together an advisory board for independent billboard operators that will help us guide the output that we are putting out for webinars, sales training and research... [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

Today's podcast guest is Jim Johnsen, a managing director at the out of home investment banking firm Johnsen Fretty talks about out of home valuations and the out of home debt and equity markets. Here are the highlights. A healthy out of home transactions market. The market is healthy with lots of buyers and sellers at the moment. On a scale of 1 to 10 it's somewhere between an 8.5 and a 9. Jim Johnsen, Managing Director, Johnsen Fretty Where are billboard cashflow multiples Somewhere between 10-13 times is where we are seeing things go off... An active pool of buyers The pool of buyers is better than I've ever seen it. For example JCDecaux stepped up for its first acquisition in the US...They were in a joint venture with Interstate and Interstate put their half on the market and they ran it through a process and I heard it was a very close competition...Clear Channel has been active as of late. They've been on a long hiatus...it's good to see them back in the market. OUTFRONT has been selectively buying and of course Lamar has always been the perennial acquirer...And beyond that you've got guys like New Tradition with their purchase of Regency and some follow-on transactions that they did with us recently. We closed a deal with Vector recently. Branded Cities is buying. Trailhead, MH, Keystone, McWhorter, Big Outdoor, Link, Adams, Lindmark, Las Vegas Billboards, Orange Barrel, Azalea, Tier One, Creative and a whole host of others. Private equity is interested in out of home but has trouble scaling I can't count a week that we don't get 3-4 calls from private equity firms saying "hey, we've done a white paper on the out of home business...or we bought some Lamar stock and that worked out well so how do we get in in a deeper way." So the interest is really, really, strong. The dilemma for the private equity business is how do they get scale. Getting scale in the out of home business is hard...there's only so many Adams out there...The size of companies drops off pretty quickly. Most of the private equity firms want to write a $50 million check, a $100 million check and upwards...They need a pretty sizable company...We have seen several groups come down market. Instead of requiring $10 million of EBIDTA they are doing $1-2 million of EBIDTA. Lamar I believe Ross Reilly is being groomed to be the next CEO of Lamar. My interactions with him have all been super favorable. He's a business friendly guy. He likes to think outside the box. Smart, affable, well liked... OUTFRONT I love them. From a forward thinking sales and marketing organization I think they get it...they are not selling space...they are selling a product with lots of sex appeal...The MTA product looks phenomenal. I'm in New York city riding subways often...one thing they do right is station domination. Generally they're trying to sell the entire environment to one advertiser at a time and making a gigantic splash... Clear Channel Outdoor They are the Tiffany collection of assets...the asset is good. They've had so many challenges for so long...their capital constraints have been deleterious...when they spun off certain markets in 2018 when you talk to Jim at Ashby Street or some of the Lamar guys who bought the assets they were in shock with how good the assets were and how much lift there was on the assets by applying some more capital and hard work. What about Clear Channel Europe? I'd sell it at whatever the clearing price was, but I'm sure the lenders have something to say about that...my sense is that out of home advertising in other parts of the world is different...it's more agency than asset...it's lower margin...if you're trying to run an out of home company in Europe like you're trying to run an out of home company in the US it's a bit of a mistake... Link Media They're being selective as to what they go after...Scott Lafoy has done a dynamite job...

On today's Billboard Insider podcast we talk with DJ Jennings and John James about OutdoorLink's recent purchase of SignBird. Here are the highlights. DJ Jennings, Chief Revenue Officer, OutdoorLink DJ Jennings on OutdoorLink's history OutdoorLink was created by my father Dwight to service the billboard industry to help operators with the day to day pains they have managing inventory - things like managing lights, making sure their clients are happy with illumination issues, rising utility costs... Billboard Insider: Our out of home plant in Minnesota and Indiana uses your product. It adjusts all our lights automatically based on sunrise and sunset. We don't have to reset timers. It pings our manager every time we have an outage. And we can turn off signs remotely if we have a vacancy so we don't have to pay for utilities. That was why OutdoorLink was started and created. My father was an independent operator for years and years and when he sold his plant he wanted to get back into the business and decided he was going to solve some of the issues he faced every day. Managing digital billboards The SmartLink is basically a smart control device that allows users to customize inputs...From time to time digital billboards have issues. That may be freezing up. The ad copy not displaying properly. A security threat. A board hack. It gives you a quick failsafe method of rebooting or shutting down the face without having to roll a truck. Why OutdoorLink bought SignBird. John James is what stood out for me. SignBird has a great product, a great service. That is undeniable. From the time John and I first spoke we just connected. I found somebody who was passionate about this industry and who was just as dedicated to his clients as I am. What does the SignBird acquisition mean for Outdoorlink clients. Where Outdoorlink has historically been operations focused, insuring lights are on. Reducing utility costs. Focusing on the bottom line expense. This allows us to aid clients with their top line. New revenue. Pitch to proof. Helping with the sales pitch. John James, Founder and CEO, SignBird John James on SignBird's history. The journey for SignBird has always started inside of a billboard company. I worked as an account executive for a large billboard company. There needed to be an improvement on the way out of home is being marketed to advertisers. We were pitching inventory on a four week flight on a digital...for $3,500/slot...but we were using a 15 year old photo to market the premier digital location in out DMA...That is the origin story of SignBird. SignBird is in 27 states and counting...I'm excited to plan out the future with a phenomenal partner like OutdoorLink. SignBird and independent out of home companies. The small to mid-sized independents are one man or one women armies. They are the real estate person. They are the sales person. They are the billing person. They are doing all of these things...Marketing tends to be on the back burner. SignBird has positioned itself to be the marketing engine for a billboard company to take advantage of... Will SignBird remain an independent brand? SignBird stays the same. The name's not changing. I'm not leaving...We just have a fantastic parent company to help us develop new products and services. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

Today's podcast guest is Dr. Rick Wilson, Associate Professor at Texas State University San Marcos, has written extensively about the impact and effectiveness of out of home advertising. Here are some highlights. Rick Wilson, Associate Professor of Marketing, Texas State University How did you get involved in studying out of home advertising? The short answer is that my dissertation to get my doctorate degree...was on out of home advertising...I've always been fascinated by out of home. I love the physicality of it, they way for it to reference the activity you are doing, the way for it to...break through the clutter. You did a 2019 attribution study for the OAAA. What did you do and what did you learn? They asked me to review a number of case studies where the media partners that they used looked at various promotions to see which types of out of home advertising was able to drive sales or recognition or recall and compare that to a control group that was not exposed to the same out of home advertising. Across the 45 different case studies...there was a dramatic increase in whatever variable that they were measuring to judge effectiveness and in some cases the most popular variable looked at was store visits and that increased by 89% compared to the control group...There were a number of difference outcomes they looked at beyond store visits. For example, recall of the brand...they saw a 39% lift...and then also purchase intent...that saw a 23% increase compared to the control group. Creativity does not to increase ad effectiveness unless out of home is placed properly. The industry frequently...uses as a selling point that out of home is a creative medium and can really break through clutter and get noticed and while that is the case some of the research that I reviewed...suggested that...creativity by itself isn't going to break through the clutter unless the ad is situated in an environment where it is more prominent. Whether that means the size of the ad or billboard...it's in the line of sight...and it's not in an environment where it is visually complex...It's one thing to develop an ad that's creative. But it's another thing to make sure that the ad is placed somewhere where it has a greater likelihood of being seen...Advertisers and media planners need to take a stronger role in selecting media locations for ads...It's not enough to just buy a bunch of billboards in a market to get coverage. I think you need to think a little bit deeper. Advertising in a recession. When we see a recession, it's not the time to reduce your advertising budget. It's the time to think differently about your advertising budget, because what are consumers doing. They're doing things differently. Their behavior is changing. They are looking for ways to save money. They are still spending but just spending differently...Think about the message that you are delivering...They are thinking about value as opposed to some of the functions and features which they have been thinking about in the past...Think about how the activities are changing. We saw this during the covid epidemic. People were driving less or they were driving differently. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

On today's Billboard Insider podcast out of home banker Nick Gonzales talks about the out of home debt markets. Nick's bank seeks $1-20 million out of home loans. Here are the highlights. On July 1 Metro Phoenix Bank was acquired by Alerus Financial Corporation. What does the acquisition mean for out of home borrowers? Nick Gonzales, Alerus Financial Corporation We're really well positioned to reach a much larger swath of the out of home industry...It's going to give us the capital...to reach some of these bigger operators...A little bit about Alerus. They are out of Grand Forks, North Dakota. They've been around since 1879. They started as Bank of Grand Forks...We expect our conversion, branding, everything...to be formalized in late September. This acquisition takes Alerus to about $4 billion in total assets. How does the acquisition change your legal lending limit? It essentially doubles it overnight. Whereas at Metro Phoenix Bank we were scraping to get to $10 million loan size...it really gives us a lot of independence on how we structure deals. As a bank lender how do you view the strengths of the out of home advertising industry? We feel bullish about the industry...the reasons why are...cashflow number one, value creation, market demand, overall profitability...those are the strengths. What about cyclicality? We understand that in a recession ad rates can soften, particularly if you don't have a good sales team. At the end of the day we think that risk is small and mitigated by the fact that if you have an advertiser that's been in a location for many years they're not going to give up that prime location for a bad quarter or two... What sorts of out of home loans are you seeking? We're most comfortable with traditional out of home - static, digital billboards...we'll take a look at any deal which makes sense...We're going to look at cashflow, collateral value, advance rate, strength of guarantors...We are going to heavily weight our underwriting to focus on the operational experience of...the management team...If we don't have historic cashflow and it is a true proforma deal but this operator has lead sales for a different operator...we can lean on that strength. Interest rates Our pricing is going to be based on the wall street journal prime rate. We're going to have a spread usually between 1 and 2.5 percent based on risk profile. Fees We're going to have an origination fee. We're going to have a documentation fee. We're going to have a collateral inspection fee...Typically we're going to be around 2%... Do you require an appraisal? We do...not for approval...We do that after approval and as a condition of close...We can go up to 65%. Our preference is to be in the 50-55% range... What borrower information do you want? First and foremost we want to see what industry experience you have and it doesn't necessarily have to be operational experience. Maybe you've had sales experience. Maybe you were an installer...We're going to want to see financial statements, tax returns, an inventory package. Sales sheets are always good, they have pictures, they have addresses, they have coordinates...We want to see leases. We want to see permits. A personal financial statement if we have a personal guarantor. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

On today's Billboard Insider podcast, Blackbird Media CEO Chenault Saunders and President Prentiss Nelson talk about giant digital billboards. Some highlights of the interview The Nashville Sign Blackbird Media owns a spectacular 36' by 38' digital sign in Nashville. Tell us the story about how it came about. My grandfather...bought that sign in the 50's...It had been a coco-cola perm. It was a big static thing. It had a time and temp. So he operated a business there for many years. We started to explore the opportunity to take it digital and ended up having ot go and lobby the metro council here in Nashville...and ended up getting a special provision in the code here in Nashville that allowed us to do digital...after looking at a lot of options...we made the decision that we would try to dgo it along. I started a little company - Blackbird Media. Me hired a couple of folks from the radio business. We went up with the sign and it's been quite an adventure...It's at the intersection of West End Avenue and Broadway....It looks right down the middle of the largest, most important street in Nashville... Nashville sign during digital construction. Photo courtesy of Selective Structures, the sign's fabricator The Digital Install. First it was taking a sign down and it was pretty amazing because a lot of it was made of plywood and we peeled back multiple layers, actually got all the way down to the original coca-cola sign that was there. We had to buttress the structure that was there. It was very challenging. The hardest part was that this property had been used for automotive purposes since the 30's. We were trying to sink these metal pilings into the ground right in between 14 different underground storage tanks which we could not break. Getting city approval I got a call from our land use attorney and he said, look, there's a bill floating through the city council that would outlaw digital billboards in all of these zones and this would apply to you. We went and we talked to them and we said look, this sign has always been here. It's a part of Nashville. It's used as a wayfinder. Why should Nashville not have the best quality sign. The Council and everybody was in favor of it... How do you sell a spectacular? These giant signs - if they are in the kind of places where we have ours...they sell themselves...We have a dual selling plan. We have a national sales plan and a local sales plan. The local sales plan is where we are out in front of the community reaching out, trying to understand when the big events are...with the nationals it's a different animal. What you think about the automated sales platforms (e.g. blip, onescreen, vistar, adomni, adquick…) We've been kind of dipping our toe into automated stuff. It has not been particularly effective on our spectaculars...On the rest of our plant that is more standardized we have dipped our toe in with Vistar, Adomni, Place Exchange through Apparatix and our IBO relationship. We've had some success with that. We're still figuring out how to optimize...We have used Blip...and we've had great success with that especially as of late...We've been pleased with how that's gone...It's money from the sky that we wouldn't have had otherwise. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

On today's Billboard Insider podcast we talk with out of home sales expert Kevin Gephart. Kevin has 37 years experience selling advertising including 12 years selling our of home advertising. He co-published The Ultimate Out of Home Sales Guide together with Billboard Insider. Some highlights of our interview. On the importance of qualifying prospects We had a phenomenal rep in our sales department. She was fearless. She would get on the phone with anybody. I heard her back in the corner saying these incredibly brilliant things to these prospects on the phone and she was getting very frustrated and I had to tell her she's saying all the right things to all the wrong people. Figuring out who your ideal customer profile is seems very basic but I will tell you that when you work in a large company in a larger market they are going to say go after 3M, they're based here, you got Best Buy, go after those people. Those companies are very encumbered with ad agencies and with multiple levels of marketing people. You won't crack those companies in your lifetime. Similarly, the one and two poster for 4 week customer is not going to pay the bills... Somewhere between the one at a time and the Fortune 500 companies is the sweet spot. For me it was multiple locations retail and it was also regional brands. There are a lot of regional brands. Regional coffee companies, candy companies, snack food companies, beer companies, liquor companies. These regional brands will really be excited about what we can do for them... The other thing you want to do when you qualifying is be sure that you find a company who's big enough to matter but also small enough or accessible enough for you to get to the business decision-maker. If the business decision-maker is in Schenectady and you're in Baton Rouge it's not going to work. Make sure you know who you're ideal customer is and have access to them. The myth that sales stops with the sale. You renew an annual contract 52 weeks a year...Sell 52 weeks a year. We all face cancellations. I have a chapter in the book about what to do when you get the dreaded cancellation phone call. But we should know if we're adequately checking in with the customer we should never be blind-sided by cancellations. It happens but it should be a rarity... You can purchase a hard copy of the Ultimate Out of Home Sales Guide for $69.95 by emailing info@billboardinsider.com. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

On this week's Billboard Insider podcast OAAA EVP Government Affairs, Mike Hershey talks about 6 out of home issues to watch. Here are the highlights. Political Spending OAAA EVP Michael Hershey Let's compare 2020 to 2016...we saw an almost doubling in political campaign spending in the most recent presidential election. In 2020 we had $14.4 billion, a doubling from previous. US House and Senate races similarly saw a doubling of dollars - $8.7 billion spent just on house and Senate in 2020 versus $4.1 billion in 2016. ...It's a very tried and true way of getting name ID, furthering your message, maybe even countering an opponent and I think the digital platform...gives greater ease not only in getting up a positive message but countering...How are we positioned in 2022...we have some very, very competitive states...some very competitive senate races... I'll give you one great data point spending January 2022 as compared to last year, out of home is up 31%... Billboard Cases at Supreme Court The obvious one is the city of Austin versus Reagan National. The case was heard by the court in November. The underlying issue is the constitutionality of the Austin ordinance and whether or not...they can treat an on-premise digital sign differently from an off-premise one. ...We're projecting a ruling some time in April or sometime in May. There are two other cases of deep interest to us in the billboard industry that are pending...The city of Baltimore in 2013 levied a tax just on billboards...a few years later Cincinnati did the same. Those were challenged...and went up through their State Supreme Courts and were ruled differently...In Baltimore their authority and their tax was upheld. In Cincinnati their tax was struck down...The Supreme court seems to have taken both cases under consideration and are holding them presently. The thinking is that once they issue a ruling...in Austin Reagan they will also likely provide direction on the Baltimore and Cincinnati cases... State budgets States have has more revenue...they've had a lot of covid program funds that they've received...States find themselves...more flush with revenues than they have in decades...If you look back at the two tax cases that we've mentioned...those resulted from localities that were trying to look for ways to bring in money...Now with states flush with cash...it would seemingly take the...pressure off them to looking for ways to generate excess revenue... Infrastructure Bill The Infrastructure Act has $1.2 billion in funding priorities that would go from the federal government to the states...Everywhere that we are in advertising stands to gain through the federal investment...the federal government is making a big investment in electric vehicles...they want to use the interstate highway system and a network of fuel centers that already exist to try to have an electric vehicle charging station every 50 miles on the interstate highway system. So as an investment goes into alternative vehicles...they are looking at the backbone of interstate highways and places where we already have an advertising presence to achieve that... Privacy The state level has had more developments. Utah has just signed a privacy law. It's the fourth state to do so. California, Virginia Colorado, now Utah. Iowa...may not be far behind in being the fifth state. What's new with cannabis? The best way to answer that is to direct listeners to the OAAA website and a dynamic interactive map that we keep up to date which will allow you to click to a state and see what they have passed... [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

On this week's Billboard Insider podcast Dave Westburg interviewed SignBird founder John James and Formetco Digital Billboard Sales Manager Britt McConnell about how to effectively market digital signs. John James, Signbird John, what's in a good sign photo? The common denominator that everybody can agree on is that...there should be traffic in every photo and brakelights. There should be cars in every photo because that is who we are trying to reach...That is so crucially important whether it's a approach photo or a closeup photo or a glamour shot or a drone shot. The common denominator...is the traffic. How do you capture traffic in a sign photo. We mount a camera on the exterior of the vehicle. The reason we do the exterior is that windshields can get a little dirty and it's hard to get rid of that on camera. You use drones as well It's in our name. Signbird. A bird flies around a billboard...The drone aspect of Signbird is huge. It's a big part of our service... Tell us about the joint venture with Formetco. That has been a partnership that we were working on for quite some time...We have been huge fans of Formetco...It started with Signbird is serving the out of home industry. So is Formetco. For very different reasons we were crossing paths...I was asking the question to Formetco "how can we serve your current clients"...and we came up with a...strategic partnership. Britt, what trends are you seeing in digital billboard sales. Britt McConnell, Formetco Digital Billboard Sales Manager We're seeing a lot of growth in the independent space. Local municipalities have been challenged a lot lately...they're starting to allow digitals where they aren't currently allowed. Resolution is definitely getting tighter and urban locations are on the rise. You're seeing some trends towards 10 mil...There's been a lot of unique builds...We've done some really neat three sided ones...We've also constructed a lot of four sided ones...You're starting to see a lot of verticals. When a client has got an issue with a setback or a power line, you're starting to see people go vertical...You're also seeing some really neat structures with embellishments. Talk about the Formetco/Signbird joint venture. I'm always thinking of ways to help our customers...grow their business...This will give clients some great drone photos, ride sheets, amazing approach photos of their newly installed digital billboards... If I buy a Formetco digital billboard do I get a Signbird promotional package? Correct...We started that back in January. Every single digital billboard which is purchased from us will include that...it really helps the smaller operators who don't have an artist department...the videos are so unique they can be embedded in an email signature...the drone video is really cool. The money shot is when you're hovering about the billboard looking back at the traffic approaching... [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

Today's podcast guest Justin Powell talks about founding Huntington Billboards in the middle of the 2009 great recession and growing the company to 1,800 displays over 13 years. Some of the highlights. How did you enter the out of home business? Justin Powell, Founder and President, Huntington Outdoor I graduated from college. I was 20 years old... I made a big list. I called it my new venture checklist. Everything from restaurants...to insurance companies, on and on and on...my cousin and uncle actually came to me and said Justin there's this billboard down on 75. That seems like a fair business. Why don't you buy that. It was an on-premise sign and I couldn't purchase it for off-premise advertising but that got me thinking... Talk about your first location I found my first location in this town of New Carlisle and very dear landowners who are friends to this day...It was 8' by 20' and a 2 pole structure and cost three times more than it should have and then I spent the next two months knocking on doors trying to rent it. Small Signs I tie everything back to numbers...We are going to build the minimum size sign to derive the best returns. A log of times an 8' by 20' sign will do just as fine as a 12' by 24' if the location is close enough to the road and the visibility is good. How do you find winning locations? CISD. We desire to build billboards on curves. That's the C. On intersections. That's the I. And then the S is speed. Lower speed. If we can get billboards along roads that are 25 mph or 30 mph...And then the last one is Demand...As we install locations we have a weathervane as to what the market can bear and where we have demand... Growing Pains About the time I got to about 70 billboards my occupancy rate was atrocious...It was 40% or something. It was absolutely awful because I was doing everything. I would have nice clothes on and talk to an advertiser and then I would change out of my nice clothes in the car and change into climbing gear and change out a vinyl and then I would chop down trees. I would do land leasing. I would do everything. My little sister at that time - Jena was 17. She looked at me and said "Hey Justin, why don't you let me take over sales. And I'm like yeah sure. She became a partner in the business. And then my brother, he was 16. He came to me and he said, Justin, I think I can build these things for you. Let me do that...On that foundation we continued to build and build and build. We got to about 500 billboards and my sister Jena got elected as State Representative...So we hired a General Manager at that point...things have transitioned a bit. Digital Billboards We had not done digital until the end of 2020. We had some really good locations that needed to be converted...End of 2020 we built our first two signs. We learned a lot from them. And then in 2021 - last year- we put in 22. Whose automated platforms are you connected to. Vistar, Blip. Blip to me is fascinating. It's a very fascinating platform...Whether it's Blip or any of the other services that we use, it's like one ad or two ads for a day and they're paying you $20, or $50 or $100. It's where our industry needs to go...It's found money. It's money we never would have gotten. I think about movie releases...it's reminder advertising... Whose signs We use Formetco. Formetco has done a very good job for us. They look nice and have been very reliable. Formetco seems to know what they are doing...All of the nightmares I thought we would have...we haven't had. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

On today's podcast billboard valuation expert Paul Wright from SignValue gives his opinion of the big three and says that post pandemic values will be higher than pre-pandemic values. Here are the highlights. On Lamar Advertising Well, Lamar, like the other public companies had a great third quarter compared to 2020 but that can be a little bit misleading with all of the companies. Revenues are up two and three fold at each of the public companies. But Lamar has done a good job of controlling lease costs. Their revenues are growing up 23-24% in the third quarter and they’re just managing things very well…We like the deployment of digital they are doing. They’ve had 135 digital units go up in the first three quarters…And we think that will continue into next year. They’ve also made 100 million in acquisitions through the third quarter. Paul Wright, CEO, SignValue OUTFRONT Outfront is recovering really well. They’ve had a pretty solid year again comparing third quarters….Their revenue is up substantially…They’re controlling their lease costs really well and continuing to deploy digital…They put up 34 new digital billboards in the third quarter…I think that transit has also improved for them substantially. We probably saw the biggest overreaction in the transit market…things are turning around for OUTFRONT and we are optimistic about their performance next year. Clear Channel Outdoor Similar situation. They are continuing to improve and turn things around. Not quite as impressive as OUTFRONT. They’ve still got some troubles as you know. They’ve got quite a bit of debt. They put up 17 new digital displays in the third quarter…We like the direction they are headed. One of the issues that we’ve seen with Clear Channel is their lease costs. That has not gone down as much as the other two in terms of a share of their revenue. So they’ll need to work on lease costs a little bit and see where they can improve... The independent out of home companies The other independents are extremely active. We’re seeing a lot of activity from Trailhead and Lindmark and others who are recognizing opportunities and seizing them. And we’re continuing to see much smaller independents who are starting to aggregate signs where they can and make a more efficient plant where they can by doing so. So I would say that 2021 will probably end up being one of the record years in terms of transactions. It’s been a good year for independents to go out and either buy or sell depending on what their strategies are… I can’t let an out of home valuation expert off the podcast without asking about out of home valuations. As I mentioned, the public company multiples peaked in the first quarter. So we’ve seen those trail off and slow down in the second and third quarters and get back into kind of a normal range in terms of multiples or revenue and multiples of cashflow…In terms of values at the end of the day we end up with higher overall values in both the public companies and the independents than we were at in late 2019, pre-pandemic. Is a 10-12X cashflow multiple reasonable for out of home and a 10-14X cashflow multiple reasonable for easements? Yea. That’s reasonable. We’ll see anything from a low of 6-7 times cashflow to highs of 14-15 times cashflow. Generally speaking you’ll see it in the 9-12 range. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

Today’s podcast guest is Collin Huber, Out of Home Advertising Market Manager for Daktronics. Collin talks about what to ask when you buy or replace a digital billboard and why mils matter. Here are the highlights What are some questions digital billboard buyers overlook? Collin Huber, Market Manager - Out of Home Advertising, Daktronics From a product perspective it’s important to ask what capabilities of this display exist to make sure the sign is looking as good at the end of its life as it does when it is first fired up. Another thing to consider is what the expected lifetime really is. Displays are going to perform differently when they are in different environments. And just because a display may be sold with a brightness guarantee and even a 10 year warranty that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to last that long, that it’s going to perform, that it’s going to look as good when it ages… Another question to ask is are there any exclusions in the warranty coverage…There are certain components on the sign that are very expensive to replace…at Daktronics we cover everything that we ship whether its something manufactured here or something that we add on. Also it’s good for a buyer to ask “how can my display be future proof?” Does my control system allow for the need for more memory and processing power or have the ability to transition to a third party operating software. Lastly, it’s important to partner with a company that’s involved in the support of the out of home industry. What other things does the company do to help owner operators to be successful…You recently published an article that touched on Daktronics and our signage legislation team and how we are sometimes able to assist with certain regulatory needs… How should a company think about the replace versus repair tradeoff for a digital billboard? There are three options to consider when you’re getting to the end of the life of a display… Replace it, you can replace the aging digital billboard with new technology. If you go with this option it allows an owner to have a display that has improved image quality, the latest control system capability and in general an overall lower cost of ownership. The second option would be continued maintenance of the aging sign. And in some situations you may be able to extend the life of the display by getting replacement parts ahead of time and refreshing the display…just cleaning the face. As dirt and dust build up on the louvres it will cause the display to look aged…You can use some calibration capabilities that most digital signs have the ability or even moving a discolored older module around the face into an area where its less noticeable… The third option would be to chose to move this aging sign to another location, maybe it’s a secondary location, and maximize the lifetime by getting a couple more years out of it where it’s not competing against some newer displays… What are mils and why do they matter? When you refer to mils, its millimeters and it’s the distance between the LED pixels on the face of the display. So the smaller the number…the closer the distance and the better the resolution…What an owner actually needs is pretty subjective…there is a trend in the industry to go towards a higher resolution product…but you have to keep in mind what your application is. A bulletin alongside a freeway or highway…can get by with less resolution because your audience isn’t going to be very close to it. It’s not going to be able to tell much of a difference between a 20 or a 16 or a 13…Smaller format signs that are closer to the traffic…they are going to need a higher resolution product such as a 16 millimeter. And when we go to smaller format signs or urban type displays we…use 10 millimeter or even less than that which is typically built using a surface mount technology. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

On today's Billboard Insider podcast Adomni founder Jonathan Gudai talks about how out of home is recovering and what he thinks of the capital flowing into programmatic out of home. Here are the highlights. How is out of home recovering from covid? We feel like we are back right now. We expected Q3 and Q4 to have the lions share…but we were surprised by Q2…there was a huge spike and audiences started to move earlier in Q2 than we had forecasted…there are certain venue types that are stronger: digital billboards rode out the wave in a lot more stable way than indoor. But…people are going to restaurants and shopping malls and gyms. With the return of audiences there is a return of dollars. Jonathan Gudai, Founder, Adomni The US out of home industry is $8 billion. If out of home captures just 1% of the $200 billion digital ecosystem (search, online display, social media), US out of home grows by 25% That’s right. Out of home is $8 billion but only 30-40% is digital. So let’s call it a $2.5-3 billion market. We see an opportunity to take it to $10 billion and do that in a five year time frame. Lots of capital is being raised by programmatic out of home platforms. I look at these different startups that are entering our space with energy and a desire to improve the experience of buying digital out of home and they have their own ideas and I was in those shoes 6 years ago…Any new entrants in the marketplace who want to enhance digital out of home…we should welcome. Innovation can come from a lot of different places and oftentimes its from the outside. What do recent capital raises (Vistar/Lamar, OneScreen, Place Exchange) say about programmatic out of home. They’re great signals that a media owner like Lamar which has great business intelligence and market intelligence is saying “this is a very important piece of the ecosystem – we need to support Vistar media…”. For Place Exchange I believe it was a venture backed investment so that’s…having VC’s say this is something that we believe has great growth potential…And OneScreen is an early stage…We see this as not only really good but necessary… Could we see an announcement from Adomni? Yes. You probably will…This is a growth engine…the smart money is realizing that. Are you worried about privacy issues with Lamar investing in a sales platform used by its competitors? This isn’t the first media owner whose made an investment in a technology or platform. It won’t be the last…There needs to be a level playing field…I think Lamar and the other media owners realize that the ecosystem needs multiple players…Lamar has been an incredible partner to Adomni and several of our competitors. They were an early pioneer. Even though they are the largest billboard company in the US they also act in many ways like a startup…I’ve found them to be honest with high integrity…I don’t have any reason to believe that they would make some moves that would change that…We were not at all alarmed by the Vistar investment by Lamar... [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

Today’s podcast guest is John James, the founder of SignBird. Today John talks about selling billboards for Lamar, his proudest out of home sale and what your website needs to effectively market your signs. On getting into out of home My first job out of college – I was working on political campaigns and I was doing different things…in some of our marketing for that particular campaign we looked at doing billboards and that was mainly because the competitor was using out of home. And that’s where I first took a deep dive into what out of home is all about and ended up working at Lamar shortly after… John James, Signbird The out of home sale that I’m proudest of. It was during my time at Lamar. I was just new on the scene and I had inherited some accounts from a sales rep before me…I didn’t want to be a phone rep. I wanted to be boots on the ground. I would travel all these different outer markets…One of the accounts I inherited…was a small marina…It was renewal time and so I put it on my calendar and had the appointment set…This account had been waiting on somebody from the billboard company to walk through their doors – it was a bad situation…his ad copy had come off the board two months too early and he never had the opportunity to renew the ad space…he basically fell through the cracks…I got called every name in the book. It was just a terrible experience. But here’s the thing. This is why I’m proud of the sale…Because after I took it on the chin and got called every name in the book I listened…I walked out of the office…I got to truck and I told myself, I’m not going to take no for an answer. I’m going to do everything I can to solve this client’s problem. And so I walked back in there and you could have heard a pin drop…I said hey man I know you fell through the cracks. I know we dropped the ball, but give me the opportunity to make it right….It turned out he renewed for another 12 months. We kind of became best friends over that situation. What are the keys to taking good sign pictures? The main key – traffic. Put yourself in the shoes of the advertiser. If they’re going to invest their advertising dollars in out of home they want to make sure that investment is working and a great way to imply that out of home is working is that any marketing material, photography, video…we have to make sure that there’s traffic. I see a lot of photos out there…it looks like someone stood right underneath the billboard and pointed the camera up. That’s great from a proof of performance perspective but when it comes to putting this in front of advertisers we have to make sure that traffic is in the frame of the shot. Three musts for an out of home website Content. Good quality content. Call to action. Are you asking for the phone call. Are you asking for the email? A lead generation chatbox. It allows advertisers to speak to you in real time. We can put a notification on your phone just like a text message. If somebody is on your website they can go into that chatbot and they can enter their information and immediately have a conversation with the owner of the billboard company…I did that this morning while I was having coffee. Someone was looking at our website and I had a text message conversation with a potential client. To learn more visit signbird.io or call John James at 256-509-9730, john@signbird.io. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

Today’s podcast guest is Jay Johnson, CFO of Lamar Advertising. Here's what Jay said about out of home's resilience, managing through covid, sustainable leverage, cyber risk and the acquisitions market. What was your biggest surprise about out of home coming into the industry? The resilience of the out of home industry and billboards in particular. You look at this past year it is simply shocking as you look at the rebound that has occurred in out of home…really a testament to the product that we provide…Having spent the last decade at lodging REITs you can imagine how that side is going right now…you just don’t see the same resiliency in other REIT asset classes as you’ve seen in out of home… Jay Johnson, CFO, Lamar Advertising Responding to Covid. ...Lamar already had an existing playbook. We had gone through the global financial crisis and we had a lot of operating leverage to pull and so we began to draw on that experience during 08-09…It was all hands on deck. Everyone chipped in. We made some difficult decisions. One of the things that I’m proud of is that none of the named executives took a cash bonus last year. And I look at some of my counterparts in the lodging industry and I’m somewhat shocked at some of the retention bonuses and things that were paid so I think, you know, it really was a testament to the steady hand of the Reilly family as well. We’re in it for the long haul. Sustainable leverage for an out of home company. When you think about out of home we are closely tied to GDP and how the economy operates. And that leads to a little more of potentially volatility in our earnings. And so it would be very prudent to run lower leverage. From our perspective our target is between 3.5 to 4 times. We kicked above that for a moment in time during the pandemic. We finished Q1 right at 4 times. And really with a full year of covid 19 EBIDTA in our LTM calculation now that should begin to trend down for the balance of the year and we should finish the year handily below 4. So I think, I think, you know that we feel that operating below 4 times is optimal. It allows us to go through the cycle to do a number of things (1) to not have to issue equity which we did not have to do during the covid 19 pandemic, (2) to sustain out dividend which we were able to do, right, we did cut it but we sustained our dividend, and then (3) hopefully play a little offense when those times of disruption come about so we’re fans of lower leverage. Jay, what risks are you thinking about right now? Obviously financial risk, right. For me it’s about protecting the balance sheet. And I think we’ve done that....But aside from financial risk, we’re thinking about cyber. Right. That should be at the top of every management team and board’s mind with the things that are going on. We’ve all seen what’s happened with Colonial Pipeline in the last week. So we’re starting to think about, think very seriously about cyber and what that means and really what that means for our digital network. If there’s one that keeps me up at night...its cyber but we are doing our best and we’re mobilizing to take it head on. On the acquisitions market and the lack of distressed sellers ...The pipeline is accelerating. Q1 was light. In the last several weeks we are starting to see more opportunities. But you hit something that’s really critical here. You look at our margins and you look at where Lamar operates. At the onset of covid 19 everyone thought that there would be distress amongst the middle market independent out of home operators. And quite frankly, they have done OK. They’ve done just as well as we have. You think about, if they are in our markets. And so you’re right, there is no distress, there is no gun to anyone’s head. And so I think a lot of potential sellers are taking the view I’ll wait until I get back to 2019 levels before I test the waters around potentially disposing of a...

Today’s podcast guest is Denise Levine, Chief Revenue Officer of Branded Cities a 20 year old out of home company which specializes in iconic urban out of home locations. She talks about what it's like selling iconic urban out of home assets. Here are the highlights. Review Branded Cities history and current plant. Denise Levine, Chief Revenue Officer, Branded Cities We’re 20 years in the out of home industry. Founded in 1999 by Steve Ellman in one single market, in Phoenix Arizona. That’s where our corporate headquarters are…We have 9 sales offices now and are in 15 markets. We are going on over 3,000 assets, spectacular, iconic, throughout the US and Canada…We’re about 50% digital in the US. Things have been really moving for us… What it’s like selling iconic locations This is what clients are looking for. It’s a significant amplification in their social media. Clients, celebrities…They’re doing these so that they can stand in front of the boards and post on social. Some of them are getting millions of views…That’s our portfolio. How are your markets been recovering from Covid? Things are coming back. We are seeing real estate…Airbnb, the alcohol industry, all of the fantasy sports gaming – FanDuel, BetMGM and Draftkings have been really kind and good to the out of home industry. It’s been coming back full force because of all of the digital activity…Fortunately due to the profile of our sites we didn’t feel the squeeze as much… What’s necessary for out of home to take more of the total ad spend? We have to make out of home inventory easier to buy for the buyers, for the agencies, for the clients direct. We have to support inventory by continuing to be audited. We need media operators to continue to invest in technology whether it’s digital or back-end systems…We need to invest in the right people…We formed a revenue growth committee within the OAAA…it’s the first time that all the chief revenue officers get together…as a team to help grow this industry. Anna Bager has done a great job pulling us all together… Branded Cities Harmon Corner Billboard, Las Vegas There's still a role for vinyl They are just as in demand. Something that can’t be replaced either. There’s an impactful message there…Some of the top DMA markets don’t allow digital…so if you have an advertiser who is focusing on and needs that DMA…We can still offer that… What tips do you have for a young person just starting in out of home sales. The person should be nimble and agile and keep up with trends. Able to take no for an answer and have the strength and the force to move on…and have the courage…to go to clients and reach out to clients directly, and to call on agencies and buying services…to ask for strategies. When you have those meetings with clients to find out what the strategies are so we can go back to our creative teams and we can actually come up with some brilliant, clever, different ideas to present…I always say plant the seeds. Because if you’re planting the seeds, even in a time of covid, they will grow. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement

Today's podcast guest Melody Roberts, Owner | Chief Creative Officer, of Out of Home Creative talks about how to give out of home clients a great creative experience. Here are the highlights. How did COVID impact your business? Melody Roberts Owner | Chief Creative Officer Out of Home Creative Probably like most, I had a downturn through June. And then, in July, I started seeing an uptick in requests and reaching out to clients and billboard companies to work with them on how we could use digital billboards to target businesses, whether it was in-kind or paid. By the end of the year, things started picking up. Because my clients are all over the country, it was a very different outlook than being in one specific market, and so with that, we were all sharing that we were seeing an increase in business. And now, since the new year has started, it's completely different. I've been very busy with work. How do we give our out of home clients a better creative experience? By talking directly to clients about creative. A recurring issue across my desk is that I'm being contacted by a business after they have hired a designer or the outdoor company offered to do the creative, and the client is not happy with the outcome. You'd be surprised to know that most of the client's frustration is because they couldn't talk to a designer. By this time, they've gone through several revisions, they're frustrated going back and forth and running up against the posting date, and now they are contacting me to start the process all over again. So for me, it's engaging and talking with your client. What is the optimum role for the sales rep? Including the salesperson on the project and the call helps the overall process. The salesperson knows where you are as far as proofs, revisions, approvals. I think it also helps sales learn how the designer asks their questions to focus on what the advertisement should portray. I've worked with really creative salespeople who want to be involved, and I've worked with some who don't. Either way, listening in on calls can provide helpful tips when talking to another client. I've been in meetings where the client has appreciated that the designer, salesperson, and sales manager were all present. It speaks volumes when everyone is working as a team. It also minimizes revisions because everyone is not going back and forth because something wasn't communicated properly. Once I get one or two emails on something, I'll schedule a call at that point. When clients don't like an Ad: A lot of times, clients can kneejerk a reaction and say, "I don't like this." But when you talk to them and say, "what didn't you like," they say, "I didn't like that color," or "I don't like that font." It isn't that they don't like the concept. But they don't know how to put it in words in an email. It comes back to communication. [wpforms id="9787"] Paid Advertisement